What's Wrpong With Ego?

[Leo]

This may belong in the Spirituality forum, one which I've enjoyed reading. But although I've requested it using the Contact Form, I have no posting privileges there, so posting it here.

Anyway, Ego. What's wrong with ego? I don't mean egocentric behavior, or being egotistical. But ego? I see a lot of spiritual atheists and others who talk about denying ego. Maybe I'm still too fresh a deconvert, but this looks like Christianity all over again. I will freely admit: I enjoy others' ego, their self-expression, their creativity. I see us as part of nature, not the human virus Greenpeace would have you believe, and not the sinful fallen that the Christians would have you believe.

Also, I understand some people can really quiet their mind, and remain in the present and all of that, I read a good part of The Mindfulness Solution. But I can't help thinking: We're wonderfully evolved to contemplate the future, to contemplate other variants of existence or choices that could have been made. I must be missing something major here, because an awful lot of highly intelligent people are on to this. And I said "spiritual atheist" only because I myself don't subscribe to a deity and tend to have a very materialist world view. But certainly the same applies to theists of any stripes.

Interestingly, though, the pagans I've talked to don't seem to be down on ego, like the eastern religions like Buddhism are. Is this an eastern thing? The asatruars and Wiccans I've met don't seem to be into this "separate from the self" or minimization of ego. In fact, they are rather self-expressive, creative, innovative people, in my opinion.

I just plain don't understand what all the trouble is with ego. I'm a grown man, I certainly understand "get over yourself." But I see my daughter, a developing self, a 20-year-old, bravely contending with some very personal issues in her life. And yes, expressing it all in herself. Her Christian counselor, from what she told me, talks about reduction of ego, sort of like the eastern mystics do I guess. The Wife's another: handily dealing with some very difficult situations at Her work right now. No other person, no other human being, would handle these exactly the same as She has. Isn't that beautiful personality an ego? I can think of many more people, including those I've heard from on this very site, whose egos or personalities, I would hate to see got rid of.

And I don't think that's what these people are talking about. It simply has flown past me like a bird on the wing. So if someone could explain this, that would be fantastic.

I admit fully, as an ex-Christian, as a humanist, and a bit of a rogue mind, I celebrate humans. Individual humans expressing their individuality. I like birds and nature, too, but birds also are individuals. They are not casting away their personalities and individual songs to respond in some kind of unison.

Anyway, this is not meant to be disagreeable, and just because I have an atheistic framework doesn't mean I'm hostile to theists: I'm not. But I officially consider myself completely baffled by this apparent obsession with the suppression of ego. I mean, I understand to a point: I studied in Japan, and in that culture, the individual is not important like we Western types see it. But with that culture you have an entirely different set of factors at play than we do in the West, and I'm just baffled at this constant talk now about suppression of ego.

Anyway, just some random thoughts on this topic, hoping for some responses that will further awaken my understanding of this.

[Vigile]

I see a lot of spiritual atheists and others who talk about denying ego. Maybe I'm still too fresh a deconvert, but this looks like Christianity all over again.

 

Well, I'm glad you didn't get posting privs yet as I stay out of that section and I just wanted to say you're dead on here.  If I have anything that lingers after all these years away from christianity, it's the repulsion I feel toward sanctification-type rituals.  Be yourself.  You don't need to be an asshole, but don't hide who you really are and don't deny yourself things that don't hurt yourself or others.  Christianity destroys ego with all that carry your cross, keep your mind clean bullshit.  Freedom is allowing yourself to be limited only by practicality and human relationships. 

[mikey101]

Ego is to New Age as sin is to Christianity.  It's just another Westeran dualistic concept, often used to avoid responsibility and categorize people who don't believe the same.  "He doesn't agree with our spiritual beliefs, therefore he is stuck in his ego."  

 

Some people suspect that Eckhart Tolle shows signs of mental illness. 

[Leo]

I guess as one who has kept birds, I think of it like this:

We're part of nature. birds as an example are not trying to supercede themselves and stop individually expressing themselves. Not only are physical characteristics different from one another, their voices are. No two canaries sound alike, and that is how I, someone who couldn't see them, knew who was who. All we are is far more evolved and developed creatures, with so much greater emergent properties. Properties which are more beautifully displayed when people don't try to stop being themselves.

