Clues On Early Judaism

[directionless]

The mention of "the sons of God" in another thread reminded me of all the other oddities in the Bible that hint at earlier beliefs and practices.

 

This topic is interesting to me, so I hoped others might contribute some examples, links, whatever.

[Roz]

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/65394-the-only-begotten-bastard/?p=1004182

[directionless]

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/65394-the-only-begotten-bastard/?p=1004182

Thanks, the professors reference to "the sons of God" reminded me of this issue, but I thought it might be useful to start a new thread for people who want to discuss the origins of Judaism? The professor's thread seemed to be going in a different direction?

[Roz]

Wasn't trying to redirect this thread to that other thread, just highlighting RS's post.  She's a historian and I believe so is Blood. 

[directionless]

Wasn't trying to redirect this thread to that other thread, just highlighting RS's post.  She's a historian and I believe so is Blood.

No problem. I hope some of the people in that thread who are interested in discussing the origins of Judaism might come over to this thread. The professor's thread seemed promising until that Christian troll started vandalizing the discussion with incoherent gibberish posts.

[mymistake]

How about Melchizedek?  What is up with that guy?  He is a king of a city, and a high priest and he also gets the tithe of 10%.  He is like the original Mega Church get rich off religion guy.

 

Gen 14

[directionless]

How about Melchizedek?  What is up with that guy?  He is a king of a city, and a high priest and he also gets the tithe of 10%.  He is like the original Mega Church get rich off religion guy.

 

Gen 14

A somewhat similar clue is Balaam. Both these characters suggest that the Israelites and the non-Israelites had a similar religion.

[directionless]

Besides the hinted compatibility between the Israelite religion and the non-Israelite religion, there are also several hints of multiple gods.

- in the Garden of Eden story God seems to be talking to other gods when he says that man cannot be allowed to also eat from the Tree of Life or he will become like us.

- the sons of God mating with human women in the flood story

- in the Sodom story Abraham is visited by several god-like beings

- ... ???

 

Here is the wikipedia on the sons of God:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_God

 

Here is an interesting wikipedia on biblical cosmology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology

[Ravenstar]

First we must figure out who the Israelites are. There are several possibiitlies. That they are nomads from western Egypt… the Habiru,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

 

or the Shamsu of ywh… or that they came with the neolithic/early bronze age influx from Turkey and Syria..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeogenetics_of_the_Near_East

 

the Amorites (along with their Canaanite cousins) and settled in the hills of Canaan.. we have iron age settlements there that are original sites - i.e.: not built on other settlements.

 

http://www.ancient.eu/amorite/

 

That they are originally from western Mesopotamia (Chaldean?)  We know they were of semitic blood and that linguistically they have the same roots as Canaanite and Phoenician.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language

 

The first instance of the word 'israel' referring to a people was the late 13th century BCE the Merneptah stele. The earliest
extant version of the torah we have is from the 3rd century BCE. That's a thousand years of no texts, at all (that have survived?)

 

The Ugarit texts also suggest a deep connection with the Canaanites, at least early on. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugaritic_language

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

 

​I think it's a combination, with some 'Apiru coming out of Egypt after the reign of Akenaten (monotheism) mixing with other nomadic peoples like the amorites and Chaldeans who left Mesopotamia (this covers the Persian and Babylonian roots of stories in the Bible as well… somewhere along the line about the 14th century BCE these peoples became a tribe. We know from the dearth of shepherding imagery in the Bible that these people at the very least began as nomadic herders. (neolithic/bronze age) and only began to settle during the iron age.

 

​The Torah has many clues as to the roots of the Hebrews.. the references to Asherah (God's consort/Goddess) who is El's consort/Ba'als consort in Canaan… the many 'sons of god'… the plural used in reference to god (Elohim - suggesting a pantheistic root) The change in god's name through the early books… from El, El Elyon, El Shaddai..etc.. to Adonai (Lord), Yahweh (YHVH) ..etc… show the evolution of the Hebrew belief system from it's roots.

 

This is a HUGE subject. And then there is this interesting pictograph: (The Kuntillet inscription)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuntillet_Ajrud

 

http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?PubID=BSBA&Volume=20&Issue=3&ArticleID=4

 

 

[directionless]

Thank, RavenStar. I only started looking at those links you provided. The Amorite theory is the one that I've heard, so I'm glad to learn about the other theories.

 

I was browsing amazon for a good book on this topic. Do you have any recommendations?

[Ravenstar]

It's kind of a multi-disciplinary thing. There are books but most of them defend one theory or another. I haven't yet found a synopsis… I just read whatever I can. I try to stick to the archaeological papers the most, or other scientific disciplines. Trying to find out anything about the Hebrews, or anything to do with Judaism or christian history is a minefield… most stuff is written by those with an obvious bias and is no where near objective.

 

If I think of any good ones though I will let you know.  

 

Museums have good info.. check out some of the websites of the better museums.

