Guest sweetcakes Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I understand that plenty of you have been hurt in your past during your time of being a Christian . Regardless if it was from a close friend, a family member, boyfriend/girlfriend..etc or just by the religion itself. I understand that, I really do. We were all hurt, but is that really an excuse to have no respect for others and their views? This goes for both sides, this isn't targeted at just Atheist, this also goes towards Christians as well. It's okay to have an opinion on things, it's okay to not agree with things, not everyone needs to agree, if the whole world agreed with everything this world would be such a boring place. However, it's not okay to ridicule someone for their beliefs, now that's not something I support and would never support. Why is it that people end up leaving because they don't feel as if they belong, because someone ridiculed them for their beliefs? There needs to be a line of respect. I understand that a Christian told you things that hurt your feelings, I understand that people didn't accept you when you decided to leave the faith, and they didn't respect your views, I understand that it messed up certain types of relationships with people. What are you now doing though? You're doing that same thing. You're not respecting other people's views. That person on Ex-Christian, isn't the person from your past, you don't even know the person fully, but just because they have this belief on Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, you just ridicule that said person. You don't have to agree with them, you can have an opinion for all I care, but there needs to be respect for other people and their beliefs. Same goes for our fellow believers on here, have respect for the Atheist and their views. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OsborndaleIvanhoe Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I have seen this happen on here as well Sweetcheeks. I fully agree with you that there needs to be respect for ALL variations of beliefs, even if you (the collective you of those on this site) don't agree with said beliefs. If we sit there and persecute others and ridicule them for what they believe than how are we any better or different than the fundamentalist Christians we bitch about persecuting us for our non-belief/Christianity? Well stated sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zanOTK Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I agree with this post. The attitudes found on this site can be, and have been, hurtful. I almost never post on the forums because I know my monotheistic views will be ridiculed. I came here looking for support, someplace I could talk about what had happened to me as a Christian and how I was slowly overcoming it without fear of being attacked by fundamentalists. I didn't find it. Instead, I found fundamentalism of a different sort. Yes, each and every person here has been hurt, has wounds. But that is no excuse for rude and sometimes hateful behavior. Hurting others will not help you heal. It only spreads the pain. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 It is unfortunate that even in the spirituality forum, spirituality cannot be discussed because it will be seen as "trying to convert" people. ExC is ExC, it's not atheist.net 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I understand that plenty of you have been hurt in your past during your time of being a Christian . Regardless if it was from a close friend, a family member, boyfriend/girlfriend..etc or just by the religion itself. I understand that, I really do. We were all hurt, but is that really an excuse to have no respect for others and their views? [/size] This goes for both sides, this isn't targeted at just Atheist, this also goes towards Christians as well. It's okay to have an opinion on things, it's okay to not agree with things, not everyone needs to agree, if the whole world agreed with everything this world would be such a boring place. However, it's not okay to ridicule someone for their beliefs, now that's not something I support and would never support. Why is it that people end up leaving because they don't feel as if they belong, because someone ridiculed them for their beliefs? There needs to be a line of respect. I understand that a Christian told you things that hurt your feelings, I understand that people didn't accept you when you decided to leave the faith, and they didn't respect your views, I understand that it messed up certain types of relationships with people. What are you now doing though? You're doing that same thing. You're not respecting other people's views. That person on Ex-Christian, isn't the person from your past, you don't even know the person fully, but just because they have this belief on Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, you just ridicule that said person. You don't have to agree with them, you can have an opinion for all I care, but there needs to be respect for other people and their beliefs. Same goes for our fellow believers on here, have respect for the Atheist and their views. [/size] Out of the mouths of babes....excellent child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 We should respect people. Ideas deserve no respect except what they earn through their own merit. Sorry but people need to learn to detach their ego from the ideas they hold. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seven77 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 I said that I would reply, so here goes: I understand that a Christian told you things that hurt your feelings, I understand that people didn't accept you when you decided to leave the faith, and they didn't respect your views, I understand that it messed up certain types of relationships with people. What are you now doing though? You're doing that same thing. You're not respecting other people's views. That person on Ex-Christian, isn't the person from your past, you don't even know the person fully, but just because they have this belief on Christianity, or any other religion for that matter, you just ridicule that said person. You don't have to agree with them, you can have an opinion for all I care, but there needs to be respect for other people and their beliefs. Same goes for our fellow believers on here, have respect for the Atheist and their views. [emphasis mine] There have been many times where I have just shut down during discussions. Mostly because a great deal of the discussions turn accusatory or otherwise get ugly very fast. People are often attacked for saying affirmative things about faith and spirituality in general. Those who are critical of science or disagree with certain scientific perspectives or opinions are often attacked as well. Or drawn into pointless semantic battles that are waste of energy and time, imho. Ex-Christian just means that you used to be a Christian or something similar. It doesn't mean that we are all atheists or that we are all science-minded. To me, it is more about respecting people in general than it is about respecting the opinions of others. I agree with this post. The attitudes found on this site can be, and have been, hurtful. I almost never post on the forums because I know my monotheistic views will be ridiculed. I came here looking for support, someplace I could talk about what had happened to me as a Christian and how I was slowly overcoming it without fear of being attacked by fundamentalists. I didn't find it. Instead, I found fundamentalism of a different sort.Yes, each and every person here has been hurt, has wounds. But that is no excuse for rude and sometimes hateful behavior. Hurting others will not help you heal. It only spreads the pain. Ah, atheist fundamentalism. No one can really define that term, but it is oft alluded to in conversation 'round here. Some people are very firm in their mindset that there is no such thing as God/gods, that the Bible is crap, that everything beyond what can be proven is unworthy of discussion. That is rationalism or perhaps materialism, not fundamentalism. And it works as a way of life and thinking for some people. Monotheism is something that quite a few of us have tried and found lacking. A lot of people on here have issues accepting anyone who believes in any sort of higher power. I can't speak for other people, but I tend to give people a chance to say what they have to say on a given topic and take it from there, regardless of what they do or don't believe, think, etc. I know I've snapped at a few people, though. I have seen this happen on here as well Sweetcheeks. I fully agree with you that there needs to be respect for ALL variations of beliefs, even if you (the collective you of those on this site) don't agree with said beliefs. If we sit there and persecute others and ridicule them for what they believe than how are we any better or different than the fundamentalist Christians we bitch about persecuting us for our non-belief/Christianity? Well stated sweet. I'd argue that atheists, agnostics, aspiritualists, Skeletorians, Pastafarians and the rest of the non-believing lot are no better than your garden variety Christ-myth believer. We are different and it isn't a pissing contest to determine who is the best example of humanity. As long as us non-believers aren't slitting goat throats, stoning adulterers and gays, and killing kids, I think we've got the Christians beat in the "Least Likely To Do Some Crazy Shit Because An Old Book Tells Me To" contest. As far as persecution goes, I think that is too strong of a word for what goes down around here. Some people say things that other people don't like and that leads to a shitfest when the other person tries to defend themselves. It sucks, but it happens and I don't know what the solution is. If you limit the freedom of speech for one group or person, that usually leads to a reduction in freedom for the others at some point. ---------- What to do, what to do? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 We should respect people. Ideas deserve no respect except what they earn through their own merit. Sorry but people need to learn to detach their ego from the ideas they hold. However, respect is earned. For me at least it's earned through the coherence of one's ideas and arguments. If anyone postulates any idea and then quickly plays word games for say 20 pages then it's lost. For those who are offended by that, grow a thicker skin and formulate better arguments. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 We should respect people. Ideas deserve no respect except what they earn through their own merit. Sorry but people need to learn to detach their ego from the ideas they hold. However, respect is earned. For me at least it's earned through the coherence of one's ideas and arguments. If anyone postulates any idea and then quickly plays word games for say 20 pages then it's lost. For those who are offended by that, grow a thicker skin and formulate better arguments. I like humanism. For the sake of humanism I will give everybody a level of respect just because they are human. Now they can mess that up if they behave badly. And it is not my highest level of respect so the is more that can be earned. But if somebody comes here and they have nothing to offer me I'm still going to start off giving them the benefit of doubt. I've found most people do have something to offer though. It might be different with every person but it's there if you find it. Now for ideas it's a different story. I start of with very little respect for a new idea. I find skepticism to be very healthy. Ideas should have a long road to go before they earn respect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 There's a difference between someone with nothing to offer and someone offering nonsense, but I get the gist of what you're saying. If anyone wants a total PC environment, don't go to the Den where 'lively' talk is prevalent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 We should respect people. Ideas deserve no respect except what they earn through their own merit. Sorry but people need to learn to detach their ego from the ideas they hold. Yes, I agree. People should be able to say, "This is my opinion. It may or may not be a truth. And it isn't important that you accept what I say." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 We should respect people. Ideas deserve no respect except what they earn through their own merit. Sorry but people need to learn to detach their ego from the ideas they hold. Yes, I agree. People should be able to say, "This is my opinion. It may or may not be a truth. And it isn't important that you accept what I say." If there opinions are worth their time they should be able to handle them being scrutinized in a way that they may not with people face to face. This is the internet for better or worse and it is not always a tame place. Common decency should be displayed but that doesn't always mean the same thing to all people. Cultures change what is considered common and we don't all come from the same culture. I come from one where we where expected to argue our opinions and not in a bad way but in a way that it was normal and everyone did it together and no one got bent over it even when they were on the losing end of debate. We are humans not machines which means emotion is always in play for most of us. People may say it isn't important that they are accepted but I don't really buy it. We don't need to always be accepted but if we are never accepted it gets pretty lonely. We all want to speak and be heard even if not agreed with. I would rather argue someone than have them ignore me. That is just the way I was nurtured. Respect is different in my mind. It is something that is earned through deeds, not words. you cannot get it without action and it takes time to prove you are worthy of it. that is no reason to push someone into the mud but is also no reason to just hand it out without getting a look inside first. Courtesy is not the same and even then has changed someone in the last 100 years. Debates get wild sometimes outside of the academic world it would be damn boring in this world if they didn't. Live and let live. The second you start spouting lies and propaganda about some falsehood that is destroying the world and the people in it expect to get very little respect from those that don't agree with the pain you are causing others... (that statement is not directed at anyone here at all it is just a statement for those that would seek to have power over others by deluded them in their moment of weakness). I might fight people with my opinions sometimes but I try and remember that it isn't just me I am fighting for and in the end I have to accept that those that are to weak to have a voice need a champion to even if he doesn't always say the right thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 The second you start spouting lies and propaganda about some falsehood that is destroying the world and the people in it expect to get very little respect from those that don't agree with the pain you are causing others... (that statement is not directed at anyone here at all it is just a statement for those that would seek to have power over others by deluded them in their moment of weakness). I might fight people with my opinions sometimes but I try and remember that it isn't just me I am fighting for and in the end I have to accept that those that are to weak to have a voice need a champion to even if he doesn't always say the right thing This neatly encapsulates why I am an anti-theist (opposed to theism, not theists, remember). Because religion does real harm to people, and it particularly ensnares those who are vulnerable: children, and adults with emotional needs. "Those that are too weak to have a voice need a champion". Well said, gall. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Yeah, well, we get these posts every now and again around here. I think they result from a misunderstanding of the purpose of this site. First, many who are deconverting find it therapeutic to just open up at the religion that has caused them so much harm. Second, criticizing belief systems isn't a personal attack on the believer. There is a need for a site where people are free to express their true inner thoughts and feelings without restriction. We don't need another "I'm ok, you're ok" site. The internet is bloated with those already. This place is unique in that it lets people say what they really think. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2014 Many people, especially here, have been harmed by religion. If people want to adopt Christianity or any other factually unsupported belief they have that right and should be respected as a person; but any belief should be open to scrutiny and sometimes criticism. People who say they have the Truth and that I should adopt the same opinion they hold, and those who present their guesses as facts need to prove the validity of their assertions or prepare for battle. Facts, logic and the rational approach is the rule with most who have reasoned their way out of an oppressive religion or superstitious mindset. As ex-Christians we have been fooled and made all the stupid apologetic arguments ourselves and we are sometimes angry with ourselves for being so gullible. That anger can spill over to others who represent our dark past. That said, this site exists for those who are finding their way out of religion and the damage it frequently has done. We're not here to make Christians who are still part of the problem to feel good about themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 ^ Well said. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Many people, especially here, have been harmed by religion. If people want to adopt Christianity or any other factually unsupported belief they have that right and should be respected as a person; but any belief should be open to scrutiny and sometimes criticism. People who say they have the Truth and that I should adopt the same opinion they hold, and those who present their guesses as facts need to prove the validity of their assertions or prepare for battle. Facts, logic and the rational approach is the rule with most who have reasoned their way out of an oppressive religion or superstitious mindset. As ex-Christians we have been fooled and made all the stupid apologetic arguments ourselves and we are sometimes angry with ourselves for being so gullible. That anger can spill over to others who represent our dark past. That said, this site exists for those who are finding their way out of religion and the damage it frequently has done. We're not here to make Christians who are still part of the problem to feel good about themselves. I don't know F. You are a very smart man and have gone out of your way on my behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 What Florduh said is true. End3, you are not what I would call the average Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2014 I don't know F. You are a very smart man and have gone out of your way on my behalf. End, you are my Viking soulmate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OsborndaleIvanhoe Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Florduh - I think the general consensus is that it's not Christians who are getting slammed, it's those who aren't atheist. It's people who aren't Christian but who also aren't expecting to convert others to their beliefs. IMO, we should leave people alone and learn about their beliefs and ONLY if they start trying to obviously convert (discussing beliefs alone isn't converting) then challenge them. Not everyone is comfortable with debate, I know I'm not and technically I could probably hold my own if I gave it a shot. I know I didn't come here to be debated, but for people who won't attack me for what I believe. Also, (I know you didn't say this florduh) but where is there a PC place for non-Christians? Because I haven't seen it yet. I don't think it's my place (or anyone elses) to convert anyone to atheism or scientific reverence. JMHO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted October 23, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted October 23, 2014 Florduh - I think the general consensus is that it's not Christians who are getting slammed, it's those who aren't atheist. I think I covered non-Christian believers in my post. The majority of us have found no factual or logical support for Christian beliefs and we apply the same criteria to other unfounded beliefs. I (and many others) can logically defend and factually support what we believe to be true. If critical thinking has been applied to one religion, it should be applied to all. The Spirituality Forum is the place reserved for tossing out speculative religious assertions and we try to prevent critical examination of any belief put forth in that forum. Elsewhere, people will be challenged to back up what they say with facts, logic and reason. Most former Christians go through an experimental phase looking for an alternative spiritual belief, and people need to work out those thoughts, too. The Spirituality Forum is the best we have, but there are other more appropriate sites that cater to spirituality in all its forms. This site has a specific purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Florduh - I think the general consensus is that it's not Christians who are getting slammed, it's those who aren't atheist. I think I covered non-Christian believers in my post. The majority of us have found no factual or logical support for Christian beliefs and we apply the same criteria to other unfounded beliefs. I (and many others) can logically defend and factually support what we believe to be true. If critical thinking has been applied to one religion, it should be applied to all. The Spirituality Forum is the place reserved for tossing out