I have seen a pet bird cling to life like nobody's business. I've seen a bird with a disability learn how to fly and balance himself. He'd lost a foot. The real struggles that were there, the real challenges he dealt with, were surmounted by a bird version of determination.

And again, I find it interesting that Western Pagan types don't tend to get into this suppression of ego. In fact, they're quite into self-expression, as I have observed.

The only thing I can think of that's unnatural is asceticism.

I tried the nonspiritual meditation, but only was frustrated because my mind would wander, same situation as I might deal with when praying as a Christian.

But listening to the nature sounds from NatureSpace app on my iPhone, or SimplyRain app, or when I go outside, that just seems a lot more natural to me. If we evolved this ability for the mind to wander, and at least in my case, gain clarity by figuring things out while it wanders, why is that wrong? I can't tell you the number of technical problems I have solved with what mystic types call mind chatter.

But again, the few Wiccans and Asatruars I've know, you don't see them upset by this, or talking about suppressing the mind in this way.

Would be nice to have an explanation for this, because otherwise normal peple seem to really get into that stuff. I love the self-expression of other people, often more than my own, to be honest. I would personally hate to see all those individuals swallowed away into a gray oneness where there is nothing but unison.

As I told someone recently, diversity is not gray, or removing all difference. It is a kaleidoscope, multi-colored, multi-tonal, full of vibrance of all stripes. Seems suppression of ego would destroy all that. And I don't see that anywhere in nature at all.

Granted, my experience with nature is absent the visual which most people describe, mainly I rely on sounds. Perhaps why I have gotten so into watching birds.

But it seems that culling out an emergent property of ourselves, self-awareness, individuality, would make us less than the lower life forms who avidly self-express all the time. Did you know no two crows have the same voice? That crows from one part of the country have a completely different dialect from another? Birds living around music sound one way, while birds who live around industry sound another? And for them, that's their presentation. Individual presentation.

Again, anyone who is into that, perhaps I have it all wrong, perhaps you all don't mean the swallowing up and ridding of self and individuality. It would be good to know what is actually meant by this stuff. It puzzles me. In great part why I couldn't get into this mindfulness kick everyone is into now. Remain present always, forfeit that amazing emergent property of us that makes us us, the ability to imagine the future, and to envision the past, and to make connections.

In the Mindfulness Solution, the author talks about a rabbit who feeds in a field, then sees a fox in the distance. The rabbit doesn't know the fox has already fed, and so is scared for a time. But the fox passes by, and pretty soon the rabbit returns to feeding, mindful of its environment, and present in the moment.

But is that really an idyllic state? A human might worry a lot in that situation, yes. But that human, if granted autonomy and not locked into systems as we are now, might wander off and find a more advantageous place to feed or forage. Perhaps the solution is not that we should act like rabbits. That's what the Matrix would have, I think. But that we should act a bit more like many birds who would fly off at danger, and even if danger were gone, would survey, take a map of the surrounding area, and find a place with better advantage.

Why would we want to suppress an ego, and do away with all the beautifully emergent properties that make us us? If you really look at nature, as it is, other creatures are not trying to do that.

[Ellinas]

I tend to agree.  My ego is a part of my psychological make up, makes me what I am and spirituality seems at best bland and at worse pointless without it.

[Fweethawt]

Aside from just quieting the mind during meditation, during certain stages of relaxation, the brain releases certain chemicals -- endorphins, I think -- that create an overall sense of well-being and relaxation that lasts long after meditating. That, I believe, is the main "catch" behind all of that stuff and not so much suppressing the ego.

 

Antlerman could answer your questions more thoroughly.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Ego, as I have heard it described in paganish realms, is used to describe when one starts becoming more narcissistic, or that one has special insights and starts moving towards becoming a guru or cult-leader. The focus has become self-importance rather than connection to nature. It is also used to describe imposing one's own interpretation of stuff as "truth" and not being open to considering other nuances.

 

The same people see each person's unique qualities as important and that setting our own path in life, taking the reins so to speak and living mindfully and purposefully is important to living well and fully.

[Vigile]

Ego, as I have heard it described in paganish realms, is used to describe when one starts becoming more narcissistic, or that one has special insights and starts moving towards becoming a guru or cult-leader. The focus has become self-importance rather than connection to nature. It is also used to describe imposing one's own interpretation of stuff as "truth" and not being open to considering other nuances.

