Jesus Was Not Tempted In Every Way As We Are

[Learner]

Hebrews 4:15

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin."

 

Bullshit. 

 

One controversy in Christian circles is: did Jesus have a sin nature?  Some argue that he didn't, because while he was man, he was fully God and therefore couldn't be tempted to sin.  YET the people on the other side of the argument ask the really good question: "If he had no internal nature that could hypothetically sin after being tempted to it, then how could he be tempted as we are?  How can something be tempting if you can't possibly do it?  How is sin tempting if you can't actually sin?"

 

I have never understood nor agreed with the pastoral application of this verse.  I mean, for example, how the hell could Jesus be tempted to "sexual immorality" if he had no sin nature?  You can't tell me he was a young man like anyone else, at one point, and then say he never once had a lustful thought.  If he couldn't sin, then temptation is not temptation.  This just shows the theological wrangling Christians have to do to try to make their religion look like it doesn't have blatant contradictions everywhere.

[TrueFreedom]

He would have to be pretty messed up in order to face every possible temptation.  Was he a bisexual cannibalistic pedophile at heart?  What addictions did he struggle with?  Did he spend time living with wealth as well as poverty?  What physical and mental illnesses must he have suffered?

[Learner]

TrueFreedom, great points!  I couldn't agree with you more.  I just don't understand what the author of Hebrews was thinking...he definitely was being simplistic and reductionistic, if you ask me, making that sort of blanket statement.

 

But, hey, the Bible is notorious for making blanket statements that aren't true.  Like all the psalms talking about God taking care of all the poor, feeding all the hungry, healing diseases, etc.

[Storm]

I struggle with whether or not Jesus sinned. The bible doesn't really say at what point we become sinners. One could argue that we are all sinners at birth due to what Adam and Eve did in eating the fruit. If that is the case, then Jesus was, by definition, a sinner. If someone isn't considered a sinner until he has reached the mental ability to consciously choose to disobey and seek to his/her own choices, irregardless of other's rules or restrictions, then maybe Jesus wasn't a sinner. If all humans are condemned to sin, then Jesus was condemned to sin if he was truly human. If he managed to not sin while walking this earth, it is my opinion that he did so with an unfair advantage that all other humans did not receive. And if this is the case, then what makes what he did for us so special if he did so with that advantage?

 

As TF pointed out, Jesus clearly did not experience the full breadth of what it means to be human. It was certainly not possible for him to do so. So, it is clear that the author of Hebrews was not correct.

 

The nice thing for Christianity is that the understanding of what makes a sinner is vague and open to various interpretations, thus giving the leaders the ability to "discern" from god whatever suits that particular purpose deemed important by the leader.

 

From what I can see, I believe Jesus did sin. He disobeyed his parents when he stayed behind at the temple while the rest of the caravan left the city. But this might be subject to whether or not Jesus was of the age of mental ability to willfully disobey. I believe that because of the response he gave, he knew what he was doing and he did willfully dishonor his parents. While on this note, I find it peculiar that Jesus' childhood is not referenced in the bible other than this particular passage. Maybe its because it wasn't really important, or maybe this was by design because Jesus constantly clashed with his parents over "doing the will of my Father" rather than honoring his parents. I think it is unrealistic that any child can grow from youngster to adult without sinning at all. Based on what we know about human behavior in adolescents, I find it highly probable that Jesus disobeyed his parents on more than one occasion. But if he didn't, then I go back to the Jesus had an unfair advantage that regular humans didn't have. No person fully understands the law and everything it represents and understands what it accomplishes and provides. No adolescent is capable of living a perfect life without making mistakes. Making mistakes is a part of what being human is.

 

You could even argue that part of the temptation experience is what to do after you screwed up. The temptation to lie and save face with the screw up, the temptation to throw your hands up and just give in because you already messed up once. You lose out on the ability to learn from your mistakes and become a better person. And, on top of it all, many Christians truly believe that God uses pain and suffering ad humility to help us grow and mature into better people. They believe that God uses people who are broken and fail to overcome those who are strong. I would even argue that Jesus couldn't even experience true humility because, in order to be truly humble, you have to understand the concept of what it means to be broken. Jesus was certainly not broken. He never failed.