speculative religious assertions and we try to prevent critical examination of any belief put forth in that forum. Elsewhere, people will be challenged to back up what they say with facts, logic and reason. Most former Christians go through an experimental phase looking for an alternative spiritual belief, and people need to work out those thoughts, too. The Spirituality Forum is the best we have, but there are other more appropriate sites that cater to spirituality in all its forms. This site has a specific purpose. +1 Demanding reason and facts to support claims has nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with just trying to get at the truth of the matter. Some people may not be interested in the pursuit of truth/reality/whatever you choose to label it, and/or some people are just more spiritually-wired, for lack of a better phrase, which is why we created a special section of the forum for them. There has to be a balance reached because some of us need, to our bones, to use reason in their approach to life and some people, from my observation, need to their bones something different. The two don't mesh very well, so we have to live with a sort of apartheid where these issues arise. My .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Many people, especially here, have been harmed by religion. If people want to adopt Christianity or any other factually unsupported belief they have that right and should be respected as a person; but any belief should be open to scrutiny and sometimes criticism. People who say they have the Truth and that I should adopt the same opinion they hold, and those who present their guesses as facts need to prove the validity of their assertions or prepare for battle. Facts, logic and the rational approach is the rule with most who have reasoned their way out of an oppressive religion or superstitious mindset. As ex-Christians we have been fooled and made all the stupid apologetic arguments ourselves and we are sometimes angry with ourselves for being so gullible. That anger can spill over to others who represent our dark past. That said, this site exists for those who are finding their way out of religion and the damage it frequently has done. We're not here to make Christians who are still part of the problem to feel good about themselves. The spirituality forum specifically says it is for ExCs who have left Xtianity for another form of theism. This forum seems to have no place in what you are saying, and this forum is the one in question. The message sent seems to be, "talk about spirituality in that forum, but not too much, or the wrong kind". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OsborndaleIvanhoe Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Then, IMHO, the name of this site shouldn't be ex-Christian. The site name should reference atheism or ex-religion. Because when I come here, somewhere I have seen "Ex-Christians Unite!" or something to that effect (don't ask me where because it's too early here for that but I know I didn't pull it out of my ass lol). As a visitor to this site, that is the purpose. If it's to challenge those with unfounded beliefs, then the site should state that upfront (religious challenging and debate). The words "Ex-Christians unite" to me means that anyone who has left Christianity is welcome and we will welcome you. But I have seen people state that they also feel attacked for presenting anything in the Spirituality Forum that doesn't coincide with atheism. I don't frequent the forums enough but I'm sure some that may have felt that way in Spirituality Forum can provide examples I agree that people here are on different paths to their de-conversion. We need to respect where they are at and not attack them. The path can be very emotional and personal, we shouldn't belittle others for where they are on that path. Again, I'm not looking to debate this...just stating observations. I'm the queen of being misunderstood so if you need clarification let me know. Please also direct me to the sites that cater to all forms of spirituality free from being "attacked" (again not the right word but too early for me). I know religioustolerance.org but that's not so much a forum as an informational site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted October 23, 2014 Share Posted October 23, 2014 Dr. James Fowler's book Stages of Faith is but one source that outlines the "stages" that many, if not most, people go through when they are in the process of leaving their faith. That process sometimes takes years to work through. It is quite common for someone who is experiencing this to go through several definable stages. This often includes the desire to de-convert others and anger is almost always part of the process. This experience has often been identified as a journey and I think that's a pretty good description of what is taking place in the mind of the person who is going through this. Militant believers and non-believers are folks I try to ignore and I rarely engage them because it's pointless. I find it is difficult to distinguish the difference between a militant and a born again believer. Both groups tend to be close minded. It's their way or the highway, so I see no point in engaging them. Then there is the militant intellectual non-believers. You can always tell them, but you can't tell them much because they seem convinced they know all there is to know about pretty much everything. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts