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Goodbye Jesus

The Pain You Cause


Guest sweetcakes

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Many people, especially here, have been harmed by religion. If people want to adopt Christianity or any other factually unsupported belief they have that right and should be respected as a person; but any belief should be open to scrutiny and sometimes criticism. People who say they have the Truth and that I should adopt the same opinion they hold, and those who present their guesses as facts need to prove the validity of their assertions or prepare for battle. Facts, logic and the rational approach is the rule with most who have reasoned their way out of an oppressive religion or superstitious mindset. As ex-Christians we have been fooled and made all the stupid apologetic arguments ourselves and we are sometimes angry with ourselves for being so gullible. That anger can spill over to others who represent our dark past. That said, this site exists for those who are finding their way out of religion and the damage it frequently has done. We're not here to make Christians who are still part of the problem to feel good about themselves. 

The spirituality forum specifically says it is for ExCs who have left Xtianity for another form of theism. This forum seems to have no place in what you are saying, and this forum is the one in question. The message sent seems to be, "talk about spirituality in that forum, but not too much, or the wrong kind".

 

 

I'd think that would be something to take up with the moderators of that particular forum. 

 

The reason I say this is the general forum generally has the attitude of free and open speech, within the limits of law and the most basics of human decency.  The spirituality forum, as I understand it, is designed to protect people from demands to justify every thought or opinion they may hold. 

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EDITED: Ok wtf I'm trying to quote Human and it won't let me...

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Posted Today, 12:35 AM

sweetcakes, thanks for caring about other people and for starting this thread.

There is a line between respecting people and still critiquing and debating ideas/beliefs/views. That line sometimes gets crossed or blurred. Maybe people should be able to differentiate their egos from their beliefs. But that is hard for a lot of people to do, especially people who may feel some lingering hurt or bitterness (whether from their Christian experience or since deconverting). Also, this is the internet. All we have is text and emoticons. We don't have the benefit of hearing voice tones, seeing facial gestures, and all the other nuances that accompany in-person interactions.

I empathize with Orbit about feeling unwelcome on the spirituality forum. Early on, I posted on a thread there that I was enthused to find a forum where I felt at home. I expressed my views and my feelings. I wasn't referring to anyone else's comments or views. But I received a blunt rebuttal (from a fellow Ex-Christian). I instantly felt unwelcome. No one, not even a Mod, offered me a "Welcome to the forum" or a "Thanks for sharing your views" on that thread. I quit the thread and became skeptical about the spirituality forum.

I learned some things from that experience. First, the spirituality forum isn't the safe haven it appears to be. Second, I don't need the spirituality forum. Third, just a few extra words can totally change the tone of a post from seeming unwelcoming to welcoming.

Also, I have witnessed a lot of hostility on this site. And I mean between fellow Ex-Christians. There has been a lot of flaming, people spewing vitriol at one another. And it's over various types of issues (religious, social, political, etc.). Sometimes it seems that some individuals are just being jerks who don't care about other people. It's as if they are looking for opportunities to insult or provoke fellow Ex-Christians. This is unfortunate. It could discourage an Ex-Christian who is new to the site. Also, this is a public forum, and the posts can be viewed by non-members. Christians and others can see that some Ex-Christians disrespect and attack one other.

I admit that I made some harsh comments toward a couple of Christians on this site. And I didn't take care to distinguish clearly between the persons and their Christian views. I later apologized to those persons. But I should've done better to begin with. Since I joined this site five months ago, my views have progressed to being more atheistic and even anti-theistic at times. I hope I continue to make it clear that I am criticizing religious (mainly Christian) doctrine, theology, and ideas -- not people.

Thanks again, sweetcakes, for starting this thread.

Peace,

Human

 

 

Ok this quoting issue seems to be Internet Explorer related, sorry folks! 

 

Well said Human!

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Why End3 and other apologists keep getting hammered is all in the Den and now the Colisseum.  They're preachers and their past threads and posts explain themselves. 

 

Some people want a totally PC environment?  Stay out of those places.  Do not come inside if you want to drink tea and eat crumpets. 

