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Holydays And Beyond: Is It Possible To Fit In To A Very Religious Family?


M4rio

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I've been dating my girlfriend a little more than a year-and-a-half and recently her brother announced that he wants to put Christ back into Christmas, partly by removing Santa, removing the tree, and by introducing Christian sermons during simplified gift exchange. Currently, he lives with her parents and his pregnant wife and their son will be here before Christmas. I won't be there this year for other reasons, but the dilemma remains: my religious identity is radically different from all of them. I attend, on occasion, a UU congregation, but I do not believe in supernatural miracles or the resurrection or things like that. In his letter he said something like: "Santa the fat man in a red suit is fake. Jesus is real. I never want my son to question whether Jesus is real or to think I have been dishonest with him about Santa, maybe also about Jesus."

 

Many of her relatives have either attended Christian universities or are in fact employees of Christian universities to this day. They sometimes engage in mission work and evangelism.

 

I am curious how you think an approach like this would go:

 

Me:

 

I've not said too much about this until now, but after I saw Jeff's email (fictional name), it made me think about how I also dislike the idea of lying to children about Santa and the Easter Bunny. Yet, it goes further than that for me.

 

I see how your family is very centered around church and more specifically around your beliefs about Jesus.

 

I also see that there is evangelical outreach that some of you participate in from time to time to bring these beliefs to people who do not currently believe the same things.

 

When I see these things, it makes me feel unsure about my acceptability to all of you.

 

It makes me feel like I am expected to think and believe the same things about Jesus that you and your community believe.

 

And, it makes me feel like if I do not now or do not in the future believe the same way that I will be, at worst, a target of discrimination, or at least distrusted and pitied.

 

I don't want to be distrusted, pitied, or made to feel that I am unacceptable unless I believe the same things about Jesus.

 

I state these fears not because I have specific reason to believe that any of you as an individual would want to make me feel this way, but as someone who has been discriminated against as unacceptable by religious people in my own family and also by friends who stopped talking to me when I didn't believe the same things about Jesus that they and their church believed.

 

These have been painful, traumatic experiences for me, and I don't want to have more like them.

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That article has some very good advice. LGBT people have navigated this one before.

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Coexistite, you didn't mention your girlfriend's religious beliefs. (Probably you mentioned this in other threads, but I have missed it.)

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My thoughts are as per Directionless.  Your girlfriend's attitude is likely to inform the best approach.  To be honest, my preferred plan would be to just stay away and let them get on with it.

 

I certainly would not want to be preached at on Christmas day - that would be a recipe for my becoming even more truculent and anti social than I am usually, and would likely cause some degree of upset.

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I think a lot of this depends on how your gf feels about your unbelief and the extent to which she will back you up with her family.  She may not agree with your unbelief but from what you've said elsewhere she sounds like a very enlightened, humanistic type of believer who will expect her family to behave with courtesy at a minimum.  

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I wouldn't assume they would treat you badly. Odds are they will be insufferable, but there's a chance they can get along with someone who doesn't share their superstitious beliefs. Just a chance. I feel inclined to give everyone the benefit until they prove themselves to be a problem.

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Thanks for the replies everyone.

 

I am thinking now about seeing what happens. I mean, I expect that if Christian belief is as important to them as they seem to display, then they would try to challenge me on my unbelief.

 

I could respond with something like:

 

"I see how important this is to you, and since it is I would expect you to want to discuss it with me. I've long been interested in religion and Christianity. But, I'm a little worried about discussing it with people who have very strong beliefs because I've been treated poorly in the past for not interpreting things identically and it resulted in being cut off from important friends."

 

Maybe that would be a good start?

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I have found that when you try to be nice to these people, they will be nasty right back and tell you to believe in jesus or else. Now that i am out of christianity, i have found that christians are not welcoming to anyone else's beliefs. I understand, this is a difficult thing. Personally, if they are as nice as you are, it will be fine. Good luck....I would just say pray about it. Wendyshrug.gif

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That's a well reasoned article with strong maturity.

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Thanks everyone for your ideas, I appreciate it!

 

The drama escalated as my gf's sister, who is quite religious herself to the point of having a Christian counseling degree and is very active in her church, sent a response to the Memorandum calling her brother out, saying she felt he was acting like a dictator and saying how much she likes Christmas trees and other simple symbols of the holiday season, downplaying their "materialism", and raising the stakes by mentioning that why wouldn't Easter get more attention now too if suddenly it's time to dial up the religiosity?