 

*edited for typo

[Ravenstar]

Oh…. and mythology. Mythology has tons of clues about how people thought… and common themes in their culture/age. Egyptian, Persian, Zoroastrian, Mesopotamian, Canaanite, etc… anything before 800 BCE is good. You will notice, for example that Lions/eagles were very popular motifs.. and then cattle, bulls and calves were the predominant theological symbols up until a certain time… then we were Rams and sheep/lambs… this crosses most cultures in the area… Good historians before the common era are a great source (though you have to kind of understand they weren't quite like historians today) Learning about the various conquests and battles.. who controlled what areas when.. that's important too. Artwork is invaluable, as is architecture and pottery/trade goods.

 

Nothing happens in isolation.. which is why the multi-disciplinary approach is really the only way to understand the past.

[directionless]

Oh…. and mythology. Mythology has tons of clues about how people thought… and common themes in their culture/age. Egyptian, Persian, Zoroastrian, Mesopotamian, Canaanite, etc… anything before 800 BCE is good. You will notice, for example that Lions/eagles were very popular motifs.. and then cattle, bulls and calves were the predominant theological symbols up until a certain time… then we were Rams and sheep/lambs… this crosses most cultures in the area… Good historians before the common era are a great source (though you have to kind of understand they weren't quite like historians today) Learning about the various conquests and battles.. who controlled what areas when.. that's important too. Artwork is invaluable, as is architecture and pottery/trade goods.

 

Nothing happens in isolation.. which is why the multi-disciplinary approach is really the only way to understand the past.

That is an interesting observation about cattle and other theological symbols. Cattle symbols were very important for the Egyptians, Minoans, Canaanite, Hittites, and probably many others. Also there is the astrological age of Taurus from 4000 BC to 1800 BC. Or maybe the climate changed or the genetics of the animals changed so that cattle herding was replaced by sheep and goat herding.

 

When I used to read the bible, I always focused on the semi-historical books, because there were so many verses that seemed to be odd or vestigial.

- Melchizedek

- Baal

- making a snake statue to ward against snakes

- piling up rocks as "witnesses" after crossing the Jordan

- King Og's iron bed (seeming to indicate the value of iron during the bronze age)

- Cain's grain being rejected while Abel's sheep was accepted

 

Another interesting topic is the Hyksos. I know that most historians believe there is nothing to the Exodus, but here we have a group of Canaanites living for centuries in the Nile delta until they are finally removed.

 

What do the cult objects in the temple represent and the various festivals?

 

Learning details of the evolution of Judaism is helpful, because it argues against divine inspiration. Also, I suspect these oddities in the OT are the genuine ancient parts of Judaism.

 

(I know I probably have some of my facts out of context or wrong. I'm just thinking out loud. )

[UnFundEd]

[♦ ficino ♦]

Good video, UnFundEd. I'd like to see more of that series.

 

For those near NYC there's a good exhibit now at the Met, "From Assyria to Iberia," which goes into dissemination of Mesopotamian culture westward. It includes stuff on Israel and Judah and has many exquisite artifacts. A former student of mine is one of the editors of the exhibit catalogue. The materials go into some of the history also in the video, though the exhibit of course isn't focused on the Bible.

 

http://www.metmuseum.org/exhibitions/listings/2014/assyria-to-iberia/blog/posts/welcome

 

I am reminded of the video SteveBennett posted some months ago, which claimed that Judaism is the true religion because only it boasts the appearance of its god to huge numbers of people at once, rather than invention by a single guy (whom that video generally called "Fred"). I was always astounded that the guy on that video couldn't see how obvious it was that the appearance of Yahweh to the whole nation at Mt. Sinai is itself written into the story.

[Ravenstar]

That reminds me of the story of Moses.. when he turned a staff into a snake… echoes of when the Hebrew priests were magicians and shaman.. like those around them. Of course they put a monotheistic slant on it… I'm sure the Egyptian priests claimed it was the work of whatever god they were 'invoking' too - that's a very pagan verse.  

 

Snake worship also goes way back.

 

Ficino.. I like how the claim of Yahweh appearing is as much evidence to them as anything - but many other gods have appeared to many other peoples as well, at least reportedly.  ;p

[♦ ficino ♦]

The guy on the Chabad video linked by SteveBennett claimed that Judaism is unique - and therefore the true religion - for its god's having appeared to a mass group (or to the whole nation, I forget exactly how he phrased it).

 

I was trying to think of other examples but didn't do research. Dionysos appearing to the city of Thebes comes to mind. I think there are stories about Krishna's appearing to groups, though I don't recall how many people. SteveB of course would have referenced Paul's claim that Jesus appeared to more than 500 at one time.

[★ Citsonga ★]

[deleted post due to brain fart: I had commented about the Melchizedek post above, but I was actually thinking of Methuselah]

[★ Citsonga ★]

 

Wasn't trying to redirect this thread to that other thread, just highlighting RS's post.  She's a historian and I believe so is Blood.

No problem. I hope some of the people in that thread who are interested in discussing the origins of Judaism might come over to this thread. The professor's thread seemed promising until that Christian troll started vandalizing the discussion with incoherent gibberish posts.

