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Goodbye Jesus

What Defines And Drives A Relationship


Guest end3

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Endo,

 

Serious request. Please find a focus for your primary statement and try to help this threadset not become clustered coitus moving in circular motion within a deep fried raised pastry.

 

Thanks kindly

kL

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Back again, End.

.

.

.

Please bear in mind what Kevin's written about your input.

Add it to what I'm going to write below and then ask yourself the serious question, "Is the Den really the best place for what I'm trying to do here?"

 

1.

Be honest now.  You don't really understand how to construct a valid, logical argument, do you?

 

2.

Your thinking isn't guided by facts and logic, but mostly by faith and hope and speculation... isn't that so?

 

3.

You didn't know that your 'unknown mechanisms' argument is actually a fallacious argument from ignorance ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance ) did you?

 

4.

The others in this thread are not kindly disposed towards you - this is the Den after all and you are Christian meat for the Lions.

 

5.

They won't come on board with and join you in your speculations, your hopes and your leaps of faith.

Instead, they'll cut you to pieces for not following the proper rules of valid, logical argument. This is what happens in the Den.  I do it here all the time.  So you really should be at all surprised or offended if you can't make any headway and they don't cut you any slack.  That's not what happens here.  This is the Den.

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.

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End, can't you see from this list and from the warning Kevin's given you that the Den isn't the place for what you're trying to do here?

 

I'm telling you this with all due respect and with complete honesty.

Please take your speculations and faith-based thinking out of the Den and into another section where you won't get mauled.  This place is a jungle and no matter much you'd like it to be different and no matter how much you think it should be different - it's just not going to change.

 

You're going to get frustrated, hurt, angry and confused.

The others will tear into you without mercy - they'll mock your failings, pour scorn on your mistakes and treat you as their prey.  Why?  Because this is the Den.  Why?  Because they're allowed to do these things here.  Why?  Because by coming here, you've put yourself in harm's way.

.

.

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End, please rethink this and take yourself out of the Den on this one.

 

You'll only get hurt further if you stay.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

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Endo,

 

Serious request. Please find a focus for your primary statement and try to help this threadset not become clustered coitus moving in circular motion within a deep fried raised pastry.

 

Thanks kindly

 

kL

Thanks K,

 

Was wanting to have a discussion of ideas. Have had opinions from several people that this is not possible with the mankees. Had ALREADY requested that it be moved to a more civil place and was deferred to asking you, Chris, or Superdave. Please let me know if one of you might move it to the Coliseum.

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Endo,

 

Serious request. Please find a focus for your primary statement and try to help this threadset not become clustered coitus moving in circular motion within a deep fried raised pastry.

 

Thanks kindly

 

kL

 

Hey SNC, Thanks.

 

I was just thinking that these are the type of conversations that make me want to drink myself into unconsciousness......Wendybanghead.gif

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The others will tear into you without mercy - they'll mock your failings, pour scorn on your mistakes and treat you as their prey.  Why?  Because this is the Den.  Why?  Because they're allowed to do these things here.  Why?  Because by coming here, you've put yourself in harm's way.

 

 

I can't wait. Anyone got some popcorn?

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End I'm with BAA--just start over with a new, improved OP in the Colloseum.

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Life is not demonstrated to be eternal, it seems everything in the universe is inter-related.

 

What's the premise of the argument again? I really don't understand this.

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To be brutally honest, it's not that End3 can't construct logical arguments.  I submit that he can, and he's demonstrated that on other threads where religion's not concerned.  I actually agreed with him a few times and you know he and I don't get along.

 

It's the christian religion that's illogical to begin with.

 

You know that parable about building a house on sand vs. foundation?  We've proven time and again that christianity's worse than sand, and yet the christians continually use it.  Why?  The alternative is the 'red-pill.'

 

EDIT:  This is why End3's arguments always have that gap in them.  Case in point, he's right that genetics does play a role in the general predispositions of human beings, we're animals after all.  He then attempts to tie it as the reason his christian god wiped out tribes of people.  He then backtracks like crazy, admitting no fault, feigning ignorance, and deflecting questions posed at him.

 

What's ironic about all of this is that I saw his posts about militant muslims and their brutality.  He dismisses and excuses one set of barbarism while condemning another.  Why?  Religious goggles. 

 

It's the religion that's fucked up.  No, I'm not giving any christian a pass, and I don't expect any passes in return.  If there's any fault in my arguments please as always feel free to point them out.  But I say it's why christians (end, IH, thumb, etc.) fail in the Den.

