R. S. Martin Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 I don't know if he'll come here but I told him to take the conversation off Facebook and suggested this place. Here are my posts that he is picking apart: My Post 1: If there's just the two of you and both of you like to say it, you can say and sing Merry Christmas all you want. It's just not polite to say it to strangers who might not share your beliefs. Fair enough? My Post 2: By the way, I'm one of those atheists who thinks "Merry Christmas" is just another way of saying "Have a good day." But I realize a lot of people, such as Jews and Muslims and Native American religions, do NOT worship Jesus as the most high son of God. For some of these people, Jesus is the enemy's god and wishing Merry Christmas could be akin to wishing evil. Frankly, I don't know how they feel but I imagine they could feel this way. Those people also pay their taxes and put their lives on the line to defend their country. For this reason, I'm not sure why one group of citizens, such as Christians, thinks the public should operate by their book. Are they trying to lord it over minority groups? That seems almost like Islamist State ideas. When speaking in public why not go for something neutral like Happy Holidays? In your own home and church with your own friends and family who believe like you do, no one cares how long and loud you pray and say Merry Christmas. All of us do our own thing in our own homes with like-minded friends and family. We expect Christians to do likewise. I'll skip to the rest, and post a single question in his last post and my answer. His Question: So I ask you this, once again, how does something you don't believe exists offend you and why. My Answer: I don't know where this question comes from. God does not offend me. Saying Merry Christmas does not offend me. I think I am clear about this in my posts. I suggest that some people such as Jews, Muslims, and especially Native Americans might be deeply offended. I say the reason for this is that Jesus is the enemy's god. He does not address this in any of his posts. I doubt the guy will show up but anyone feel free to join the debate. If Christians resort to personal attacks and/or empty cliches that I've been through countless times over the years I might bow out and let hungrier lions and lionesses to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 I don't know if he'll come here but I told him to take the conversation off Facebook and suggested this place. Here are my posts that he is picking apart: My Post 1: If there's just the two of you and both of you like to say it, you can say and sing Merry Christmas all you want. It's just not polite to say it to strangers who might not share your beliefs. Fair enough? My Post 2: By the way, I'm one of those atheists who thinks "Merry Christmas" is just another way of saying "Have a good day." But I realize a lot of people, such as Jews and Muslims and Native American religions, do NOT worship Jesus as the most high son of God. For some of these people, Jesus is the enemy's god and wishing Merry Christmas could be akin to wishing evil. Frankly, I don't know how they feel but I imagine they could feel this way. Those people also pay their taxes and put their lives on the line to defend their country. For this reason, I'm not sure why one group of citizens, such as Christians, thinks the public should operate by their book. Are they trying to lord it over minority groups? That seems almost like Islamist State ideas. When speaking in public why not go for something neutral like Happy Holidays? In your own home and church with your own friends and family who believe like you do, no one cares how long and loud you pray and say Merry Christmas. All of us do our own thing in our own homes with like-minded friends and family. We expect Christians to do likewise. I'll skip to the rest, and post a single question in his last post and my answer. His Question: So I ask you this, once again, how does something you don't believe exists offend you and why. My Answer: I don't know where this question comes from. God does not offend me. Saying Merry Christmas does not offend me. I think I am clear about this in my posts. I suggest that some people such as Jews, Muslims, and especially Native Americans might be deeply offended. I say the reason for this is that Jesus is the enemy's god. He does not address this in any of his posts. I doubt the guy will show up but anyone feel free to join the debate. If Christians resort to personal attacks and/or empty cliches that I've been through countless times over the years I might bow out and let hungrier lions and lionesses to it. If the clerk at the grocery store said Merry Christmas as I walked out then it's about as offensive as "Have a nice day." If someone sends me 10 emails a day saying "Merry Christmas", knowing that I'm a devout Muslim then it could be offensive. If someone paints Merry Christmas on the side of a Jewish synagogue that's offensive. I was married to a Colombus Day hating Native American who loved Jesus so trying to pin down who's going to be offended by what can be confusing. :-) She never seemed to be offended by pictures