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Overall, I love this place and its unique purpose. Certain folks especially seem to have an excellent way to phrase thoughts and are welcoming to newcomers just starting their journey.

 

I've seen attacks on the spirituality forum and have reported them to the mods and seen results. I've also had replies to things I've posted there that I thought were typical "I'm an atheist, so WHAM! THERE! Stupid." I see that kind of response as a thread killer and abandon it at that point. There are lots of other things and people here that are spiffy and that I enjoy. I won't leave the forest just because I stepped in some poop.

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Ex-c is properly named as far as I'm concerned. This site kept me from losing my sanity. I came here for one reason only and that was to find other christians who had doubts like myself. I've seen very few other religions visit this site for deconverting besides sects and denominations within the thousand christian denominations. It's mostly Christians. I was so happy to come across this site. I lived and breathed on Ex-c. I don't like fighting. I don't like prejudice. I hate politics. I detest name calling. I also was a bit saddened to see this on Ex-c but I quickly learned that this place isn't any different than any other place in the world (cyber or real) that doesn't have it's share of the human race with it's thousand opinions. (including mine) I just avoid the topics that I know will bring the worst out in me because I simply don't want to fight and argue.

 

We moderators are trying to read, watch and stop the threads that we feel will bring harm to anyone. None of us like seeing this. I never like to see anyone get hurt. For all those who feel a little hurt today on Ex-c, I give you a big hug but at the same time, advise everyone who can't at least play nice and treat people with respect to move on.... and allow the ones who are open for a logical discussion without screaming and name calling to continue in some sort of peace here on Ex-c.

 

Love and respect to all of you today......

 

Edit: And thank you to everyone who has posted and has helped me in the last four years.

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I'm still not sure if the original post was a call to censorship to free expression or not.  These days with PC being the norm, even the words "that's illogical" or "that's bs" is an attack to the person. 

 

Just pointing out that there's different subforums with clear labels as to their intent.  Don't step in if you can't handle lively discussion.  The peace proponents have the entire range of Ex-C to post in, it's the individual's choice to go and post wherever they want. 

 

PC be damned zDuivel7.gif

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Guest sweetcakes

When a person just post their beliefs on the forums, even though not many may understand, even though to so and so, it may not make sense, still, respect it. If they can respect the fact that you're an Atheist or whatever, you can too. When they are shoving their belief down you, that's a different story, that's when you can defend yourself, however, I'm pretty damn sure you can still show some fucking respect. 

To ridicule someone based off of their beliefs is just wrong. There's not much that needs to be said on why it's wrong. If that person is just posting their beliefs, why the fuck should it get ridiculed? Give me a very good reason. 

Once again, I understand that people have been hurt in their past, who the hell hasn't been hurt? But these people just come on here, posting their beliefs and get bashed? For what reason? Even if you don't believe in that said religion, it doesn't have to be Christianity alone, still respect that person, even if there are things in that religion or whatever that you don't agree with, respect that person. 

People leave this website and say how it's not ex-christian, it's more like an atheist website, and if you're not an atheist, you're not welcomed for when it shouldn't be that way. 

You don't have to agree, you can disagree for all I care, you can debate it for all I care, however, there's always that line that's crossed and people seem to forget about that line. 

If someone says that they believe in a God, and then they start giving me all of these reasons that they believe in God, for sure I'm not going to agree with their reasons because it doesn't make sense me, the whole "He changed my life, I'm here for a reason ( I used to think that )..." You guys get the picture, I'll debate it, but at the same time, I will respect it, it's quite sad when some people on here feel like they can only talk to certain individuals because they know even if that person is an Atheist or whatever, the person is still respectful about his/her belief. 

It's not that hard to understand. 

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ExC is a lifeboat in the stormy sea of Christianity that surrounds so many of us in real life. Many here are atheists, some are agnostic, some spiritually inclined and some just don't know because they are still suffering the trauma that is their recent earth shattering realization that the religion that was their life's focus is all a horrid and cruel lie.