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And for the record, I submit that the Den's a seemingly hostile place to Christians because the Ex'Cs know the ins and outs of the bible.  When christians come here and attempt to play and preach, they often get a shock at how real apostates think vs what they're told in church concerning non-believers.

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To be brutally honest, it's not that End3 can't construct logical arguments.  I submit that he can, and he's demonstrated that on other threads where religion's not concerned.  I actually agreed with him a few times and you know he and I don't get along.

 

It's the christian religion that's illogical to begin with.

 

You know that parable about building a house on sand vs. foundation?  We've proven time and again that christianity's worse than sand, and yet the christians continually use it.  Why?  The alternative is the 'red-pill.'

This illustrates the point I am trying to make very well. If we can't sacrifice to move off of our personal positions, that is, commune, and know, and have a relationship with the other, then the thread will be locked, figurative "death". If we take the time to HEAR the other through paining ourselves. then we might understand each other more....which is life. No one wants isolation. This site proves it.

 

And it's described in John 17 in my opinion. If this thread moves any further, great. If not, it pretty much makes the case in my mind.

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To be brutally honest, it's not that End3 can't construct logical arguments.  I submit that he can, and he's demonstrated that on other threads where religion's not concerned.  I actually agreed with him a few times and you know he and I don't get along.

 

It's the christian religion that's illogical to begin with.

 

You know that parable about building a house on sand vs. foundation?  We've proven time and again that christianity's worse than sand, and yet the christians continually use it.  Why?  The alternative is the 'red-pill.'

This illustrates the point I am trying to make very well. If we can't sacrifice to move off of our personal positions, that is, commune, and know, and have a relationship with the other, then the thread will be locked, figurative "death". If we take the time to HEAR the other through paining ourselves. then we might understand each other more....which is life. No one wants isolation. This site proves it.

 

And it's described in John 17 in my opinion. If this thread moves any further, great. If not, it pretty much makes the case in my mind.

 

 

End, it doesn't illustrate your original points at all.  You attempt to tie human fellowship and camaraderie with your biblical John 17 and your christian god.  That's illogical.  You expect us to believe that's not what you're trying to do?

 

We know your bible End, we know the tenets of that religion.  This is why we can spot your argument flaws.

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This is what I suspect End3 is ultimately trying to prove.

 

1.  humans need social interaction.

2.  socialization seems to fit with a chapter in my holy book

3.  see, that's one proof that my holy book know what it's talking about

 

If it were any other religion (take Islam as an example) than his, he would immediately notice the flaws in the argument.  But he can't.  It's religion.

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I'm having some serious problems following this one.

 

If "relationship" is something as all-pervading and fundamental as the interactions of matter, of time and space itself, I do not understand how it can be re-framed and identified as conforming to a very specific religious function within a very specific religion, common to just one among nearly infinite philosophical viewpoints in just one species, on just this one tiny planet. How are you identifying this sense of "relationship" as specifically Christian? This is a titanic logical leap, and, so far, has not been clarified.

 

(And no, "because: faith" is not going to cut it at all. Many, many, many religions frame their faith in terms of relationship. The first act in so many mythologies is the primal pair having sex, for this exact reason. It's why prayer or propitiation in any sense is possible in these ideologies. Why pray to something that has no relationship? All religions have faith, and all religions have relationship, in this sense, or - by definition - they're not religions. The problem here is why Christianity? Faith is insufficient to distinguish between all these viewpoints, because they all have that in common. You need independent proof.)

 

My main issue here is scale.

 

How do you manage to bridge the gap between the all-encompassing interactions of the universe (have a look at these, for scale. Seriously) and then try to squish it into the infinitesimally small viewpoint of a tribal group of humans (we are as a speck of dust in the infinite void of space and time, and you fit your God into that) that can be summed up in one of their cultural productions, John 17.  What. How, precisely, do you justify this incredible leap to conclusions? That's a writing of just one species, a production of just one biological template of relationship. What then, the God of the Prairie Voles? Or Wolf Spiders. Or, for that matter, E. coli. The God of the Bible, of John 17, is so small, narrow, and petty, by comparison.

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This is what I suspect End3 is ultimately trying to prove.

 

1.  humans need social interaction.

2.  socialization seems to fit with a chapter in my holy book

3.  see, that's one proof that my holy book know what it's talking about

 

If it were any other religion (take Islam as an example) than his, he would immediately notice the flaws in the argument.  But he can't.  It's religion.