of the white, Euro version of Jesus. Often I ignore idle chit chat of strangers but if I'm feeling frisky I might reply to Merry Christmas with a really loud, theatrical and embarrassing "Praise Jesus!" or a "Osiris bless you" or "May the holy semi-colons of C++ compile your happiness!!!!" just to have some fun. Most of the time though I forget what someone says 5 seconds after they say it. haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted November 1, 2014 Author Share Posted November 1, 2014 Good answer, midniterider. I know some Native Americans are Jesus-loving people but I also know others adhere to traditional religion. Maybe I should have said Native North Americans because the only ones I have talked to personally were in Canada. I'm not sure if they acknowledge our international border. Probably most of them but there's radicals in all groups. However, this thread is not about the original inhabitants of North America but about this Christian guy from Facebook who imagines I'm saying things I never said. I find that funny, really. It's like he thinks he has to prove that I am offended by his god and godly greetings so he can attack me and claim persecution or something. But if I'm not offended I've stolen the thunder right out of his mouth. And he can't figure out how to live with that....I dunno. That's just what it seems like and it's just plain crazy. My biggest barrier to becoming atheist was the belief that atheism=immorality. When I discovered that I can keep my values and continue my life as before, it was such a relief. No dress code, no faith statement, no morality measure--just be me. Since treating others like I want to be treated and honesty come naturally to me, it's really wonderful. Oh but...no true believer can admit that these things do come naturally to any human being. Maybe that's why they are obliged to twist everything we say to mean things we never said. It's crazy-making and I don't mean to live in that world anymore. That's one reason I moved this to the Lion's Den. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted November 1, 2014 Share Posted November 1, 2014 It will be interesting if he appears. In the meantime, I am glad to see you back here on Ex-C, R.S. Martin, it has been a long time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted November 1, 2014 Author Share Posted November 1, 2014 Thanks, Deva. It's not as though I forgot my family here on exC. I just got busy doing other things. I found a few cousins--I've always known they existed but never had anything to do with them. Now I'm getting to know them on Facebook. Mostly we photograph and post nature scenes (flowers, trees, snow now that winter comes knocking) and discuss the photos. My cousins are Christians but happen to be the kind of Christian who believe in being nice to everyone. They even tolerate me posting those things on their walls in response to their right-wing Christian banners. It was on my cousin's Facebook page where this guy took me on. My cousin is dealing with a sister who just came out of the hospital and I felt it was inappropriate to bicker endlessly on her page when she's always nice to me. She was not participating. It didn't help that another of her friends "liked" this guy's personal attacks on me--probably the "friend" (a woman who loves to speak about her faith) saw it as a profession of faith. The original banner that my cousin posted came across to me as comical, half-serious. There are these two cutsie guys in the forest. One says to the other, "It's really strange. America is the largest Christian nation in the world, and we can't say 'Merry Christmas'!!" Since the tone seems only half-serious I tried to keep my part of the convo on that level and did not respond to some of this guy's personal attacks. Now he accuses me of hiding behind a smokescreen. It was time to move the convo. I figure the place for serious battle is exC's Lions Den. If the guy's afraid to come here I guess he's not serious or maybe his god is not as strong as he claims. Maybe he just likes to show off his jesus-muscles in front of the female christies. It's not as though I don't have answers for him but I'm not going to yell in church. Or in the sickroom. Let him come here where people are prepared for blood and loud voices, though in controlled amounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Personally I'm offended when people tell me to have a nice day. I'll have whatever the fuck kind of day I want goddamnit. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 Personally I'm offended when people tell me to have a nice day. I'll have whatever the fuck kind of day I want goddamnit. You better stay on your side of the border, you Rank Stranger. You're strange. Here people think "Have a nice day" is a decent thing to say when parting at the cash register. Put another way, if the clerk doesn't say that, I wonder if she/he is having a really seriously bad day, barely holding it together. That's how common it is. Around Christmas or other Christian holidays it's common for them to substitute the line with things like "Have a nice Easter" or "Merry Christmas." The thing that bugged me BIG TIME and took me years to get used to when I came into mainstream society was the greeting, "Hi, how are you?" Am I supposed to tell strangers at cash registrars and bus drivers how dreadfully difficult life is treating me? Because I don't lie and life at the time was barely livable and that was the only honest answer. The proper answer is no but the moral barrier was too big and some did indeed get treated. Being wished a good day was balm to my aching self no matter how superficial or insincere the words. So yeah, if you don't like this kind of civil exchanges between strangers you better stay home where people (apparently) don't bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 PS to Rank Stranger. In case you didn't catch the subtlety of my ramblings...it's okay to have your own kind of day or feel lousy just so long as the public gets its line in the right place and you get yours in. It's all a lie and a sham but the human voice is a human connection with the business that most people appreciate most of the time. So I understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 I was joking, Ruby. Have a nice day 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 It's amusing how this guy didn't even bother to address your points and jumped right to, "So I ask you this, once again, how does something you don't believe exists offend you and why?" Clearly, you didn't even say anything to indicate that you are offended by "God". If this person was to show up, it would sure make the Lion's Den interesting, but it would be no different than trying to debate with Ironhorse. It would end with ex-Cs getting frustrated by having their words twisted, their arguments/ points ignored or misrepresented, and pointless one-liner responses with very little effort put into them. Once that happened, this person would be acting like he's innocent and did nothing wrong when, clearly, he was intentionally trying to agitate us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 I think you're right, crazyguy. That must be why I found him so difficult. It was hard to pinpoint right in the thick of it. All I knew was that it seemed inappropriate to continue on someone else's page. I did not feel free to express myself. After all the problems I've had with family, antagonizing a newly-discovered Christian cousin with atheist rants on *her fb wall* was not something I was going to do. It wasn't right. Maybe that's what he wanted to lure me into doing, just to prove that I was evil. Who knows or cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted November 2, 2014 Author Share Posted November 2, 2014 If this person was to show up Just now I looked at the guy's fb page. I'm not sure what it is but I feel seriously uncomfortable browsing the photo albums. The one I looked at was of a kid's wedding. The images are so alien to anything you'd see in my family--long hair on young men, bare shoulders on the bride--yet the man's attitude of being righteous and holy is identical to my brother's. I always have a problem with this holier-than-thou attitude in people that my own people would condemn as worldly. If God's right and wrong are black and white, how can anyone mix worldly trends and spiritual claims like this? I know it's all cultural conditioning. Bring god and heaven and hell into it and you've got a crazy mix. Whatever it is, I don't think this guy will be seen here. He might get dirty feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 I don't mind Christmas salutations. I don't use the word merry in everyday conversation so I will reply with something else. Xmas is such an entrenched tradition I just enjoy the good parts and ignore the religious aspect. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 I don't mind Christmas salutations. I don't use the word merry in everyday conversation so I will reply with something else. Xmas is such an entrenched tradition I just enjoy the good parts and ignore the religious aspect. Yeah, that's how I see it. It doesn't offend me at all when people say 'merry christmas' unless they're obviously trying to make a political statement- and some are. In that case I'll reply "Happy Holidays!" Matter of fact my FoxNews-obsessed father-in-law went on a rant about "happy holidays" one time... parroting Bill O'Reilly or the like I'm sure. My and my wife's response was to laugh at him- and now we make it a point to exclusively send him "Happy Holidays" cards every year. He's not even particularly religious... he just latches onto whatever the rightwingosphere is bitching about on a given day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted November 2, 2014 Share Posted November 2, 2014 Now that I think about it, I think I'll just altogether change my standard holiday greeting to "Happy Holidays". All of my desired outcomes are built in to that greeting- it's a fucking elegant solution: 1. Takes care of standard holiday well-wishing that normal people seem to find important. 2. Makes it obvious that I'm not a hardcore christian. 3. Doesn't offend the godless or nonchristian. 4. Pisses off the FoxNews parrots. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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