 

Apparently, their parents thought he was communicating not just with both his sisters but *even with me* about his suggestions to 'improve the holiday'.

 

So I wrote my own letter just to my gf. To summarize, I said I know that this drama is bothering her and her family, and yet I thought it would pale compared to what would happen if her brother actually did confront me on the subject of Christianity, and the assertion that "Jesus is real!". I said I have felt very alone in my own study of the wide range of scholarly debate and interpretation on the question of "Who was Jesus?", and that if her brother or other devout family member wanted to assert that in a dictatorial way that intended to denigrate my own views, the best I could do would be to respond with, "When you say Jesus is real, real in what sense? There are a large number of views on this topic, so what do you mean by it?" -- and that I couldn't see the discussion ending satisfactorily unless the one asserting their claim was willing to enter into a genuine dialogue that considered the long and drawn out history of historical Jesus studies up until today's modern scholarship by academic experts. LOL.

 

I said I'd rather not have that kind of interaction so randomly and feel so alone and singled out. I said I'd like to be able to study the wide range of views and interpretations independently of all the drama, but with her in a way that feels right to her and doesn't make her feel like all I'm doing is airing my own conclusions. I asked for her help in figuring out a strategy to do that. She responded positively.

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These have been painful, traumatic experiences for me, and I don't want to have more like them.

M4rio, These are certainly dilemma's we as non-believers have to face. Sometimes, it's not too bad depending on how fundamentalist they are. Dealing with this type of mentality is probably going to be useless. They will just 'very nicely' try to reconvert you. I have found that there is no sense whatsoever to even try to explain yourself to these fundamentalists. It's pointless. But then again, they may just be 'nice christians' who don't know a thing about the bible and believe that is would be so nice to dedicate the season to the christ baby. It may not be so bad. You will have to play it by ear....personally, I would have a plan of escape if it gets crazy for you. Have a plan B ready... just in case you have to run.....

 

Best of luck to you my friend. It's hard being a non-believer in a world of believers.

 

Hug

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Thanks Margee,

 

I think they are deeply ingrained believers. They grew up attending church 3 times a week. If they nicely try to convert me, I can deal with it if it's genuinely Nice and if-and-only-if they agree to read things I provide as well.

 

If there is no give and take, I will not participate.

 

I'm kind of at a point where I want to actually politely debate people on these things right now haha. There will always be people influenced and indoctrinated into these cultures, and it's time I give back to the secular community by developing the skill of research and debate.

 

That's how I have to look at it :^)

 

 

 

These have been painful, traumatic experiences for me, and I don't want to have more like them.

M4rio, These are certainly dilemma's we as non-believers have to face. Sometimes, it's not too bad depending on how fundamentalist they are. Dealing with this type of mentality is probably going to be useless. They will just 'very nicely' try to reconvert you. I have found that there is no sense whatsoever to even try to explain yourself to these fundamentalists. It's pointless. But then again, they may just be 'nice christians' who don't know a thing about the bible and believe that is would be so nice to dedicate the season to the christ baby. It may not be so bad. You will have to play it by ear....personally, I would have a plan of escape if it gets crazy for you. Have a plan B ready... just in case you have to run.....

 

Best of luck to you my friend. It's hard being a non-believer in a world of believers.

 

Hug

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M4rio, I'm really glad you wrote this topic.

At some point, I'm going to have to face one or more family beyond my immediate family, some of whom are pretty fundamentalist, or were. One cousin has really shocked me. I know she's every bit Christian, but her understanding was remarkable.

But that surely won't be true in all cases. I guess personally you may have to try and decide what you will and won't accept. I take my hat off to you if you're wanting to debate this stuff. Honestly, I'm personally rather sick of the strong debate tactics, as when I was a Christian I was often the only science-friendly one in our circle, and took a lot of flack for years.

Just a suggestion, but were I you, I would resort to the Socratic method instead. Just ask the questions, it's a bit less back-and-forth than the constant debating, question pleading, begging the question, etc., that are the characteristics of the Josh McDowell and William Lane Craig look-alikes.

