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Goodbye Jesus

What Makes Us Different?


Aiyana

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I really don't know the right sub-forum to post this in, but what is it that makes us different? Why did we end up disbelieving? Not just us (ex-Christians) but also people who have always been doubters. I can't figure out a common thread.

 

It isn't simply intelligence. Many of the devoted Christians I know are highly intelligent people.

It isn't childhood indoctrination. I was not an evangelical Christian until the age of 21.

It isn't wealth, or lack thereof.

It isn't a predisposition to fear. I know anxiety-ridden Christians and brave Christians.

It isn't necessarily higher education.

 

What is it? Anyone ever found the common denominator?

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I don't think there necessarily has to be a common thread. Anyone who reaches the point of honest, critical examination will leave the religion. Many people are comfortable in the delusion and/or are socially/family enmeshed and deliberately avoid using critical thinking when it comes to their religion. Once the religious house of cards falls, going against the tide takes sacrifice and guts. Not everyone is equipped for that.

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I really don't know the right sub-forum to post this in, but what is it that makes us different? Why did we end up disbelieving? Not just us (ex-Christians) but also people who have always been doubters. I can't figure out a common thread.

 

It isn't simply intelligence. Many of the devoted Christians I know are highly intelligent people.

It isn't childhood indoctrination. I was not an evangelical Christian until the age of 21.

It isn't wealth, or lack thereof.

It isn't a predisposition to fear. I know anxiety-ridden Christians and brave Christians.

It isn't necessarily higher education.

 

What is it? Anyone ever found the common denominator?

The personal development, exercise and consistent use of rational thinking is a large factor for many folks.

 

A desire to get away from common tactics used by various religions, such as control, dogma, belittlement, guilt-tripping, etc., is a factor for many.

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Depends alot on the person's experience and level of involvement.   Toxic fundamentalist religion produces a lot of ex-r's.  Milder religion, not so much.  Not everyone has a bad experience.

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I'm not sure, but somehow we saw through it all, where our parents, siblings and entire extended family did not.  Maybe a more inquiring type of mind? Not strictly intelligence per se, but just in that particular area. We wanted to know if what we were told was the truth, when our personal experience of life did not seem to indicate that it was the truth.

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That's a good question. My brother and sister are both Christians, and by any measure they are better than me. I think they have both questioned Christianity only to return later in life.

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That's a good question. My brother and sister are both Christians, and by any measure they are better than me. I think they have both questioned Christianity only to return later in life.

I disagree with "by any measure they are better than me"... don't be so hard on yourself, k?

 

On at least one measure, skepticism, you are way ahead of them.

 

As I do for all our families,  I hope one day they find freedom like we have.

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The only thing close to a common thread I've seen is that when we take personality tests around here, the vast majority end up INTP or INTJ.  Those that end up with more of the feeling personality types seem to have deconverted for slightly different reasons than those who have the logic personality types.  Some have argued that personality typing is pseudo science, but it's interesting how many of us fall into the same category nonetheless. 

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I really don't know the right sub-forum to post this in, but what is it that makes us different? Why did we end up disbelieving? Not just us (ex-Christians) but also people who have always been doubters. I can't figure out a common thread.

 

It isn't simply intelligence. Many of the devoted Christians I know are highly intelligent people.

It isn't childhood indoctrination. I was not an evangelical Christian until the age of 21.

It isn't wealth, or lack thereof.

It isn't a predisposition to fear. I know anxiety-ridden Christians and brave Christians.

It isn't necessarily higher education.

 

What is it? Anyone ever found the common denominator?

 

For someone like me it may be that I was born a natural skeptic. I not even from the farthest back I can remember in my mind took anything anyone said at face value. I would make my parents prove anything they said. When they attempted to "prove" god was real I smiled and realized they had no clue and it was they who were just scared and looking to find some meaning they had not before in life. I have no clue why they believe. It has never helped them ever and cost them a lot of money and time frankly I could have used as a child from them. I don't resent them at all though as this was their choice for their life and I was just born into their lives. At the point I knew what reason was though I reasoned out that they were full of shit and had no real clue what was out there.

 

I question how intelligent someone is that will believe in something they cannot touch taste smell see hear or quantify to anything in science. I know people who know so much about a topic or a skill but they fail so hard when they start dragging god up every 5 minutes. It turns me off and all I start seeing is a braying donkey. I have very little respect for people who blindly believe anything god or otherwise.

 

I can tell you it is surely not wealth. Most of my parents friends in my childhood were far poorer than we were and we didnt really ever have enough. Could have used that extra 10%.