 

The same people see each person's unique qualities as important and that setting our own path in life, taking the reins so to speak and living mindfully and purposefully is important to living well and fully.

 

Like the closet gay man ends up preaching most vociferously against homosexuality, this might be result of those fighting their own demons.  Not everyone that practices new ageish spirituality is like this, but it's certainly been my experience that those who preach it for the most part are. 

[Yrth]

Anyway, Ego. What's wrong with ego? I don't mean egocentric behavior, or being egotistical. But ego? I see a lot of spiritual atheists and others who talk about denying ego. Maybe I'm still too fresh a deconvert, but this looks like Christianity all over again. I will freely admit: I enjoy others' ego, their self-expression, their creativity. I see us as part of nature, not the human virus Greenpeace would have you believe, and not the sinful fallen that the Christians would have you believe.

Can I ask who it is you've seen talking about "denying" or "suppressing" the "ego"?

 

In Sam Harris' book Waking Up, he talks about the neurological support for the Buddhist idea of not-self -- the idea that "the self" is an illusion created by your mind. Is this along the lines of what you're talking about?

[Vigile]

Are Harris' views on morality even published?

[Yrth]

Yes -- The Moral Landscape. Is that relevant?

[Vigile]

By published, I mean academically in a peer reviewed journal.  Books are literally a dime a dozen. 

[Yrth]

I'd guess no, but again is that relevant? Are we talking about ethics?

[Vigile]

Morality, religion, whatever.  If he's trotting out neurological support, I'd hope there's peer review backing it up, otherwise it's just appeal to authority.  I just think Harris gets a free pass on a lot of bullshit because he's the atheist spokesman du jour.  Don't mind me. 

[Yrth]

Oh -- of course. That's what I meant to imply with the word support. I could put down some links later when I'm off of my phone.

 

also I only mentioned Harris because the original poster talked about public spiritual atheists.

[VacuumFlux]

I've had some of the same questions myself, particularly when I read about Buddhist ideas on rebirth, which are different from many Hindu concepts of reincarnation. It was talking about how your personality and other stuff dies with your body but some core bit of you lives on. And my reaction was just "so.... everything ME dies, and whatever's reborn isn't me at all? Then why am I supposed to identify with it, or care about its next life any more than I care about the wellbeing of an object I'm borrowing from a stranger?" Of course, I may have misunderstood, but I just didn't get it.

 

However, I can explain where some of the anti-ego ideas are attractive. Some times I am full of anxiety and paranoia. I can get lost in the irrational thoughts in my own head as they build more and more elaborate scenarios about how the entire world is out to get me. This is very distressing and unproductive. In those situations, letting go and getting out of my head is a great way to break the cycle, to reconnect with reality. In less distressing situations, I still have a tendency to get so lost in thought and planning that I forget to look around me and actually live. If I do that for too long, I get bored and listless and feel lost. And there again, it's important for me to get my thoughts out of my own head and into my physical body and the real world around me.

 

The other area where lessing my ego is appealing to me is in the field of ethics. Now, it's bad to completely loose track of your own needs and wants, but sometimes I get so focused on my own problems that I'm a jerk other people. Afterwards, when I remember that the world doesn't revolve around me, I feel guilty. If I am less absorbed in my own ego it's easier to remember not to take out my problems on others. It also helps me to keep my problems in perspective and be less stressed about them. If I have less of an ego it's easier to put my problems aside temporarily and feel happy for my loved ones' happiness.

 

So I guess I don't think that getting rid of me ego entirely would be a good thing. I did have to spend time after deconverting getting to know myself and learning how to meet my own needs. But sometimes I do go the opposite way and get so lost in my own negativity that I make myself extra miserable, and that's when it's helpfull to push my ego out of the way for a bit.

 

 

I tried the nonspiritual meditation, but only was frustrated because my mind would wander, same situation as I might deal with when praying as a Christian.

But listening to the nature sounds from NatureSpace app on my iPhone, or SimplyRain app, or when I go outside, that just seems a lot more natural to me. If we evolved this ability for the mind to wander, and at least in my case, gain clarity by figuring things out while it wanders, why is that wrong? I can't tell you the number of technical problems I have solved with what mystic types call mind chatter.

Granted, my experience with nature is absent the visual which most people describe, mainly I rely on sounds. Perhaps why I have gotten so into watching birds.

But it seems that culling out an emergent property of ourselves, self-awareness, individuality, would make us less than the lower life forms who avidly self-express all the time. Did you know no two crows have the same voice? That crows from one part of the country have a completely different dialect from another? Birds living around music sound one way, while birds who live around industry sound another? And for them, that's their presentation. Individual presentation.

 

Well... there's mind chatter than then there's mind chatter. Sometimes I sit down to meditate, to clear all of that out.. and discover that I'd been using shallow-level chatter to avoid dealing with something that's really bothering me. If I'm up and walking around and doing stuff, there's a lot of sensory input I can use to maintain that distraction. But when I hold still and close my eyes, if my mind and body start fighting the holding still, that usually means it's important that I get further into myself and find out what's really wrong. Do you notice how often emotions manifest in the body? Meditation helps me quite my thoughs enough to listen to deeper emotions that my body is expressing, and sometimes to even disconnect from my body (kinda like in REM sleep, I think) so that I can process strongly painful emotions without too much physical manifestation of them. When my anxiety's really bad, if I try to deal directly with it in a normal state of mind, I'd start screaming, curl up into a ball, start clawing at myself trying to rip out the source of the pain, or just hyperventillate and have a panic attack. Meditation gets me into a state of mind where I can sneak past all of that and deal with the emotions safely.

 

There's also a type of mindfullness meditation that involves paying attention to your environment, like you do listening to bird sounds. And there's walking meditation. The idea there isn't so much about your ego or lack thereof, but noticing the quieter bits of life that you don't notice if you're too busy thinking about yourself. I guess there, your ego is self-reflective thoughts that distract you from your environment. If I was too busy worrying about the bills and that person who made me mad at work today I wouldn't notice the birds singing enough to hear their different voices. So when you enjoy nature and listen to birds and really hear them as they are, you are doing a form of meditation.

[Deva]

No, VaccumFlux, with Buddhist teachings on reincarnation, it is ME that continues. But this me is always changing, isn't it? What reincarnates is your habits, both good and bad. It is thought that the mind is eternal so it cannot just cease to be, just as its origin cannot be traced.

 

In eastern religions and philosophy, the ego is attachment.  It is an attachment to an idea of yourself, which is an illusion, which in part continues this cycle of birth and death (Samsara).

 

I have somewhat simplified it.  There are many ideas in Buddhism about rebirth/reincarnation. Some have a different take on it, some don't buy reincarnation at all. Yes, believing in rebirth is not a requirement for being Buddhist. But, a lot of it makes no sense in the long run without it, as far as I am concerned.

 

I don't know, did this help?

[VacuumFlux]

No, VaccumFlux, with Buddhist teachings on reincarnation, it is ME that continues. But this me is always changing, isn't it? What reincarnates is your habits, both good and bad. It is thought that the mind is eternal so it cannot just cease to be, just as its origin cannot be traced.

 

In eastern religions and philosophy, the ego is attachment.  It is an attachment to an idea of yourself, which is an illusion, which in part continues this cycle of birth and death (Samsara).

 

I have somewhat simplified it.  There are many ideas in Buddhism about rebirth/reincarnation. Some have a different take on it, some don't buy reincarnation at all. Yes, believing in rebirth is not a requirement for being Buddhist. But, a lot of it makes no sense in the long run without it, as far as I am concerned.

 

I don't know, did this help?

 

Ah, explaining it as "habits" makes more sense. I probably did misunderstand what I read before. I was also bothered by it being a guided meditation that said something like "when you examine your experiences, it it obvious that..." about things that did not seem at all obvious to me and did not match my experiences. So I figured it was either something that I would always disgree with, or something I didn't have a set of experience from which to make sense of, and either way that was not going to be useful to me at the time. I pulled the book out tonight, and since I'm not finding anything that bothers me to that degree while skimming it just now, it's probably worth going back and re-reading that section more carefully to see if I can get more out of it this time through. I did quite like most of the rest of the book.

 

The book I was reading is "How to Meditate" by Kathleen McDonald. Here's an Amazon link to the book.

