Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Arguments Against Bible-Inspired Homophobia


FreeThinkerNZ

Recommended Posts

Even when I was a xian I didn't consider homosexuality a sin, and I accepted people regardless of sexual orientation.  It was a complete non-issue for me.  I'm bisexual myself and now that I'm an ex-c I am increasingly dismayed by bible-inspired homophobia.

 

I want to be able to argue against it if I ever have the opportunity to discuss it with a xian.

 

First off I can say that (the fictional character) Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.  If that doesn't work, I can say the OT also said it is a sin to eat shellfish or wear mixed fabrics.  If they then say  Paul was against it, what do I say then?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paul also gave a tacit endorsement for slavery.

Paul said women can't be leaders in the church, as well as many other sexist passages.

 

There is plenty in the great christian book of multiple choice, and that is why christians have such a hard time agreeing with each other.  You want to hate the gays but you're also a woman that wants to be a minister?  There's a church for that.  You're ok with gay people, but want to promote ignorance and scientific illiteracy?  There's a church for that too.  You want to own slaves?  There's a church...ok, that church might not actually be around right now.

 

There isn't a single christian out there that makes even the weakest attempt to follow all the rules laid out in the bible (or even just the ones in the new testament).  When was the last time you spoke to a christian that gave away everything they owned to the poor (Matt 19:16-24)? 

 

This brings us to Jesus' explicit prohibition on judging others (Matt 7:1-2, Luke 6:41).  You're not going to change any minds, at least not quickly, but a lot of people are uncomfortable when someone else calmly and politely exposes them to their hypocrisy. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks WP, using those verses sounds like a good plan.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well worth the time to watch:

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do think that it's great that christians are increasingly changing their interpretation of the bible concerning homosexuality.

 

But I also see that there are bible verses that argue against homosexuality. I think christians ignoring these bible verses are, on one hand fooling themselves about what their religion is saying, but on the other hand to me it proves that they are decent, loving people who value compassion and tolerance more than their religion. Or, if they are gay themselves, value their romantic and sexual expression more than a orthodox interpretation. And that's a great thing.

 

I wish people could leave their religion altogether, but that's not possible for most people, so religion itself changing from within is the best thing I can hope for at the moment.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe it would help to ask each Christian to explain God's reasons for prohibiting homosexuality. Christians can explain why God prohibits murder, so they should be able to explain why God prohibits homosexuality. If they can't explain then that might get them thinking?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe it would help to ask each Christian to explain God's reasons for prohibiting homosexuality. Christians can explain why God prohibits murder, so they should be able to explain why God prohibits homosexuality. If they can't explain then that might get them thinking?

 

The reason that I've heard is that "God" planned on procreation happening between man and woman, so because homosexuality doesn't fit with his plan, it's a sin.

 

If you ever do encounter a fundy who isn't able to explain, I highly doubt it might cause them to think about it. It seems more likely that they'd just run to the nearest apologetics source for a response they can use.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Our church taught that homosexuality was the greatest of sins and a guarantee of hellfire.  We were not supposed to interact with gays and lesbians.  We were supposed to "love" them though, somehow, we're supposed to hate them and love them and stay far away from them.  I took it very seriously when I was a Christian.  Even though I had no personal feelings that homosexuality was wrong, I had to adopt a hatred of homosexuality to be approved by my god.  Later on after leaving the religion I realized how stupid and senseless it was, that I never even knew why homosexuality was "evil", that I was basing my morality on a book that excuses torture, rape and slavery.  I've met many wonderful glbt people since then.  "God's book" does plainly condemn homosexuality.  It says in the OT that gay people have to be stoned to death for being "abominable" and in the NT gays and 'male prostitutes' are listed as those that will be sent to hell.  There can be no question after reading the bible that 'god' hates gays.  And if god hates something, so does Jesus. 

Which is why I have been amazed, when working in lesbian families' homes, I often find bibles and books such as "Jesus calling" present in the home.  I wonder if they just don't realize what the bible really had to say about gays, or if they just ignore it. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

An argument against Bible-Inspired Homophobia (living in the USA):

 

The Constitution of the United States trumps religious dogma.  Equal protection means what it says.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are no arguments against Bible inspired homophobia.

 

The Bible is quite clear that we are commanded to violently murder gay people wherever we find them (Lev 20:13). Also the god in the Bible clearly states that he finds homosexuality (and therefore gays) an abomination (Lev 18:22).

 

The reality is that the god of the bible is a loving, forgiving, psychotic, merciful, schizophrenic, caring, bloodthirsty, jealous, compassionate, bi-polar vengeful God, who wants us to be with us to be with him in heaven or brutally torture us beyond all comprehension in hell. The choice is yours. Or his. Or yours.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a humorous approach:

 

Leviticus Tattoo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off I can say that (the fictional character) Jesus never said anything about homosexuality.  If that doesn't work, I can say the OT also said it is a sin to eat shellfish or wear mixed fabrics.  If they then say  Paul was against it, what do I say then?

 

Paul also didn't see anything wrong with slavery.  Should we see slavery as normal because Paul did?  People basically just use the bible to justify their own prejudices, but if it's something they don't agree with (like slavery) they'll ignore it.  Fuck the bible, who cares what it says about homosexuality.  Fuck intolerant ignorant assholes using it to justify their own shittyness.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally agree, fuck the bible and all that, but the thing that made me think of this was hearing someone judge a specific person for being gay, in a situation that disadvantaged the gay person.  It was discrimination, pure and simple.  It made me angry, so I wanted to channel the anger into something constructive.  