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I don't think that there is a common thread. We are all different, each individual. I'm not a deep thinker like alot of you here, I wish I was but I'm too old for that. However, the one thing, the "tipping point" you might say for me when I finally discovered how wrong and untrue religion is, was the realization that my unbelieving family members, those I love with all my heart, are going to hell because they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior. Well, I didn't want a "heaven" like that. And then I realized, as individuals, we are all unique, no two are alike. How cool is that? We will find our own way, unique and special to each of us.

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I also don't think there's a specific common thread. The closest thing may be that we tend to be more critical thinkers, but even that's not the primary motivator for all of us.

 

For me, I've always simply cared about truth. For many years I thought Christianity was truth, thanks to being thoroughly indoctrinated, but eventually I started seeing serious problems with it. As a lover of truth, I could not dishonestly hold onto something that was turning out to be false. Accepting reality is far more important to me than propping up preconceived ideas, even if those ideas have been held for many years.

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Hey. Woodsy, quit stepping on my toes. Too old for deep thinking? What do you think that makes me? But seriously, I think it's just a natural part of who we are. We probably won't ever know why. Early own we decided the key thing in life is to know the truth, no matter what it is. We don't want to be anybody's fool. My mother told me that at a young age I asked her if there really is a Santa Claus. She said that there is  a spirit of Santa Claus. I said that I don't care about any spirit I want to know if there is a real Santa Claus. I feel the same way about god.   bill

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That's a good question. My brother and sister are both Christians, and by any measure they are better than me. I think they have both questioned Christianity only to return later in life.

I disagree with "by any measure they are better than me"... don't be so hard on yourself, k?

 

On at least one measure, skepticism, you are way ahead of them.

 

As I do for all our families,  I hope one day they find freedom like we have.

 

After thinking some more, I realized my sister and brother are more focused on furthering their careers/goals. They both work very hard and don't spend much time thinking about religion. My sister has a PhD in developmental biology, but she apparently has never been interested in abiogenesis, evolution, etc. Her PhD thesis was about how DNA repairs the damage caused by cosmic rays, so obviously she is better equipped to understand evolution than I am. She believes in intelligent/guided evolution with an old earth. She is apparently comfortable believing in Christianity other than the sexism. She is very smart and successful IMO.

 

It's hard to make generalizations, but maybe people need to be motivated to think hard about Christianity. For example a gay or lesbian would be motivated by Christianity's intolerance. Or a Catholic priest might be motivated by his inability to give convincing answers to the questions of his parishioners. In my case, the hopelessness of depression may have motivated me to question the existence of God. I'm sure there are lots of motivations.

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Maybe a strong desire for honesty or genuineness? I also have a healthy sense of curiosity and enjoy learning and reading. 

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That's a good question. My brother and sister are both Christians, and by any measure they are better than me. I think they have both questioned Christianity only to return later in life.

I disagree with "by any measure they are better than me"... don't be so hard on yourself, k?

 

On at least one measure, skepticism, you are way ahead of them.

 

As I do for all our families,  I hope one day they find freedom like we have.

 

After thinking some more, I realized my sister and brother are more focused on furthering their careers/goals. They both work very hard and don't spend much time thinking about religion. My sister has a PhD in developmental biology, but she apparently has never been interested in abiogenesis, evolution, etc. Her PhD thesis was about how DNA repairs the damage caused by cosmic rays, so obviously she is better equipped to understand evolution than I am. She believes in intelligent/guided evolution with an old earth. She is apparently comfortable believing in Christianity other than the sexism.

 

It's had to make generalizations, but maybe people need to be motivated to think hard about Christianity. For example a gay or lesbian would be motivated by Christianities intolerance. Or a Catholic priest might be motivated by his inability to give honest answers to the questions of his parishioners.

 

Interesting points.  FWIW, when I was a xian I believed in intelligent/guided evolution and an old earth too.  I wasn't motivated to think hard about xianity until the very end, weeks before realising the god I believed in wasn't real.  I cherry-picked away the biblical sexism and didn't see the sexism of xians as any different to the sexism in the wider culture.  And I identified as bisexual... I knew most xians were intolerant but I tolerated that.  I focused on the tiny minority who, like me, were accepting of sexual orientations outside heterosexuality.  By the time I was ready to deconvert I had reduced xianity down to the set of cultural values that fitted me.

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I would go so far as to say a person really interested in furthering their career, would likely remain Christian if they were raised in it and deeply believed in it as a young person.  It is that difficult to extricate from it.

 

As with all things in life, I recognize that exceptions are possible.  If a person has an outgoing, socially mobile, extroverted type personality I think this would be less true.

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Both dominate & submissive personalities are common. Submissives tend to be followers and dominates tend to lead. I assume submissives are more susceptible to accepting religious dogma and traditions being true, whereas, dominates tend to be more skeptical and generally more likely to think critically. Dominates tend to resist allowing others to control them and they also tend to not like rules or much of anything that restricts their freedoms.