You could ask a question like: "When you studied Roman history in school, do you remember any Roman census taken where they sent everyone back to their city of origin?" or: "Why would Romans care about the family lineage of an Israeli?" There's a lot of these types of questions you can just ask, let them answer it however they want.

I'm personally not interested in doing the debate thing really, but I've been deconverted only since this past April.

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Thanks Leo,

 

I think what you suggest is more of what I have in mind anyway. I don't want to formally debate people in the family / friends realm. I just want to ensure that we have back-and-forth in terms of reading different things and asking each other questions.

 

However, I do want the experience of reading what *they find convincing* such that I know what to read and suggest in response to offer alternative and deeper views, with the idea that if I ever decide to get involved in the whole debate thing at a larger level, I'll already have experience with knowing where people are coming from.

 

M4rio, I'm really glad you wrote this topic.

At some point, I'm going to have to face one or more family beyond my immediate family, some of whom are pretty fundamentalist, or were. One cousin has really shocked me. I know she's every bit Christian, but her understanding was remarkable.

But that surely won't be true in all cases. I guess personally you may have to try and decide what you will and won't accept. I take my hat off to you if you're wanting to debate this stuff. Honestly, I'm personally rather sick of the strong debate tactics, as when I was a Christian I was often the only science-friendly one in our circle, and took a lot of flack for years.

Just a suggestion, but were I you, I would resort to the Socratic method instead. Just ask the questions, it's a bit less back-and-forth than the constant debating, question pleading, begging the question, etc., that are the characteristics of the Josh McDowell and William Lane Craig look-alikes.

You could ask a question like: "When you studied Roman history in school, do you remember any Roman census taken where they sent everyone back to their city of origin?" or: "Why would Romans care about the family lineage of an Israeli?" There's a lot of these types of questions you can just ask, let them answer it however they want.

I'm personally not interested in doing the debate thing really, but I've been deconverted only since this past April.

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The latest development is that her brother in no uncertain terms told her other sister: "I will not have a Christmas tree in this household, or anything related to Santa Claus." Keep in mind: he's staying in his parents' home right now, for free, and has been for over a year. So, it's not his own household. She asked him if she were to host Christmas in her home and invite him and his wife and son, but she wanted to have a Christmas tree, what would he do. He told her, "I will not judge you for having a tree, but I will NOT attend."

 

I was thinking he can solve it by not putting a Christmas tree in his own bedroom, or perhaps he could even go so far as to hang a No Santa Zone sign on his door so that when he's in there without Christmas gear, people outside will be well aware of his opinions.

 

My gf is not having a good time with this, obviously. I cannot blame her. She feels like her brother is losing his mind over this. She is disappointed that her parents are basically letting him have his way with modifying the Christmas traditions, and alienating both her and their older sister. She doesn't want to visit now for Christmas, nor does her sister -- but she feels like she should because the sister already has her plane ticket, and she wants to be there to support her.

 

Sigh. I wasn't in the conversation that featured those awesome declarations and stern promises, as I won't be up that way this season anyway.

 

They grew up in a very conservative tradition -- The Church of Christ. Is this typical of men in that tradition to be this dogmatically fixated on things like this and to try to belittle women's views so thoroughly? Can a Church's doctrine take an average or better than average man and make him think this way?

 

I don't really know what I could or should do in this kind of situation. On the one hand, I'm not technically a member of their family, but they've always been nice to me and treated me well, and invite me to things like this. If someone wants to have no tree and teach their kids that Santa is fake in their own home, who cares. Fine. But, by the same token, I wonder how open he would be to keeping his mouth shut about Santa in other people's homes or other people telling his kids that Jesus is either dead or mythological -- not "real" still today. But, in a way he's already spoken for that by telling his own sister that he couldn't see himself setting foot into a home that contains a Christmas tree. That kind of makes it hard to go out in the world and spread the gospel.

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This guy is a dick. Dont visit him or a home that he occupies...especially during Christmas.

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If it's not his own home, then how the hell does he have a say in it? lol ridiculous

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I suspect a couple of reasons:

 

His parents either agree, or they are too tired to fight him over it. Their dad had major surgery recently and there is a baby coming soon.

 

In any case it just seems sad how inflexible he is and disrespectful to his sisters :/

 

I'm sure his explanation would be that it's in the bible about not hanging a tree in the house.

 

But there is a wholllllle lot in the old testament that I do not think he holds to, obviously.