 

When we all consider our personal behavior on ExC, we must each ask ourselves if our behavior may be running someone off who desperately needs this lifeboat. In my personal opinion, discussing the merits or lack of merits of an idea is like reaching out to one in that sea and pulling her/him into the lifeboat. On the other hand, personal attacks against those who express an idea is like prying the hands of those who are in the sea from the lifeboat and rowing away from them.

 

To say, and I have seen variations of this too many times, something like, "That idea is just stupid and you're an idiot" is over the line and, besides what it does to the recipient of such vulgar disparagement, it sends a message to new members that if they say the "wrong" thing, they, too, will be attacked. In other words, these personal attacks act as a deterrent to the true open discussion of ideas.

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The mixed messages in this thread are starting to make me feel a bit dizzy.

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When a person just post their beliefs on the forums, even though not many may understand, even though to so and so, it may not make sense, still, respect it. If they can respect the fact that you're an Atheist or whatever, you can too.

 

Honestly no personal offense here, but you are asking us to censor our real selves.  If we think an idea is bullshit and it can't withstand the scrutiny of questions and reason, then we should be able to say so.  The exception to this is in the spirituality forum. 

 

Beliefs do not deserve respect.  They earn them.  People, I know, take it personally when their beliefs are fileted, but you're asking us to change the premise of our entire site.  We have made accommodations for those that need distance from this, but IMO, that's as far as we should be asked to go. 

 

Perhaps in time you will come to agree with this.  Or not.  In my experience, I've noticed that people tend to go through phases over these issues. 

 

Ps. if this is about FOAK, he brought the ridicule on himself and gave as much or more than he got.  (*me being myself speaking my mind here, not trying to be antagonistic -- I state this as so much tone is lost on forums as opposed to face to face conversation)

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Subforums exist for a reason... and yes the mods do monitor every forum...

 

Hell the off-topic forum was the liveliest at one point.

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Anger is part of the recovery process. If someone doesn't like it, they can always go somewhere else. No one is forcing them to be here.  Maybe those who wine might consider the trauma many ex-Christians have gone through.

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When a person just post their beliefs on the forums, even though not many may understand, even though to so and so, it may not make sense, still, respect it. If they can respect the fact that you're an Atheist or whatever, you can too. When they are shoving their belief down you, that's a different story, that's when you can defend yourself, however, I'm pretty damn sure you can still show some fucking respect. 

 

To ridicule someone based off of their beliefs is just wrong. There's not much that needs to be said on why it's wrong. If that person is just posting their beliefs, why the fuck should it get ridiculed? Give me a very good reason. 

 

Once again, I understand that people have been hurt in their past, who the hell hasn't been hurt? But these people just come on here, posting their beliefs and get bashed? For what reason? Even if you don't believe in that said religion, it doesn't have to be Christianity alone, still respect that person, even if there are things in that religion or whatever that you don't agree with, respect that person. 

 

People leave this website and say how it's not ex-christian, it's more like an atheist website, and if you're not an atheist, you're not welcomed for when it shouldn't be that way. 

 

You don't have to agree, you can disagree for all I care, you can debate it for all I care, however, there's always that line that's crossed and people seem to forget about that line. 

 

If someone says that they believe in a God, and then they start giving me all of these reasons that they believe in God, for sure I'm not going to agree with their reasons because it doesn't make sense me, the whole "He changed my life, I'm here for a reason ( I used to think that )..." You guys get the picture, I'll debate it, but at the same time, I will respect it, it's quite sad when some people on here feel like they can only talk to certain individuals because they know even if that person is an Atheist or whatever, the person is still respectful about his/her belief. 

 

It's not that hard to understand. 

 

 

Generally I ridicule people only after their behavior has gone way beyond normal.  If they start justifying rape or genocide I will take the gloves off.  If they go after individuals or try to reconvert the depressed I usually give them a good fight.  But yes I agree that we shouldn't ridicule people simply for having a religion.

 

However keep in mind that explaining why religion is false isn't ridiculing a person.