 

Though I couldn't find the specific bit about rebirth that I was looking for, I did find some other bits relevant to the current discussion. I guess "emptiness" here would be similar to the idea of getting rid of ego. This is a much more empowering version of ego-less-ness than the christian concept of "denying yourself".

 

 

 

Emptiness sounds pretty abstract but in fact is very practical and relevant to our lives. The first step towards understanding is to try and get an idea of what it is we think exists; to locate, for example, the I that we believe in so strongly and then, by using clear reasoning in analytical meditation, to see that it is a mere fabrication, something that has never existed and could never exist in the first place.

 

But don't throw out too much! You definitely exist! There is a conventional, interdependent self that experiences happiness and suffering, that works, studies, eats, sleeps, meditates, and becomes enlightened. The first, most difficult task is to distinguish between this valid I and the fabricated one; usually we cannot tell them apart.

 

 

 

Our conscious world is also changing constantly. Sometimes we are happy, sometimes depressed; something we feel full of love, other times full of anger..Streams of thoughts, feelings, and perceptions flash by, in every direction, without ceasing.

 

This constant change is the reality of things, but we find it very difficult to accept.... we cling to people and things as if they were permanent and unchanging. We don't want the nice person or the beautiful object to change, and firmly believe that the irritating person will never be different. And when we are depressed or dissatisfied, we think we will be that way forever.

 

...Gradually we will learn to expect, and accept, change as the nature of life.

 

We will understand not only that change simply happens but also that we can bring about change. We have the power to change what we are, to develop and transform our minds and lives.

[Deva]

The word "emptiness". That is known as the actual state of reality. The way I have come to understand it is that emptiness is not empty.  I am sure you have heard "Form is emptiness, emptiness is form."

 

The moment something comes into existence (form) it is emptiness.  It is empty of any lasting permanence.  There is nothing lasting, solid or permanent, but it still has form.  I think of emptiness as a potential. That might not be strictly or entirely correct, but that is how I have come to understand it.

 

I have not read that book by McDonald but I have listened to some videos by Robina Courtin, the editor. She is a Buddhist nun and has some videos on You Tube. Possibly she is a bit abrasive for some, but that is her personality. I think she is a good teacher. This particular video is about Buddhist psychology.

 

[traveller2]

For me i steer clear of anything about impinging the ego tho i do encounter it from time to time in you-tube stuff i listen to.My reason is the Christianity did that way too much and part of my recovery has to be about thinking of me and doing what i want to do,the things that make me happy and that i truly want to do.i have to be me.Christianity damaged my life too much by denying these things in favor of vague impressions I got in prayer or feelings about what god wanted or what other folk and church culture dictated.

In my personal history i had a psychopathic father and a very controlling mother both of whom were non christian.

Since leaving Christianity my life has really taken off and i am living truly for the first time without the mental baggage of these two areas.i have got alot of satisfaction and personal freedom form all this and shy away from any such strictures over myself.

[midniterider]

This may belong in the Spirituality forum, one which I've enjoyed reading. But although I've requested it using the Contact Form, I have no posting privileges there, so posting it here.

Anyway, Ego. What's wrong with ego? I don't mean egocentric behavior, or being egotistical. But ego? I see a lot of spiritual atheists and others who talk about denying ego. Maybe I'm still too fresh a deconvert, but this looks like Christianity all over again. I will freely admit: I enjoy others' ego, their self-expression, their creativity. I see us as part of nature, not the human virus Greenpeace would have you believe, and not the sinful fallen that the Christians would have you believe.

Also, I understand some people can really quiet their mind, and remain in the present and all of that, I read a good part of The Mindfulness Solution. But I can't help thinking: We're wonderfully evolved to contemplate the future, to contemplate other variants of existence or choices that could have been made. I must be missing something major here, because an awful lot of highly intelligent people are on to this. And I said "spiritual atheist" only because I myself don't subscribe to a deity and tend to have a very materialist world view. But certainly the same applies to theists of any stripes.

Interestingly, though, the pagans I've talked to don't seem to be down on ego, like the eastern religions like Buddhism are. Is this an eastern thing? The asatruars and Wiccans I've met don't seem to be into this "separate from the self" or minimization of ego. In fact, they are rather self-expressive, creative, innovative people, in my opinion.