So you are saying that humans don't need social interaction? That isolation is conducive to figurative "life"? Need we belabor this point? How can we NOT put it in the fact category, the fact list?

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This is what I suspect End3 is ultimately trying to prove.

 

1.  humans need social interaction.

2.  socialization seems to fit with a chapter in my holy book

3.  see, that's one proof that my holy book know what it's talking about

 

If it were any other religion (take Islam as an example) than his, he would immediately notice the flaws in the argument.  But he can't.  It's religion.

So you are saying that humans don't need social interaction? That isolation is conducive to figurative "life"? Need we belabor this point? How can we NOT put it in the fact category, the fact list?

 

 

Another attempt to lie and misdirect.  "So you're saying that humans don't need social interaction?" 

My position on that in the early parts of this thread.  http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/65391-what-defines-and-drives-a-relationship/?p=1003919

 

The christian attempts to lie and misdirect.  So I stand with my premise.  This is what End3's trying to bridge throughout this conversation:

 

1.  humans need social interaction.

2.  socialization seems to fit with a chapter in my holy book

3.  see, that's one proof that my holy book know what it's talking about

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This is what I suspect End3 is ultimately trying to prove.

 

1.  humans need social interaction.

2.  socialization seems to fit with a chapter in my holy book

3.  see, that's one proof that my holy book know what it's talking about

 

If it were any other religion (take Islam as an example) than his, he would immediately notice the flaws in the argument.  But he can't.  It's religion.

So you are saying that humans don't need social interaction? That isolation is conducive to figurative "life"? Need we belabor this point? How can we NOT put it in the fact category, the fact list?

 

 

Another attempt to lie and misdirect.  "So you're saying that humans don't need social interaction?" 

My position on that in the early parts of this thread.  http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/65391-what-defines-and-drives-a-relationship/?p=1003919

 

The christian attempts to lie and misdirect.  So I stand with my premise.  This is what End3's trying to bridge throughout this conversation:

 

1.  humans need social interaction.

2.  socialization seems to fit with a chapter in my holy book

3.  see, that's one proof that my holy book know what it's talking about

 

For the record Roz...yes to two and three as well....this is what I believe it's saying. If it is saying that and reality suggests that, then how is it false?

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I'm having some serious problems following this one.

 

If "relationship" is something as all-pervading and fundamental as the interactions of matter, of time and space itself, I do not understand how it can be re-framed and identified as conforming to a very specific religious function within a very specific religion, common to just one among nearly infinite philosophical viewpoints in just one species, on just this one tiny planet. How are you identifying this sense of "relationship" as specifically Christian? This is a titanic logical leap, and, so far, has not been clarified.

 

(And no, "because: faith" is not going to cut it at all. Many, many, many religions frame their faith in terms of relationship. The first act in so many mythologies is the primal pair having sex, for this exact reason. It's why prayer or propitiation in any sense is possible in these ideologies. Why pray to something that has no relationship? All religions have faith, and all religions have relationship, in this sense, or - by definition - they're not religions. The problem here is why Christianity? Faith is insufficient to distinguish between all these viewpoints, because they all have that in common. You need independent proof.)

 

My main issue here is scale.

 

How do you manage to bridge the gap between the all-encompassing interactions of the universe (have a look at these, for scale. Seriously) and then try to squish it into the infinitesimally small viewpoint of a tribal group of humans (we are as a speck of dust in the infinite void of space and time, and you fit your God into that) that can be summed up in one of their cultural productions, John 17.  What. How, precisely, do you justify this incredible leap to conclusions? That's a writing of just one species, a production of just one biological template of relationship. What then, the God of the Prairie Voles? Or Wolf Spiders. Or, for that matter, E. coli. The God of the Bible, of John 17, is so small, narrow, and petty, by comparison.

This is the physical half of the question Ex. Great leap of thought. It's my opinion that the physical behaves very much like the Spiritual in framework. Since this is wonderfully difficult to discuss, could we please set it aside for a bit?

 

Thank you.

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For the record Roz...yes to two and three as well....this is what I believe it's saying. If it is saying that and reality suggests that, then how is it false?

 

 

You are claiming that John 17 is true, the entirety of it. 

 

17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

---You are asserting that your very specific christian god is talking to himself, you are asserting that this is true.