 

It is utopian to think that Jesus was in all ways human. He was not. His ability to live unscathed on this earth was due to divine intervention. And here is the most frustrating part: God did it for Jesus to prove a point, but he leaves everyone else to chance and punishes them because they cannot overcome sin through Jesus' power. God could fix it all by ridding the world of sin. But he doesn't. He lets sin remain on the earth. He lets people die and then casts them into hell because they gave in to sin that he chooses not to remove from this earth. No matter how devout, no matter how closely you follow Christ and do your most very best to not sin, you will still sin. Christ's power doesn't save you from sin. It only saves you from the punishment. Its a get out of jail free card. That's it. So, despite what Romans says in regards to sinning, I say fuck it. Sin anyway. No matter how hard you try, you will always sin. So live life. Ask for forgiveness if you want. or don't. Nothing makes sense anyway. I came to the conclusion that it all was hogwash. So I gave it up. Best decision I made in regards to religion.

[Guest Furball]

Hebrews 4:15

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin."

 

Bullshit. 

 

One controversy in Christian circles is: did Jesus have a sin nature?  Some argue that he didn't, because while he was man, he was fully God and therefore couldn't be tempted to sin.  YET the people on the other side of the argument ask the really good question: "If he had no internal nature that could hypothetically sin after being tempted to it, then how could he be tempted as we are?  How can something be tempting if you can't possibly do it?  How is sin tempting if you can't actually sin?"

 

I have never understood nor agreed with the pastoral application of this verse.  I mean, for example, how the hell could Jesus be tempted to "sexual immorality" if he had no sin nature?  You can't tell me he was a young man like anyone else, at one point, and then say he never once had a lustful thought.  If he couldn't sin, then temptation is not temptation.  This just shows the theological wrangling Christians have to do to try to make their religion look like it doesn't have blatant contradictions everywhere.

Excellent post. Great thinking from a new member. I look forward to more of your posts.

[Learner]

Storm,

Good to hear from you.  You said: "I struggle with whether or not Jesus sinned."  I think if one reads-between-the-lines of the Synoptic Gospels and in their context alone, one sees a Jesus who was a backwater prophet who even said "there is none good but God" when called a "good teacher."  I'm sure he sinned because he was just a human being (if he existed - let's not bring that subject up in this thread), but no way in hell would his gospel-writing fanboys say anything about him sinning or doing wrong.  (They weren't eyewitnesses, of course, since the apostles didn't write them.  So only the good stories about Jesus would get passed by word-of-mouth for some fanboys in other parts of the Empire to write about him, rather than any stories getting passed on about anything he did wrong.)  And you brought up a good point about disobeying his parents...you can see how the fanboy Gospel-writers would gloss over this as just "being about his Father's business."

The Bible seems to indicate that we are all born in sin...that a sin nature is part of what it means to be human.  So the confusing issue then is: why would Jesus not have a sin nature?  And if he did have original sin, why would he not himself be guilty (not for the sake of bearing others sins, supposedly, but just for his own original sin)?  But obviously we're dealing with theologizing about a contradictory book, haha.  If he didn't have a sin nature, then as you said, he had a way-unfair advantage that no other human has had or will have.  Some help it would be to come to him in prayer and say, "I know you were tempted in every way as I am...but, on the other hand, you don't actually truly know because you never had a sin nature"?
 

Regarding Jesus' childhood, I think it's not talked about in the Synoptic Gospels simply because it was before his ministry of teaching, healing, etc.  But, hey, there's always the other non-canonical gospels that talk about his childhood, haha.

 

I definitely sympathize with what you said in your last paragraph.  It just makes me sick to think that God would have Jesus come just to prove a point, but not actually experience temptation to sin.  It's abominable to think that God would condemn the whole world to hell because of what two people did at the creation of the world.  I mean, I'm ashamed of what my ancestors did to Native Americans a couple hundred years ago when settling in America, but no way in hell can I be condemned for what those bastards did to the Native Americans.  Even moreso, how the hell am I condemned for two people eating a piece of fruit thousands of years ago?  The whole magical idea of original sin carried on to the whole human race for this is preposterous.  And I feel bad for Christians who spend their whole lives in guilt and feeling bad for sin and focusing on avoiding sin.  I mean, I try to live a very moral life, but I realize we all do good and we all make mistakes...it's just human nature.  Instead of feeling guilty and focusing on sin all the time, I just live life and do what I want.  It's really great to be free of religion!

Thank you for your thoughts.

[themonkeyman]

In the infancy gospels its well recorded of Jesus blinding a man who criticised Josephs carpentry. He continually disrespected his mother and cursed many in Nazareth. He was almost forced put of the city.

 

There was a story where a young boy was running and bumped into Jesus. Jesus caused the boy who then withered up and died.

 

If Jesus as a kid is God he's Alan from toy story with a magnifying glass