Why Christians Hang On To Ot

[Newlife]

I think most Christians would love to be able to get rid of the Old Testament so that they would no longer have to explain some of the embarrassing or unexplainable sections. They love to say that they are now under the new covenant or under grace but they have a problem getting rid of it completely. This is what they want to retain from the OT: The story of creation, the 10 commandments (actually just 9 of the 10, they don't like the Sabbath),the ban on homosexuality and parts of several books that they think are prophetic. There may be a few I've missed. Help me out. 

[Ellinas]

There is one very good reason why the Old Testament cannot be ditched for (especially conservative) Christians.

 

Christianity, with it's message of salvation, redemption, etc and ad nauseam, makes no sense unless the creation and fall are true.  Ditch them, the building loses it's foundation and collapses.

[directionless]

They would keep Genesis, Isaiah, Psalms, Proverbs, Daniel, ... ?

 

I'm not sure what else most Christians like to read in the OT.

[BrotherJosh]

It also adds to Christian's feelings of "history". If the religion is old and ancient that somehow makes it "truthier". 

[sdelsolray]

I think most Christians would love to be able to get rid of the Old Testament so that they would no longer have to explain some of the embarrassing or unexplainable sections. They love to say that they are now under the new covenant or under grace but they have a problem getting rid of it completely. This is what they want to retain from the OT: The story of creation, the 10 commandments (actually just 9 of the 10, they don't like the Sabbath),the ban on homosexuality and parts of several books that they think are prophetic. There may be a few I've missed. Help me out. 

I think most Christians hold onto the Old Testament because, like virtually everything else relating to that religion, they are indoctrinated to do so.  It's not as if they think about it, or are given a choice, or spend time weighing the benefits/burdens of maintaining such a position, or invest their intellect towards developing a consistent philosophical stance.  It's just a symptom and outcome of being infected with the Christian virus, and not much more.

[Bhim]

I think most Christians would love to be able to get rid of the Old Testament so that they would no longer have to explain some of the embarrassing or unexplainable sections. They love to say that they are now under the new covenant or under grace but they have a problem getting rid of it completely. This is what they want to retain from the OT: The story of creation, the 10 commandments (actually just 9 of the 10, they don't like the Sabbath),the ban on homosexuality and parts of several books that they think are prophetic. There may be a few I've missed. Help me out.

I do see your point. But here's something you might want to consider: for all the other moral evils taught in the Old Testament, not once does it ever say that anyone who doesn't believe in its doctrines or convert to its prescribed religion will burn in an eternal hell pf any sort. It seems to me that Jesus taught a far greater evil than Moses or any Israelite prophet who came after him.

[mymistake]

They are stuck with it.  Some Christians turn the entire OT into a metaphoric poem so they can ignore it.  They pretend it means nothing at all.  But they cant jettison it because the New Testament authors hitched their wagon to the OT.  To declare that false would be to deny the authenticity of the Christian core beliefs.  Jesus would be reduced to a crazy person who claimed to be the son of God.

[Newlife]

The last church I belonged to took several of the OT books and interrupted them in light of what they perceived to now be happening in the world. Needless to say, the explanations were stretching the meaning of the original.

[Roz]

I think most Christians would love to be able to get rid of the Old Testament so that they would no longer have to explain some of the embarrassing or unexplainable sections. They love to say that they are now under the new covenant or under grace but they have a problem getting rid of it completely. This is what they want to retain from the OT: The story of creation, the 10 commandments (actually just 9 of the 10, they don't like the Sabbath),the ban on homosexuality and parts of several books that they think are prophetic. There may be a few I've missed. Help me out. 

 

They can't let it go, or else they would lose a good part of their religion's structure.  So they keep it, with all of its genocide, slavery, and mass rape of both genders.

[Castiel233]

Genesis is the foundation stone for the entire faith, give that up and the building collapses.

[Roz]

Imagine the utter chaos that would ensue if major denominational leaders would come out and say "ok folks, we're dismissing leviticus, deutoronomy, the minor prophets, etc."

They would splinter into many many more denominations.  I suspect they're holding on to keep the peace.  

 

We've all been to those churches where there's religious liberal and conservative members (with respect to christianity, not politics).  More fractures and splits = less money.  Doesn't matter if they keep genesis, exodus, and psalms.  They're going to lose revenue.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

If you don't have a disease, you can't sell the cure.  The old testament provides sin; the new testament, redemption.  Plus, all the angry smiting, judging, punishing, and slavery god committed in response to people's wickedness in the old testament provides the perfect backdrop for the message of salvation by grace through faith.

[francesco]

because christians believe that jesus fulfill the OT

[Wololo]

The only reason you even ask this question is because you refuse to acknowledge the historical-critical method when interpreting the Old Testament. The Old Testament shouldn't be discarded because it's still quite valid, so long as you're willing to think about it with an ancient cultural understanding, which by your mockery, you have shown that you have none of. I like to read very old religious texts because there is a lot to learn about the culture of the people and their beliefs. I don't discard any ancient texts as invalid. I may not agree with their underlying philosophy, or believe their claims, but to discard them is foolish.