 

I know you cannot see it because you have christian goggles on, but let's try it from a Muslim's perspective.

 

1.  humans need social interaction.

2.  socialization seems to fit with a chapter in my holy book

3.  see, that's one proof that my holy book know what it's talking about

 

You are now screaming bloody havoc at the Muslim's logic and attempts at argument.  Why?  Because the Muslim is now claiming that his holy book (and all the things therein) are true.

 

This is what you've attempted with genetic predispositions and your god's genocides.  "It must be true because genetics plays a role in people's character!"

 

This is why your arguments fail at logic, your god is the one killing it.

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This is going to go the way of End's other threads.

 

He expects us to accept his premises regarding his religion and his attempts to tie it in with natural phenomena.  He then cries, whines, name calls, and curses when he doesn't get his way.

 

Religion is the fountain of youth, it makes those who drink it unable to see reality and the flaws of their own thinking.

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To be brutally honest, it's not that End3 can't construct logical arguments.  I submit that he can, and he's demonstrated that on other threads where religion's not concerned.  I actually agreed with him a few times and you know he and I don't get along.

 

It's the christian religion that's illogical to begin with.

 

You know that parable about building a house on sand vs. foundation?  We've proven time and again that christianity's worse than sand, and yet the christians continually use it.  Why?  The alternative is the 'red-pill.'

This illustrates the point I am trying to make very well.

 

Actually... no it doesn't.  Sorry End, but I have to call it as it is.  

 

If we can't sacrifice to move off of our personal positions, that is, commune, and know, and have a relationship with the other, then the thread will be locked, figurative "death". 

 

The Den isn't a place where we Lions want to sacrifice anything, where we want to commune with any Christians and where we want to have a relationship with them.  The Den is a place where Christians are toast.  Where they enter at their peril.  Where the Lions prowl round, looking for Christian meat to devour.

 

Going to Africa and asking a (real) lion that's about to attack you to stop and commune with you is a death sentence, End.  

Ditto here. You really, really have to stop thinking that the Den is a safe place for you.  It isn't.  In the Den, we Lions are under no obligation or expectation to treat you kindly, with respect or with tolerance.  We simply won't entertain your appeals to faith or your speculations.  Instead we'll tear apart your faulty arguments, your flawed logic and your mistakes.

 

Yes, this thread will die - but that won't be because we lack a meaningful relationship with you, End.

No. It'll be because you've blithely walked into the Den with the word, "Prey" written on your metaphorical forehead, wrongly expecting us NOT to attack and kill you.   Lions attack and kill.  It's what we do.  There are no exceptions.  You are not exempt - no matter how much you think you should be!

 

If we take the time to HEAR the other through paining ourselves. then we might understand each other more....which is life. No one wants isolation. This site proves it.

 

The Den is not a place where the Lions go to hear or understand Christians.  

It's where they go to kill and eat them.  That's why it's called the Lion's Den.  This isn't our version of the Book of Daniel, where God closes the mouths of the lions and his servant goes unharmed.  Nope!  It's our version of the Roman Coliseum, where Christians are killed and eaten by us.  Stop thinking of this place as somewhere safe, End!  It isn't.  Go elsewhere.   Please.

 

And it's described in John 17 in my opinion. If this thread moves any further, great. If not, it pretty much makes the case in my mind.

 

 

End...

 

I'm pleading with you on this one.  

Can't you see?  Don't you understand?  Don't you get it?  

 

Your calls for tolerance, understanding and better relationships between us will ALWAYS be ignored by us in the Den.

Your expectations of tolerance, understanding and respect from us will ALWAYS be met with relentless, merciless attacks.

Your desire to change what happens in the Den will ALWAYS fail because what happens in here isn't up to you.

Your belief that the Den and the Lions should change will ALWAYS get you into trouble, because that belief is just wrong.

 

Your whole understanding of what the Den is and how it works is... W-R-O-N-G...!

 

Please go elsewhere - somewhere you'll get the tolerance and respect you (wrongly) think should be in force here.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

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For the record Roz...yes to two and three as well....this is what I believe it's saying. If it is saying that and reality suggests that, then how is it false?

 

You are claiming that John 17 is true, the entirety of it. 

 

17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.

---You are asserting that your very specific christian god is talking to himself, you are asserting that this is true.

 

I know you cannot see it because you have christian goggles on, but let's try it from a Muslim's perspective.

 

1.  humans need social interaction.