 

I think personality traits can play a role when it comes to being susceptible to indoctrination. Obviously other factors must be considered too. It does seem, however, that some people are more susceptible to religious indoctrination than others.

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I don't think there is anything we have in common.  It's just that the Christian trick stops working sometimes.  Christianity has many flaws.  There are many ways it can fail.  It's not about what makes us different that Christians.  It's about Christianity failing and really Christianity could let anybody down.

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I've read some stuff that suggests a proportion of people might be hard-wired for religious experiences. I know in my case that religion never really "took" for want of a better word.

 

Once I got to an age where I could start to reason, to consider what was behind a belief or assertion of truth things like the immaculate conception, the virgin birth and the transubstantiation were clearly not true. Yet others I know believe this stuff with an utter conviction that confounds and, to be honest, unsettles me. How do otherwise intelligent and reasonable people hold to this beliefs given what we now know about the universe?

 

It brings to mind a line by Sam Harris: "Religion allows otherwise sane people to believe in their billions what only a lunatic could believe on his own."

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Hey. Woodsy, quit stepping on my toes. Too old for deep thinking? What do you think that makes me? But seriously, I think it's just a natural part of who we are. We probably won't ever know why. Early own we decided the key thing in life is to know the truth, no matter what it is. We don't want to be anybody's fool. My mother told me that at a young age I asked her if there really is a Santa Claus. She said that there is  a spirit of Santa Claus. I said that I don't care about any spirit I want to know if there is a real Santa Claus. I feel the same way about god.   bill

Hey, Bill....sorry about stepping on your toes. Hope it didn't hurt! Good post!

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There is little that's different at all. Some of you like to be very rude (so are some of us). Some you are full of vitriol (so are some of us). Yes, you might think you're more honest or more skeptical, but the truth is...you don't know what I think deep on the inside. You don't know who I really am as a person. The reality from what I've seen is that there is no real difference between people who are Christians and people who aren't. You can try to draw lines all day but...there are no defining traits or behaviours. I am just as skeptical and as much of a critical thinker as all of you, it's just that I come to different conclusions. I weigh things a little bit differently and I'm a lot more comfortable with uncertainty.

 

If the concept of God was really that extraordinary, there would be fewer people that believe. There's nothing wrong with us, there's nothing wrong with you.

 

Agree or disagree, I'm 100% certain this is the case. We are all normal.

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I am just as skeptical and as much of a critical thinker as all of you

 

What I've seen from you so far has been quite the opposite of skepticism. I can identify with where you're coming from, though. When I was a believer, I also thought I was being logical and rational. However, I was indoctrinated with a lot of preconceptions that for a long time kept me from really being able to apply any real critical thinking to Christianity.

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There is little that's different at all. Some of you like to be very rude (so are some of us). Some you are full of vitriol (so are some of us). Yes, you might think you're more honest or more skeptical, but the truth is...you don't know what I think deep on the inside. You don't know who I really am as a person. The reality from what I've seen is that there is no real difference between people who are Christians and people who aren't. You can try to draw lines all day but...there are no defining traits or behaviours. I am just as skeptical and as much of a critical thinker as all of you, it's just that I come to different conclusions. I weigh things a little bit differently and I'm a lot more comfortable with uncertainty.

 

If the concept of God was really that extraordinary, there would be fewer people that believe. There's nothing wrong with us, there's nothing wrong with you.

 

Agree or disagree, I'm 100% certain this is the case. We are all normal.

I haven't read your past posts, but if you are a normal person I hope you will keep posting. smile.png

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Anyone who reaches the point of honest, critical examination will leave the religion.

 

This sums it up for me - I just finally found the will to face the truth at any cost.  I was 'comfortable' in religion but I valued truth above comfort, and still do.

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There is little that's different at all. Some of you like to be very rude (so are some of us). Some you are full of vitriol (so are some of us). Yes, you might think you're more honest or more skeptical, but the truth is...you don't know what I think deep on the inside. You don't know who I really am as a person. The reality from what I've seen is that there is no real difference between people who are Christians and people who aren't. You can try to draw lines all day but...there are no defining traits or behaviours. I am just as skeptical and as much of a critical thinker as all of you, it's just that I come to different conclusions. I weigh things a little bit differently and I'm a lot more comfortable with uncertainty.

 

If the concept of God was really that extraordinary, there would be fewer people that believe. There's nothing wrong with us, there's nothing wrong with you.

 

Agree or disagree, I'm 100% certain this is the case. We are all normal.

 

no, we are NOT all normal.  Pretty sure I"m not, for one.

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