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"I understand you've been hurt, but who hasn't been hurt"

 

Something someone would say that doesn't doesn't actually understand. Belittling someone else trauma and abuse. Trying to shut them up, don't express yourself. Heard it all before <yawn>.

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I don't challenge theism because I've been hurt by it.  I get tired of the accusation, frankly.  I challenge theism because it is harmful, especially to those least able to challenge it themselves.

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Guest sweetcakes

"I understand you've been hurt, but who hasn't been hurt"

 

Something someone would say that doesn't doesn't actually understand. Belittling someone else trauma and abuse. Trying to shut them up, don't express yourself. Heard it all before <yawn>.

If you actually had a conversation with me, you wouldn't be saying that. ;) Knew that response was gonna come up. 

 

What I'm trying to say is, should it be an excuse to not respect one's beliefs? 

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"I understand you've been hurt, but who hasn't been hurt"

 

Something someone would say that doesn't doesn't actually understand. Belittling someone else trauma and abuse. Trying to shut them up, don't express yourself. Heard it all before <yawn>.

If you actually had a conversation with me, you wouldn't be saying that. wink.png Knew that response was gonna come up. 

 

What I'm trying to say is, should it be an excuse to not respect one's beliefs? 

 

Who is using it as an excuse to do that?  No one I can see.

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"I understand you've been hurt, but who hasn't been hurt"

 

Something someone would say that doesn't doesn't actually understand. Belittling someone else trauma and abuse. Trying to shut them up, don't express yourself. Heard it all before <yawn>.

If you actually had a conversation with me, you wouldn't be saying that. wink.png Knew that response was gonna come up. 

 

What I'm trying to say is, should it be an excuse to not respect one's beliefs? 

 

 

It's not an excuse, it's a reality. No one is forced to be here.

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Respecting a person's beliefs != respecting the person for being a person. The mods have ample methods of control. If anything I say is out of line within a subforum's rules they have edit and ban powers at their disposal.

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What I'm trying to say is, should it be an excuse to not respect one's beliefs? 

 

 

 

I don't think I owe anybody's belief respect.  I don't care who you are or what you believe.  Your beliefs are not owed respect.  I will respect people because I value respecting people.  Ridiculous beliefs are ridiculous. 

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Those in favor of kid gloves and shut eyes, I ask you this; where do you personally draw the line and would you expect everyone else to adhere to your line? There are thousands of silly beliefs out there, so can you laugh at and mock Scientology? How about Satanism? Voodoo gods? Crystal power? Spirit guides? Leprechauns? Draw your lines. The official line here is a fuzzy line at best. PC is for other websites. This place caters to and supports those abused and damaged by organized superstition, and we will sometimes offend those given to unicorns leaping over rainbows.

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Those in favor of kid gloves and shut eyes, I ask you this; where do you personally draw the line and would you expect everyone else to adhere to your line? There are thousands of silly beliefs out there, so can you laugh at and mock Scientology? How about Satanism? Voodoo gods? Crystal power? Spirit guides? Leprechauns? Draw your lines. The official line here is a fuzzy line at best. PC is for other websites. This place caters to and supports those abused and damaged by organized superstition, and we will sometimes offend those given to unicorns leaping over rainbows.

I like where the fuzzy ex-c line is currently drawn.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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"I understand you've been hurt, but who hasn't been hurt"

 

Something someone would say that doesn't doesn't actually understand. Belittling someone else trauma and abuse. Trying to shut them up, don't express yourself. Heard it all before <yawn>.

If you actually had a conversation with me, you wouldn't be saying that. wink.png Knew that response was gonna come up. 

 

What I'm trying to say is, should it be an excuse to not respect one's beliefs? 

 

 

Why do you think someone's beliefs deserve respect?  What if I believe all Jews should be forced to identify themselves with the Star of David or that black people should be sent back to Africa, would you respect my beliefs? 

 

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<pictures Sagan>: billions and billions of collisions in this dynamic of we call life.

 

Carl, clear your throat buddy, you're driving me crazy. 1000000001.

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