Which Is Greater

[Guest end3]

I was honest, I am honest. If it weren't for your own subjectivity you would know. Your own misunderstanding is a good example of this

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I was honest, I am honest. If it weren't for your own subjectivity you would know. Your own misunderstanding is a good example of this

Your honesty is subjective, End3, just like everything else, remember?  Because I know you are not being objectively honest, how can I, or anyone else, trust you?

[bornagainathiest]

I was honest, I am honest. If it weren't for your own subjectivity you would know. Your own misunderstanding is a good example of this

 

Apply the words, "everything is subjective" to your honesty, End.

 

What happens?  Your honesty becomes subjective.

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Just as the Prof has pointed out.

 

So you can (subjectively) believe you are being honest, but you can never (objectively) know that you are.

 

Nor can any one else.  It becomes impossible to trust anything you write.

[bornagainathiest]

Apply the words, "everything is subjective" to yourself and what happens?

 

Everything you are, you think, you feel and you know becomes subjective.

 

You are NOT exempt from your own standard - that's what being honest means here.

 

Now please be honest and apply your own standard to yourself.

[Guest end3]

 

I was honest, I am honest. If it weren't for your own subjectivity you would know. Your own misunderstanding is a good example of this

Your honesty is subjective, End3, just like everything else, remember?  Because I know you are not being objectively honest, how can I, or anyone else, trust you?

 

Your perception of my honesty is subjective. And we have admitted, pretty much all of you, that science can't take away the subjectivity of the brain. Hence let's talk John 17 again where the solution is to have a relationship......about the only way. But you two keep being pricks.....it's representative of "most of you" as NZ states.

[Guest end3]

Apply the words, "everything is subjective" to yourself and what happens?

 

Everything you are, you think, you feel and you know becomes subjective.

 

You are NOT exempt from your own standard - that's what being honest means here.

 

Now please be honest and apply your own standard to yourself.

I haven't changed my opinion. Everything I think is subjective to me. You are NOT exempt from my standard either until you define the complexity of the brain and the environment simultaneously. You would think that being as sciency as you are BAA, that you would understand this....but you don't and probably never will because YOU can't be honest and let your pride suffer because you have built you entire life around being captain logic. That's somewhat sad BAA.

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

There is no way of knowing which is greater, End3, given that everything is subjective.

I agree, but we can agree on subjective perceptions. Worried that you would ally yourself with BAA and this childlike behavior.

 

I thought childlike behavior was the goal of a christian.  Furthermore, if our perceptions are subjective, then they are personal to each of us.  They may be similar enough that we don't fight over them; but how can we truly agree when I don't fully know or understand your subjective perceptions?

 

End, most of us already agree with BAA and support his attempts to keep you honest,  because we don't think everything is subjective.  We just don't post every time because the threads would become clogged with 15 identical posts for every one of yours.  Don't mistake the small number KYH posts for the idea that BAA, TRP, and the others who make them are somehow outliers.  I commend BAA and TRP for their constant work in reminding you of your own words.

 

And you are just rude....and bigoted.

[mymistake]

Congradulations End!  You have now sent yourself to the hell where you cannot know anything and nothing has any meaning.  Look at what your religion makes you give.

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

I was honest, I am honest. If it weren't for your own subjectivity you would know. Your own misunderstanding is a good example of this

Your honesty is subjective, End3, just like everything else, remember?  Because I know you are not being objectively honest, how can I, or anyone else, trust you?

 

Your perception of my honesty is subjective.

 

As is your own perception of your honesty.

 

And we have admitted, pretty much all of you, that science can't take away the subjectivity of the brain.

 

Science is (by your own standard) subjective also - so that conclusion is subjective, not objective.

 

Hence let's talk John 17 again where the solution is to have a relationship......about the only way.

 

If EVERYTHING is subjective there is no "only way".  There are no exceptions to your own rule, End.

 

Apply your own rule properly and relationships are as subjective as everything else - they tell you nothing reliable.  They give you no objective truth.  

 

John 17 is as subjective as your thoughts, your memories, your identity and EVERYTHING else in your subjective reality.