2.  socialization seems to fit with a chapter in my holy book

3.  see, that's one proof that my holy book know what it's talking about

 

You are now screaming bloody havoc at the Muslim's logic and attempts at argument.  Why?  Because the Muslim is now claiming that his holy book (and all the things therein) are true.

 

This is what you've attempted with genetic predispositions and your god's genocides.  "It must be true because genetics plays a role in people's character!"

 

This is why your arguments fail at logic, your god is the one killing it.

 

It's not uncommon for people to take the position that creation is God. If the created is God and the Creator is also God, then this gives rise to discussions like panantheism.

 

It's a discussion of ideas Roz. I would welcome your input.

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To be brutally honest, it's not that End3 can't construct logical arguments.  I submit that he can, and he's demonstrated that on other threads where religion's not concerned.  I actually agreed with him a few times and you know he and I don't get along.

 

It's the christian religion that's illogical to begin with.

 

You know that parable about building a house on sand vs. foundation?  We've proven time and again that christianity's worse than sand, and yet the christians continually use it.  Why?  The alternative is the 'red-pill.'

This illustrates the point I am trying to make very well.

 

Actually... no it doesn't.  Sorry End, but I have to call as it is.  

 

If we can't sacrifice to move off of our personal positions, that is, commune, and know, and have a relationship with the other, then the thread will be locked, figurative "death". 

 

The Den isn't a place where we Lions want to sacrifice anything, where we want to commune with any Christians and where we want to have a relationship with them.  The Den is a place where Christians are toast.  Where they enter at their peril.  Where the Lions prowl round, looking for Christian meat to devour.

 

Going to Africa and asking a (real) lion that's about to attack you to stop and commune with you is a death sentence, End.  

Ditto here. You really, really have to stop thinking that the Den is a safe place for you.  It isn't.  In the Den, we Lions are under no obligation or expectation to treat you kindly, with respect or with tolerance.  We simply won't entertain your appeals to faith or your speculations.  Instead we'll tear apart your faulty arguments, your flawed logic and your mistakes.

 

Yes, this thread will die - but that won't be because we lack a meaningful relationship with you, End.

No. It'll be because you've blithely walked into the Den with the word, "Prey" written on your metaphorical forehead, wrongly expecting us NOT to attack and kill you.   Lions attack and kill.  It's what we do.  There are no exceptions.  You are not exempt - no matter how much you think you should be!

 

If we take the time to HEAR the other through paining ourselves. then we might understand each other more....which is life. No one wants isolation. This site proves it.

 

The Den is not a place where the Lions go to hear or understand Christians.  

It's where they go to kill and eat them.  That's why it's called the Lion's Den.  This isn't our version of the Book of Daniel, where God closes the mouths of the lions and his servant goes unharmed.  Nope!  It's our version of the Roman Coliseum, where Christians are killed and eaten by us.  Stop thinking of this place as somewhere safe, End!  It isn't.  Go elsewhere.   Please.

 

And it's described in John 17 in my opinion. If this thread moves any further, great. If not, it pretty much makes the case in my mind.

 

 

End...

 

I'm pleading with you on this one.  

Can't you see?  Don't you understand?  Don't you get it?  

 

Your calls for tolerance, understanding and better relationships between us will ALWAYS be ignored by us in the Den.

Your expectations of tolerance, understanding and respect from us will ALWAYS be met with relentless, merciless attacks.

Your desire to change what happens in the Den will ALWAYS fail because what happens in here isn't up to you.

Your belief that the Den and the Lions should change will ALWAYS get you into trouble, because that belief is just wrong.

 

Your whole understanding of what the Den is and how it works is... W-R-O-N-G...!

 

Please go elsewhere - somewhere you'll get the tolerance and respect you (wrongly) think should be in force here.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA

 

Have PMed two mods and made it known openly that I would like to get the thread moved. What more do I need to do BAA?

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Another classic bait and switch. The christian takes his over particular christian god and substitutes a very generalized concept of god. Wrong and caught again.

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Topic moved to Colosseum for serious discussion. Play nicely.

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Doesn't seem to understand the abuse that most of us have gone through in Christianity.  It's like a abuser trying to go into an abuse-recovery forum and saying "why can't we communicate?"  Notice I said "like".  To many people here, any Christian, regardless of his/her 'goodness' is going to remind them of the past, and there's nothing the Christian can do about it.  If End chooses to be lion food, that's his business, but personally I wouldn't want to treat myself like that.

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