I just plain don't understand what all the trouble is with ego. I'm a grown man, I certainly understand "get over yourself." But I see my daughter, a developing self, a 20-year-old, bravely contending with some very personal issues in her life. And yes, expressing it all in herself. Her Christian counselor, from what she told me, talks about reduction of ego, sort of like the eastern mystics do I guess. The Wife's another: handily dealing with some very difficult situations at Her work right now. No other person, no other human being, would handle these exactly the same as She has. Isn't that beautiful personality an ego? I can think of many more people, including those I've heard from on this very site, whose egos or personalities, I would hate to see got rid of.

And I don't think that's what these people are talking about. It simply has flown past me like a bird on the wing. So if someone could explain this, that would be fantastic.

I admit fully, as an ex-Christian, as a humanist, and a bit of a rogue mind, I celebrate humans. Individual humans expressing their individuality. I like birds and nature, too, but birds also are individuals. They are not casting away their personalities and individual songs to respond in some kind of unison.

Anyway, this is not meant to be disagreeable, and just because I have an atheistic framework doesn't mean I'm hostile to theists: I'm not. But I officially consider myself completely baffled by this apparent obsession with the suppression of ego. I mean, I understand to a point: I studied in Japan, and in that culture, the individual is not important like we Western types see it. But with that culture you have an entirely different set of factors at play than we do in the West, and I'm just baffled at this constant talk now about suppression of ego.

Anyway, just some random thoughts on this topic, hoping for some responses that will further awaken my understanding of this.

 

For Christianity, you are supposed to suppress your ego because the holy trinity doesn't like competition. You're supposed to be a big nothing before Jesus.

In Eastern mysticism ego is an illusion and the 'real' you is the sum total of all...sorta.

In Paganism you roll your own belief system so you aren't constrained by some tyrannical leader or system of control. So you're allowed to have an ego. :-)

 

My understanding of it, anyway. The downside to Christianity then is denying yourself in favor of your imaginary friend who really is yourself, anyway. The downside of Eastern mysticism is denying yourself for some practice that is supposed to rid you of the illusion of separateness or separate small ego contained in a bag of skin. Bodhidarma supposedly stared at a wall for 9 years to attain enlightenment. I'll pass on that. Supposedly we are all 'enlightenment itself' but 'just don't have that conviction of being.' But if you consider the logic of that, why bother with a practice at all? Seems like chasing a feel-good thing.... and prior to 'enlightenment' there is doctrine and practice to follow.

 

Think I'll just enjoy a bit of ego with some  pantheism on the side. Makes life easier. :-)

[midniterider]

I tried the nonspiritual meditation, but only was frustrated because my mind would wander, same situation as I might deal with when praying as a Christian.

But listening to the nature sounds from NatureSpace app on my iPhone, or SimplyRain app, or when I go outside, that just seems a lot more natural to me. If we evolved this ability for the mind to wander, and at least in my case, gain clarity by figuring things out while it wanders, why is that wrong? I can't tell you the number of technical problems I have solved with what mystic types call mind chatter.

 

 

'What's wrong with Right NOW! (unless you think about it!)', asks the advaita sage Bob Adamson (and probably Hamlet). So I apply my own logic to this and assert 'If there's nothing wrong with right now unless we think about it, then a wandering mind is as wonderful as a meditative mind and not attaining enlightenment is just as great as attaining enlightenment.'

[midniterider]

Ego is to New Age as sin is to Christianity.  It's just another Westeran dualistic concept, often used to avoid responsibility and categorize people who don't believe the same.  "He doesn't agree with our spiritual beliefs, therefore he is stuck in his ego."  

 

Some people suspect that Eckhart Tolle shows signs of mental illness. 

 

http://www.gurusfeet.com/forum/schizophrenia-or-advanced-spiritual-state

 

I believe Tolle expresses his 'enlightenment' occurred during a particularly dark period in his life. I've also read other sages claim they got real lazy after they attained non-dual awareness.

[Sparky]

Its funny because ego is actually one of the biggest problems I've had to get rid off since leaving Christianity. Believing I am a child of god destined to fight for the truth, with the power to heal the sick, etc, definitely gave, at least in my case, strong delusions of grandeur. And to think I used to call atheism arrogant