 

I guess the only way to successfully argue that bible-inspired homophobia is wrong is to argue that the bible is wrong.  Which it most certainly is. Fucking book.  Fuck it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally agree, fuck the bible and all that, but the thing that made me think of this was hearing someone judge a specific person for being gay, in a situation that disadvantaged the gay person.  It was discrimination, pure and simple.  It made me angry, so I wanted to channel the anger into something constructive.  

 

I guess the only way to successfully argue that bible-inspired homophobia is wrong is to argue that the bible is wrong.  Which it most certainly is. Fucking book.  Fuck it.

 

I heard some compelling arguments from gay Christian clergy a long time ago, and I don't remember it unfortunately. It was good though.  I don't know if it would convince a mind slave but the gay person might enjoy hearing about a different perspective.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The sad things about Christians and their use of the bible to bash homosexuals is that they certainly haven't actually studied anything in depth that would show how what the new testament says about homosexuality is nonsense.

Point 1:

"Paul", when describing homosexual acts and behaviors in his books, uses the word arsenokoites to describe homosexuality. The word is literally made up and is very likely a Septuagint used transliteration from the book of Leviticus. Most reputable scholars would likely admit that the exact definition of the word is unknown. It could mean several things. But the funny thing is, if "Paul" wanted to use the word for homosexual, there already existed words for that specific use. So why create a whole new word? Arsenokoites literally means "Male Bed Lier" as in a male laying down in a bed. It has a variety of possible meanings. Anything from a man masturbating in in a bed by himself (arseno is a singular form of the word, indicating that it possibly was referring to a single man) to the widely known male temple prostitutes that were common in the old testament times. It could also possibly mean "couch potato". No one knows for sure. So how can a whole doctrine be made up based on a made up word?

 

Point 2:

A favorite passage of scripture that Christians like to use to refute homosexuality is Romans 1:18-32. But most Christians don't actually read what it says, but they just take the part out that fits their need to bash homosexuality. If you actually read it and pay attention you will notice a few things:

God’s Wrath Against Sinful Humanity

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

 

First off, you will notice that the title to the section is called "God's Wrath Against Sinful Humanity." This is important to note because the title tells you that you are about the see what god is going to do to sinful humans.

 

Then we read that "21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles."

 

So we see that man is screwing up what he should be doing in his relationship with god. So...here it comes.... god is pissed and then he does this: "24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. "

 

Then the author writes that man screws up more:

"25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."

 

They became Idolatrous. This pissed off god too... so then he decides to pour out the wrath and he does this:

 

"26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

I highlighted the "because of this" because it is important. According to Romans, Homosexuality is given as a punishment for idolatry. According to Romans, God made them homosexual as a punishment.

 

So god did this. So why wouldn't Christians love them. they try to make it go away even though god made them that way. They pray for god to remove the gay, but they don't pray for god to reveal their idolatry to them so they can repent. Christians are clueless about what their own bible even says. Its crazy.

 

There is really only one thing that Christians can use against homosexuality. And that is that homosexuality is sexual relations outside the confines of a biblical definition of marriage. Its essentially the same as a boyfriend and girlfriend doing the dirty deed outside of marriage. That is frowned upon.

 

That's it. That is all they have.

 

And now that the law allows gays to get married in many states, that is even subject to new discussions due to the fact that the bible states in Romans 13:1-2 that "...everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

 

So if I am reading this correctly, God placed those in authority who make our laws. So, in essence, they are making god's laws. In that case, married homosexual sex is ok. But no Christian would likely see it this way.

 

It just gets crazy the more you look at it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 If they then say  Paul was against it, what do I say then?

 

I have heard two counter arguments.

 

Storm touched on the first one.  I have heard it said that the homosexuality of the new testament period is not the same as homosexuality today.  In that time, it was an older man with a young boy and the young boy might even be in a position of being the older man's sex slave.  So, the condemnation of homosexuality is against that type of behavior and not the consensual adult relationships of contemporary times.

 

The second argument goes along the lines of those who condemn something the loudest are the ones that personally have a problem with it.  Some people contend that Paul was gay and just like some current religious leaders (i.e. Ted Haggard) that loudly preach against homosexuality, he was himself gay.  They point to three things to support this position, Paul talks about some unknown affliction and asks god to take it away but he never does (even then, pray-away-the-gay didn't work), Paul states that he is unmarried and wishes every man could be as he is (1 Corinthians 7:7), and they point to Paul's relationships with his helpers (i.e. Timothy).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FTNZ,

 

So there's this site called: GayChristian101.com

These people are conservative evangelical anti-Evolution Christians who are also homosexuals. Don't believe me, go look. Better yet, go look at their apologetic. But here is the summary from what I gathered:

The homosexuality talked about in the Bible is specifically occultic homosexual practices.

There is no discussion about loving gay relationships in the Bible.

People did not consider something called sexual orientation back then, people just did homosexual acts sometimes, and often during occultic practices for the heathen gods.

 

This is their argument, may be well worth a look. They even have a section for gay teens on how to come out to their Christian parents.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.