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Goodbye Jesus

What If Constantine Had *not* Converted?


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What do you think the modern world would look like had Constantine never converted to Christianity? Purely a hypothetical question. (Or what if his army lost the battle where he'd had that vision of the cross?)

 

I'm no historian, but I wonder if Christianity today would maybe be about the same size as the world Jewish population, if not smaller. How much longer would've "paganism" been the dominant religion? Would've Mohammed ever come into contact with Arian Christians and would his religion have been any different? (Would the Library of Alexandria still be around?) Would science and other things continued to develop from its Ancient Greek days? Would the worship of the Roman gods have faded out more and more and the world of today not be as religious?

 

Again, I'm no historian, just a layman whose read a few books. And I'm not trying to say Constantine would be responsible for everything, but he definitely had a decisive role in history. Just something I think about sometimes.

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Everyone who is Christian today would be a member of whatever religion Rome used instead.  If Rome had used Mithraism to conquer Western Civilization then today Mithraism would enjoy the popularity we see with Christianity.  Or if Rome had stuck with it's original religion then the Pontifex Maximus would have arrested Galileo for blasphemy against the god Jupiter.  Who could dare to use a spy glass to look at a god?  Then centuries later some new Pontifex Maximus would get a divine revelation that "the planets as gods" was simply a metaphor and the real divine truth is the gods of the gaps.

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I think we can't possibly make a prediction how almost 2000 years of history would have turned out differently without the cult; it's interesting though to speculate. So many things could have happened... maybe the world would now be a place without the unholy alliance of secular politics (and greed) and a monotheistic cult of any kind... maybe someone else would have come up with a monotheistic idea of whatever kind... damn so many possibilities :)

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What do you think the modern world would look like had Constantine never converted to Christianity? Purely a hypothetical question. (Or what if his army lost the battle where he'd had that vision of the cross?)
 
Its effects would have been impossible to predict in the long-term because of the Butterfly Effect-maybe Rome survives longer, maybe the Empire collapses even more badly without the Byzantines sticking around as a remnant. One thing we can be sure about is that by now the world would basically be unrecognizable.
 
 
I'm no historian, but I wonder if Christianity today would maybe be about the same size as the world Jewish population, if not smaller. 
 

 

 

Could probably well be the case like Zorastarianism. Also could have gone wholly extinct like Mithraism or Manichaeism but it could also have thrived even without official support until much later.

 

How much longer would've "paganism" been the dominant religion? 

 

Probably not for much longer-both henotheism and other Mystery religions were gaining ground in Rome.

 

 

Would've Mohammed ever come into contact with Arian Christians and would his religion have been any different?

 

Mohammed wouldn't exist.

 

 (Would the Library of Alexandria still be around?)

 

Most likely not, its likely the city would have been sacked one way or another unless someone invents a printing press really early.

 

 Would science and other things continued to develop from its Ancient Greek days? Would the worship of the Roman gods have faded out more and more and the world of today not be as religious?

 


Its possible but unlikely as science had reached a dead-end by late Roman times. The world could very well be more religious depending on circumstances. 

 

I read that before constantine was forced to convert by his mother, christianity had all but died out at that point. 

 

 

Um no. Constantine never converted because of his mother (although I believe she was Christian) and Christianity was pretty widespread in the Empire by the early 4th Century which is probably what allowed it to survive the savage persecution under Diocletian.

 

I think we can't possibly make a prediction how almost 2000 years of history would have turned out differently without the cult; it's interesting though to speculate. So many things could have happened... maybe the world would now be a place without the unholy alliance of secular politics (and greed) and a monotheistic cult of any kind... maybe someone else would have come up with a monotheistic idea of whatever kind... damn so many possibilities smile.png

 

Monotheism existed for a long time before Constantine including its alliance with secular politics. 

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Christianity would have survived with or without Constantine. It was already at least 300 years old by that time, and had priests and congregations in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, Armenia, and Persia. If it had died in the Roman Empire, it would have survived elsewhere. 

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     Constantine really just legalized the whole mess.  Things weren't even really worked out for nearly a century afterwards.  This included a quick return to being illegal and then the fight over what "brand" of xianity would finally be the officially accepted one in the empire.  On top of this the tales of just when Constantine converted are sketchy in themselves.  One has him converting because of a sign related to a big battle and the other was a death bed conversion after a life of worshiping Sol Invictus.  Just like with pot today the fact that he legalized it doesn't mean he used it himself beyond a political means.

 

          mwc

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I would really be interested in learning about all the various early forms of Christianity before Rome took over. I bet they would be largely unrecognizable to what we have today.