 

 

I hadn't read any of that thread until seeing it linked here, but wow! That Justus is about the most incoherent person I've ever come across. He certainly does seem to be trolling.

[Ravenstar]

Maybe… idk, I can't make heads or tails from what he posts. BAA is doing much better picking out his points.

 

This is better!  

[directionless]

Here is an article I found this morning about the origins of Yom Kippur. Here are some quotes:

 

The priests of the Jerusalem Temple who inaugurated Yom Kippur seem to have had the 12-day Babylonian festival marking the new year, Akitu, in mind, particularly the fifth day of Akitu, which has some striking similarities to Yom Kippur that are unlikely to be coincidence.

 

That fifth day involved a purification ceremony called kuppuru, which involved dragging a dead ram through the temple, supposedly purifying it of impurities. Kuppuru and its Hebrew cognate kippur meant “to uncover” or specifically in this case “to remove impurity,” which means a better translation of Yom Kippur to English would be "Day of Purification."

...

While in Jewish tradition, Yom Kippur is the only day the high priest enters the Holy of Holies, in the Babylonian tradition, the fifth day of Akitu was the only day the king enters the sanctuary of the god Marduk, accompanied by the high priest. Facing the statue of Marduk, the king would intone: "I have not sinned, O Lord of the universe, and I have not neglected your heavenly might."

Here is something on the scapegoat which seems to come from the ideas that objects can store spiritual things through touch. Christianity has the idea of touching relics of saints too. I suppose this is the origin of sacrificing Jesus for the sins of the world.

The earliest known reference to the practice was found in Ebla (in what is today war-torn Syria), in 1975, at a site archaeologists called "Palace G." Among the texts found there dating from 2,400 to 2,300 BCE were two descriptions of a scapegoat ceremony, which are very similar to those found in the Jewish tradition. One reads: “We purge the mausoleum. Before the entry of Kura and Barama, a goat, a silver bracelet [hanging from the] goat’s neck, towards the steppe of Alini we let her go.”

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/high-holy-days-2014/high-holy-day-news-and-features/.premium-1.618194

[Ravenstar]

Wow.. that's fascinating!  Thanks  

[directionless]

I found this blog yesterday that had some interesting information in an article on the various versions of the documentary hypothesis. I don't know if the information is nonsense or reputable, but I'll quote and give the link. Maybe others will have an opinion.

 

The Kuntillet ‘Ajrud inscriptions refer to El and Yahweh as distinct individuals, Yahweh coming from Teman in the south, and later from Samaria. [4] Deut 32:8–9 presents Yahweh as one of the sons of El/Elyon. Verse 8 originally finished, “according to the number of the sons of El.” [5] The Septuagint and more clearly the Dead Sea Scrolls confirm that reading. The MT changed it to avoid reference to El’s children. Yahweh is given Israel as his inheritance of the nations, which number seventy (see Genesis 10, specifically v. 32, which references Deut 32:8–9). This identifies him as one of the “sons of El,” since they were the ones being given this inheritance. This is a reminiscence of the seventy sons of El from the Ugaritic literature. In Ps 82 those other gods are condemned for their negligence, and Elohim (identified with Yahweh, but still distinct from El/ Elyon [6]) is commanded to take over stewardship of the remaining nations. [7]

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2010/01/jepd-theory-in-nutshell.html

[directionless]

Here is a link to the Kuntillet Ajrud pottery shard from 8th/9th century BCE and a quote.

The inscriptions are mostly in early Hebrew with some in Phoenician script.[4] Many are religious in nature, invoking Yahweh, El and Baal, and two include the phrases "Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah" and "Yahweh of Teman and his Asherah." [5] There is general agreement that Yahweh is being invoked in connection with Samaria (capital of the kingdom of Israel) and Teman (in Edom); this suggests that Yahweh had a temple in Samaria, and raises a question over the relationship between Yahweh and Kaus, the national god of Edom.[6] The "Asherah" is most likely a cultic object, although the relationship of this object (a stylised tree perhaps) to Yahweh and to the goddess Asherah, consort of El, is unclear.[7]

 

An image on the piece of pottery (belonging to a pithos vase) found at Kuntillet Ajrud is adjacent to a Hebrew inscription "Berakhti etkhem l’YHVH Shomron ul’Asherato" ("I have blessed you by Yahweh of Samaria and [his] Asherah"). Scholars disputed about the meaning and the significance of this. The two figures portrayed are generally identifiable as representing the Egyptian god Bes. Also, it is believed that this image was drawn after the inscription was written, so the two may be completely unrelated.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuntillet_Ajrud

[directionless]

Here is an Egyptian artwork describing their view of the universe with the firmament and other forces of nature as deities. I follow it with a nice diagram BAA linked in the professor's thread. Egyptians and Sumerians seems to have shared this cosmology.

 

The air god Shu, assisted by other gods, holds up Nut, the sky, as Geb, the earth, lies beneath.

Sorry I can't get my image link to the Egyptian artwork. The URL is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Geb,_Nut,_Shu.jpg

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_religion