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To be honest, it strikes me you are in a position where you have very little room for movement.  This is your girlfriend's family, and any intervention risks causing problems for you.  In your position I'd be inclined to simply discuss this with her if she invites the discussion but otherwise keep out of it.

 

I would also seek to keep as far away from her brother as possible.  In the end, his comment that he will not judge another for having a Christmas tree, but will not visit, is utter hypocrisy and the actions of someone who is seeking blatantly to manipulate others.  That is offensive, and something with which I would not want to associate.  It's an attitude that would make very sure that I would erect such a tree (even though I suffer rather than enjoy Christmas decorations).  How her family sorts out their family problem, however, I would leave very much to them.

 

Of course, you relationship with them might dictate otherwise; this is predicated on how I would deal with my own in-laws.

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Thanks Ellinas. I haven't said anything to any of them except my girlfriend. I wrote an email that I do not plan to send, more as a way of having prepared what I would say if he or anyone were to question me about things like Christmas trees. Basically: that it symbolizes love of family for each other and that given how important it is for his sisters, I would really hate for its absence to be something that makes holiday times less joyous and loving -- especially for his son who shouldn't be caught in the crossfire over things like this to the point that he recalls the holidays as the time when his father and aunts were always bickering and somber with each other.

 

The Bible didn't say it. I don't believe it. That settles it.

 

The ironic thing is that...there are so, so many things the Bible does not have...including electricity. Yet, only a small number of Christians go without that -- although they are mostly not far from where my gf family grew up in PA.

 

To be honest, it strikes me you are in a position where you have very little room for movement. This is your girlfriend's family, and any intervention risks causing problems for you. In your position I'd be inclined to simply discuss this with her if she invites the discussion but otherwise keep out of it.

 

I would also seek to keep as far away from her brother as possible. In the end, his comment that he will not judge another for having a Christmas tree, but will not visit, is utter hypocrisy and the actions of someone who is seeking blatantly to manipulate others. That is offensive, and something with which I would not want to associate. It's an attitude that would make very sure that I would erect such a tree (even though I suffer rather than enjoy Christmas decorations). How her family sorts out their family problem, however, I would leave very much to them.

 

Of course, you relationship with them might dictate otherwise; this is predicated on how I would deal with my own in-laws.

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Thanks Ellinas. I haven't said anything to any of them except my girlfriend. I wrote an email that I do not plan to send, more as a way of having prepared what I would say if he or anyone were to question me about things like Christmas trees. Basically: that it symbolizes love of family for each other and that given how important it is for his sisters, I would really hate for its absence to be something that makes holiday times less joyous and loving -- especially for his son who shouldn't be caught in the crossfire over things like this to the point that he recalls the holidays as the time when his father and aunts were always bickering and somber with each other.

 

The Bible didn't say it. I don't believe it. That settles it.

 

The ironic thing is that...there are so, so many things the Bible does not have...including electricity. Yet, only a small number of Christians go without that -- although they are mostly not far from where my gf family grew up in PA.

 

 

That's a good explanation of why you want a Christmas tree. Another good explanation is  "I want one. I'm going to have one." :-)

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Heh, Midnite: yep I agree, and definitely that will be reason in my gf's own apartment, and if we ever lived together our own place, but for her family they are objecting on biblical grounds. Oh well.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Ellinas. I haven't said anything to any of them except my girlfriend. I wrote an email that I do not plan to send, more as a way of having prepared what I would say if he or anyone were to question me about things like Christmas trees. Basically: that it symbolizes love of family for each other and that given how important it is for his sisters, I would really hate for its absence to be something that makes holiday times less joyous and loving -- especially for his son who shouldn't be caught in the crossfire over things like this to the point that he recalls the holidays as the time when his father and aunts were always bickering and somber with each other.

 

The Bible didn't say it. I don't believe it. That settles it.

 

The ironic thing is that...there are so, so many things the Bible does not have...including electricity. Yet, only a small number of Christians go without that -- although they are mostly not far from where my gf family grew up in PA.

 

That's a good explanation of why you want a Christmas tree. Another good explanation is "I want one. I'm going to have one." :-)

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Awkward moment of the day...speaking with my gf dad on the phone he told me that "The Lord has healed me" in regard to his improved voice after recent surgery, after I commented that he sounded better. I just winced for a second and said I'm glad to hear that.

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