[gall]

The only reason you even ask this question is because you refuse to acknowledge the historical-critical method when interpreting the Old Testament. The Old Testament shouldn't be discarded because it's still quite valid, so long as you're willing to think about it with an ancient cultural understanding, which by your mockery, you have shown that you have none of. I like to read very old religious texts because there is a lot to learn about the culture of the people and their beliefs. I don't discard any ancient texts as invalid. I may not agree with their underlying philosophy, or believe their claims, but to discard them is foolish.

 

discarding them from existence is not what this thread is even talking about.

 

The reference to discarding it was simply that most christians ignore it flat out like it was never there.

 

As a historical reference for how are ancient and barbaric ancestors once lived and what we should never allow to happen again it is very relevent. As a teaching tool for those that want to evolve their cultures away from violence and racism and genocide we should surely look to it as a lesson in how it all went wrong.

 

For christians to look at it and say its totally ok and we are just gonna go ahead and forget it ever was written or supposedly followed (I personally think the book Dune has about as much credibility) is hard to swallow for secular people who already largely see christians as bad hypocrits.

 

For me neither half of that fantasy book means anything. It simply shows us how others live and what they believe. You could accept that and move on and give us the freedom to just say it is mostly fiction but I have met few christians in my life who will give the same freedom they want to believe in wild fantasy to those that choose not to.

[Wololo]

I actually agree with the first half of your post but I needed to get a few things in there. The New Testament takes a similar approach (not the part about ignoring...)

[Blood]

They must have the OT because it legitimates their religion through its antiquity, plus it has essential concepts like The Fall, supposed prophecies of Jesus, etc. 

 

On the other hand, they are embarrassed by the OT because of its crudities, the genocidal aspect of Yahweh Sabaoth, etc. 

 

Some highly sophisticated tools of deception have been developed over the decades to smooth out these difficulties. 

[Justus]

Genesis is the foundation stone for the entire faith, give that up and the building collapses.

 

You know why they call it abiogenesis?

[Castiel233]

 

Genesis is the foundation stone for the entire faith, give that up and the building collapses.

 

You know why they call it abiogenesis?

 

Please enlighten me...............I love debating the merits of The Bible!

[Burny]

The only reason you even ask this question is because you refuse to acknowledge the historical-critical method when interpreting the Old Testament. The Old Testament shouldn't be discarded because it's still quite valid, so long as you're willing to think about it with an ancient cultural understanding, which by your mockery, you have shown that you have none of. I like to read very old religious texts because there is a lot to learn about the culture of the people and their beliefs. I don't discard any ancient texts as invalid. I may not agree with their underlying philosophy, or believe their claims, but to discard them is foolish.

 

Yes, because the eternal creator of Heaven and Earth just HAD to work within existing primitive cultural contexts in the OT! What a joke, I'm so sick of hearing this excuse by modern xtians. God could have used his supposed vastly superior intellect and morality to work up a NEW and DIFFERENT culture where there was no slavery, sexism, abuse or incest. This new cultural could have been a shining light to all future generations about the goodness of God.

 

Instead we're left with 'interpretations through ancient cultural context' - which is simply code for ignoring what modern culture won't tolerate anymore and doing whatever the heck you want while still being somehow 'comforted' that you are obeying Jesus and going to Heaven when you die. I've always said that if God couldn't foresee the mass confusion all of his 'working with an ancient culture' would cause later, he's not the kind of God that deserves respect or attention. He's a monster that toys with people who aren't lucky enough to have a broad historical / cultural / religious understanding.

[Burny]

I think most Christians would love to be able to get rid of the Old Testament so that they would no longer have to explain some of the embarrassing or unexplainable sections. They love to say that they are now under the new covenant or under grace but they have a problem getting rid of it completely. This is what they want to retain from the OT: The story of creation, the 10 commandments (actually just 9 of the 10, they don't like the Sabbath),the ban on homosexuality and parts of several books that they think are prophetic. There may be a few I've missed. Help me out. 

 

There is no way that xtians can legitimately get rid of the OT although for obvious reasons, they'd love to. Without OT prophecy supposedly fulfilled in JC there is no legitimacy to his (or rather Paul's) claims for his divinity - lots of ancients claimed divinity but only JC was 'legitimately prophesied'.

 

The other huge issue that has already been mentioned is the concept of original sin. Without original sin there is no need for a savior. Evolution is already a much bigger issue than modern xtians think, because if there's no first human, how can there be original sin, committed by the first human? Even without a literal creation, modern xtians are either forced to believe that sin is part of the core fabric of God's 'intelligent design' or that somehow evolution isn't true.

 

Xians also believe in the second coming, in one form or another. None of this makes sense without the Jewish background to the story, which is the OT.