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I've not really studied this much but I'm having a hard time believing that if Constantine hadn't put his stamp of approval on the religion that it wouldn't have become the mega religion it is today.  It's my understanding that xianity essentially replaced the infrastructure of the Roman pagan religions that preceded it, mirroring the priesthood, adopting the rituals, etc...  None of this stuff is found in the bible, it's all Roman.  I need some convincing to believe that the religion would be what it is today without the Romans because there are a lot of dead religions out there that xianity replaced or left behind. 

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This is very interesting since I grew up in the Roman church. Could anyone lead me to some reading material/websites on this topic? Thanks!

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I can say for certain that if not Constantine, it would have been the next guy.

 

By 325AD, 55% of the Roman Empire was Christian.

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It seems to me that by the time Constantine came into the picture, the biggest issue was not the existence or number of Christians. Rather, the issue was what was Christianity. Just take a look at the Gostic works (Nag Hamadi) and in some ways I have a hard time seeing what I recognize as Christianity. It was under Constantine's authority that the Nicean Council was called which eventually led to a far more united church, including eventually it's theology, canon, and the united Roman Church.

 

If Constantine had played no role, it is possible that Christianity would have remained highly diverse and thus without the central control enjoyed by the Roman Church for so many centuries until Martin Luther successfully stirred the pot.

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Constantine's "conversion" wasn't a legitimate one. At the very least, I doubt it due to what he did at the Council at Nicea in 325 AD. With 55% of the Roman Empire Christian, and a need for stability as the Empire was beginning its final downward spiral toward the eventual breakup between the Western and Eastern Empire, Constantine thought the best way to hedge his bets and to ensure the stability of his reign was to change out from a losing horse to a winning one.

 

If Constantine hadn't done it, someone else would have. The Roman Empire would never have been able to quell the spread of Christianity during Constantine's era, it was far too late (their best bet was to ignore the Christians like they had the Jews and any other local religion-The Romans were very liberal on that point; so long as you abided by Roman law, you could worship whatever deity you wished. By targeting the Christians, the Christians were forced to spread, and stories of martyrs only helped giving legitimacy to its teachings).

 

The next person to become Emperor would have "converted" just like Constantine did, and would have established the official religion of the Roman Empire to be Christian without a doubt. Like Constantine, he would have used the religion to solidify himself and the Empire: If you say that there's only one true religion, and that to disagree with Orthodoxy will lead to being anathematized, and then you add that the Empire now subscribes to said religion, you have the perfect instrument to keep dissent toward the Empire down.

 

If you need any proof of its effectiveness, realize that every nation in Medieval Europe was led by, and worked in conjunction with, the Catholic Church. The Church, while officially not participating in the "realm of the State", had bishops that Kings would handpick to help keep the masses docile and loyal to their deity (who was, of course, picked by God himself; even if it was a tyrant, that was God punishing the population for their sins. A very convenient system, and extremely effective).

 

Ironically, both the Roman Empire and the Medieval/Renaissance Kings began separating when their religions did. One of the reasons Roman Empire divided over whether the Empire would use Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, and when the Empire split, it split along the lines of which areas believed in what. During the Reformation, the formerly somewhat-unified European monarchies split apart when certain nations became Protestant. Obviously, every single split and religion change was done to aid the existing ruler (and would benefit any future monarch), but I think the point stands.

 

Religion doesn't unify. As soon as someone comes up with a different way to see things, the "unified" nations crumble and quickly turn against each other. Religion, when used in conjunction with the State, only is used as a control mechanism.

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My spouse and i examine of which before constantine seemed to be compelled for you to transform by means of the new mother, christianity received nearly not survived at that point.

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Is that supposed to be a meaningful sentence or just a string of words? People keep saying that I'm damn good regarding the English language but this beats me... :blink:

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Is that supposed to be a meaningful sentence or just a string of words? People keep saying that I'm damn good regarding the English language but this beats me... blink.png

 

Looks like that phrase is a victim of Google translate.  I wouldn't blame it on the poster. 

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That might be of course. Oh well.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_If%3F_(essays)

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_If%3F_2

 

 

Counterfactual history is fun and overlaps with theoretical physics...!

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

 

250px-Sobel_North_America.gif

 

Somewhere, far far away there could be an Earth where Constantine didn't convert to Christianity.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

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Guest Furball

My spouse and i examine of which before constantine seemed to be compelled for you to transform by means of the new mother, christianity received nearly not survived at that point.

Me not understand statement. Oh my zoroaster, i thought i was this sites most shittiest typer. -oh yes

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  • 2 weeks later...

We would have landed on the moon in 1492 instead of just sailing a boat to the 'new world.'

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He hee :fdevil:

 

That (admittedly very caustic) site jesusneverexisted.com had a nice image up somewhere (when I last looked which was quite some time ago) that was a perfect symbol of that "might have been". An image of Mr Ford, the father of the modern assembly line, with the caption "Fordicus?". Implying that without the jebus cult maybe Imperial Rome would have come up with that idea already, who knows? :lmao:

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emperor constatine, who gave christianity freedom, was actually still a pagan, thus he is still using pagan mindset rather than christianity


some of proof including:


1. constatine never abandoned sun worship:


    -  he kept sun in his coin


    -  he built the statue of sun god in his new capital of constatinopel


    -  he built the statue of cybele


2. in AD 321 he decreed sunday as the day of rest, and most likely to honour mithras, the unconquered sun (sunday: day of the sun)


3. mosaic of christ as unqonquered sun in st peter excavation


4. he retain the title pontifex maximus almost to his dying day ( chief of pagan priest) -> function like catholic pope 


5. he blessed his new capital with pagan magic formula to protect crops and heal desease


6. church of apostle in constatinople included 12 apostles statues circling a single tomb reserved for himself, making him the 13th and chief apostle - > pagan practise to honour the death and as significant death


7. he was delcared divine (pagan god) by senate after he died


8. obsession of sacred object and relic (from pagan influenced) : he promotes the idea that the woods came from christ cross possessed spiritual power

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regarding 6. above. I saw a documentary where they speculated Constantine actually saw himself as a Christ figure, placing his tomb in the center of the 12 apostles tombs / relics. That he saw a connection to Christianity because it reinforced His belief / general propoganda that the Emperor was a diety... Jesus was also a deity who took on fleshly form.

 

I think without Constantine, it would have remained more of a middle eastern / african curiosity with a diverse range of views. It was far more established in Africa and the Middle East, more of a curiosity in Europe at the time of his conversion. In the History of Christianity, MacDiarmaid describes how after the sacking of Rome by the "barbarians", the Roman power system basically folded into the Catholic Church. This sudden influx of power / money / resources / ambition was a key factor promoting the dominance of "western" christianity, which is by far the most dominant form on earth today (containing Catholocism, and all branches of protestantism). Im also pretty sure if the industrial revolution occurred first in an "eastern" christian nation, or Moslem nation things would also look different. I think the key is how the meme of religion hitches itself onto structures of power. The meme isnt really able to spread in and of itself. According to Wikipedia, there are currently 18 million jews. Judaism wasnt able to hitch its ideas to sources of worldly power so never gained widespread prominence. Compare that to the 2-3 billion Christians.

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Guest Furball

 

emperor constatine, who gave christianity freedom, was actually still a pagan, thus he is still using pagan mindset rather than christianity

some of proof including:

1. constatine never abandoned sun worship:

    -  he kept sun in his coin

    -  he built the statue of sun god in his new capital of constatinopel

    -  he built the statue of cybele

2. in AD 321 he decreed sunday as the day of rest, and most likely to honour mithras, the unconquered sun (sunday: day of the sun)

3. mosaic of christ as unqonquered sun in st peter excavation

4. he retain the title pontifex maximus almost to his dying day ( chief of pagan priest) -> function like catholic pope 

5. he blessed his new capital with pagan magic formula to protect crops and heal desease

6. church of apostle in constatinople included 12 apostles statues circling a single tomb reserved for himself, making him the 13th and chief apostle - > pagan practise to honour the death and as significant death

7. he was delcared divine (pagan god) by senate after he died

8. obsession of sacred object and relic (from pagan influenced) : he promotes the idea that the woods came from christ cross possessed spiritual power

 

I never knew any of that. Thanks for sharing the info. I love learning.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm no historian, but from what I understand, Constantine was a Mithrain, one reason this is believed is based on the sculptures he commissioned for himself featuring Mithrain priests (and their tell-tale smurf hats), but he was never himself a Christian, that was a political move to get those radicals fighting for him and to unify the masses under one doctrine/ecclesia. He stopped the persecution (if that was really happening and not mere "Church tradition" as many of the martyr accounts appear to be, such as Peter being crucified upside down), and blended paganism with Christianity (Yule/Saturnalia became Christ's Mass). Mithrainism was an elite cult, so doubtful a true Mithrain would want the masses to join. Pick something more...common ;-)

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