 

My theory is that xianity will eventually become so 'airy' and 'unreal' that Jesus will just be a guru with some good teachings that might be a good idea to follow. Other than that, old xtian doctrines and theologies will slowly continue to be watered down and irrelevant until one day someone will notice that there is no good reason to indoctrinate children with flying horses, floods, people floating into the air, burning bushes that don't burn and the loads of other fantasy that is ancient folk lore.

[mymistake]

The only reason you even ask this question is because you refuse to acknowledge the historical-critical method when interpreting the Old Testament. The Old Testament shouldn't be discarded because it's still quite valid, so long as you're willing to think about it with an ancient cultural understanding, which by your mockery, you have shown that you have none of. I like to read very old religious texts because there is a lot to learn about the culture of the people and their beliefs. I don't discard any ancient texts as invalid. I may not agree with their underlying philosophy, or believe their claims, but to discard them is foolish.

 

Of course the Old Testament has value and is useful in cultural anthropology.  The Old Testament gives us insight into the cultures that created and shaped this literature.  It shows us how several religions evolved over time.  In that context the Old Testament is solid evidence of what bronze age tribes believed.

 

But that doesn't make Dagon or Baal real.  The Egyptian Book of the Dead is just as useful but that doesn't make Horus or Ra real.  And of course none of it makes Yahweh or Christ real.  So we shouldn't burn the Bible.  But we also shouldn't elevate the Bible higher than any other religious work from antiquity.  The Bible is just as valuable as pagan idols from the Neolithic period.

[mymistake]

 

Yes, because the eternal creator of Heaven and Earth just HAD to work within existing primitive cultural contexts in the OT! What a joke, I'm so sick of hearing this excuse by modern xtians. God could have used his supposed vastly superior intellect and morality to work up a NEW and DIFFERENT culture where there was no slavery, sexism, abuse or incest. This new cultural could have been a shining light to all future generations about the goodness of God.

 

Instead we're left with 'interpretations through ancient cultural context' - which is simply code for ignoring what modern culture won't tolerate anymore and doing whatever the heck you want while still being somehow 'comforted' that you are obeying Jesus and going to Heaven when you die. I've always said that if God couldn't foresee the mass confusion all of his 'working with an ancient culture' would cause later, he's not the kind of God that deserves respect or attention. He's a monster that toys with people who aren't lucky enough to have a broad historical / cultural / religious understanding.

 

 

Yes.  When God wants his people to have no other gods before him then God dictates this to them no questions asked.  The penalty for disobedience is death.  God doesn't care about their culture.  God doesn't care about their society.  God gets what God wants or else you die!

 

Oh but when it comes to owning slaves or treating women like they are human beings suddenly God can't dictate what God wants.  Now God is trapped and powerless because there is a culture God has to work through and it's just too hard.

 

It makes much more sense that God was invented by men who made God say whatever they wanted God to say.  Then "Have no other gods before Me" is talking about which temple get the money.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

The Old Testament shouldn't be discarded because it's still quite valid, so long as you're willing to think about it with an ancient cultural understanding,

Right.  Because everybody knows you can only understand Romeo and Juliet if you are a British Historian and are also fluent in the high language of the Elizabethan Era.

 

IF the bible really were the divine revelation of an omniscient god, then we wouldn't need to understand it within the context of the time and culture in which it were written.  It would still mean the same today as it did then; because god is the same today, yesterday, and forevermore.

[gall]

 

The only reason you even ask this question is because you refuse to acknowledge the historical-critical method when interpreting the Old Testament. The Old Testament shouldn't be discarded because it's still quite valid, so long as you're willing to think about it with an ancient cultural understanding, which by your mockery, you have shown that you have none of. I like to read very old religious texts because there is a lot to learn about the culture of the people and their beliefs. I don't discard any ancient texts as invalid. I may not agree with their underlying philosophy, or believe their claims, but to discard them is foolish.

 

Of course the Old Testament has value and is useful in cultural anthropology.  The Old Testament gives us insight into the cultures that created and shaped this literature.  It shows us how several religions evolved over time.  In that context the Old Testament is solid evidence of what bronze age tribes believed.

 

But that doesn't make Dagon or Baal real.  The Egyptian Book of the Dead is just as useful but that doesn't make Horus or Ra real.  And of course none of it makes Yahweh or Christ real.  So we shouldn't burn the Bible.  But we also shouldn't elevate the Bible higher than any other religious work from antiquity.  The Bible is just as valuable as pagan idols from the Neolithic period.

 

 

The true value they should hold for the world is to show us what culture use to be and where we were, NOT where we are going. Thankfully every year more and more people realize that belief in this sort of thing is primitive and barbaric. It really is only a matter of time before this all comes to a head and we deal with it as a race and move on, or we let it destory us. The human race is still here and we are good at fighting for our survival. I think in the long run we will succeed and this will all be academic in a couple hundred more years.