 

THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS, NO EXEMPTIONS AND NO ESCAPE CLAUSES.

 

But you two keep being pricks.....it's representative of "most of you" as NZ states.

 

[bornagainathiest]

 

Apply the words, "everything is subjective" to yourself and what happens?

 

Everything you are, you think, you feel and you know becomes subjective.

 

You are NOT exempt from your own standard - that's what being honest means here.

 

Now please be honest and apply your own standard to yourself.

I haven't changed my opinion. Everything I think is subjective to me. You are NOT exempt from my standard either until you define the complexity of the brain and the environment simultaneously.

 

That standard is (by your own admission) subjective and so cannot be relied on.  It's just a subjective belief on your part.  Nothing more.

 

You would think that being as sciency as you are BAA, that you would understand this....but you don't and probably never will because YOU can't be honest and let your pride suffer because you have built you entire life around being captain logic. That's somewhat sad BAA.

 

There's nothing personal about this, End.

 

You simply aren't applying your own subjectivity to yourself.

 

[Guest end3]

 

 

 

I was honest, I am honest. If it weren't for your own subjectivity you would know. Your own misunderstanding is a good example of this

Your honesty is subjective, End3, just like everything else, remember?  Because I know you are not being objectively honest, how can I, or anyone else, trust you?

 

Your perception of my honesty is subjective.

 

As is your own perception of your honesty.

 

And we have admitted, pretty much all of you, that science can't take away the subjectivity of the brain.

 

Science is (by your own standard) subjective also - so that conclusion is subjective, not objective.

 

Hence let's talk John 17 again where the solution is to have a relationship......about the only way.

 

If EVERYTHING is subjective there is no "only way".  There are no exceptions to your own rule, End.

 

Apply your own rule properly and relationships are as subjective as everything else - they tell you nothing reliable.  They give you no objective truth.  

 

John 17 is as subjective as your thoughts, your memories, your identity and EVERYTHING else in your subjective reality.

 

THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS, NO EXEMPTIONS AND NO ESCAPE CLAUSES.

 

But you two keep being pricks.....it's representative of "most of you" as NZ states.

 

 

And Jesus preaches faith. Your point? Nice "proof" for Christ.

[Guest end3]

 

 

Apply the words, "everything is subjective" to yourself and what happens?

 

Everything you are, you think, you feel and you know becomes subjective.

 

You are NOT exempt from your own standard - that's what being honest means here.

 

Now please be honest and apply your own standard to yourself.

I haven't changed my opinion. Everything I think is subjective to me. You are NOT exempt from my standard either until you define the complexity of the brain and the environment simultaneously.

 

That standard is (by your own admission) subjective and so cannot be relied on.  It's just a subjective belief on your part.  Nothing more.

 

You would think that being as sciency as you are BAA, that you would understand this....but you don't and probably never will because YOU can't be honest and let your pride suffer because you have built you entire life around being captain logic. That's somewhat sad BAA.

 

There's nothing personal about this, End.

 

You simply aren't applying your own subjectivity to yourself.

 

 

I'm not worried about it BAA. I have a subjective conversation daily with others doing the same thing. When we would care to get more certain, we apply science. Again, your point?

[Orbit]

End, the problem with you saying everything is subjective is that no one can trust anything you say now, because it's all subjective. You've trapped yourself. The only way out is to admit that there is an objective reality that we can agree on.

[Fweethawt]

End, the problem with you saying everything is subjective is that no one can trust anything you say now, because it's all subjective. You've trapped yourself. The only way out is to admit that there is an objective reality that we can agree on.

Yep. I can't speak for anyone else, but before I typed my response to the OP, my first thought was, "Okay, End, I'll play along here to see where it goes."

 

And once again it boiled down to a bunch of meaninglessness.

[mydisplayname]

End, I like debating with you as you are capable of debate unlike most/all other fundies on here. We're not going to be able to continue any form of discussion until the subjectivity issue is sorted out.

 

We have to sort this out. I myself would be ok if you would like to reconsider any statement you've made. We're human. We're allowed to change our mind.

[Guest end3]

End, I like debating with you as you are capable of debate unlike most/all other fundies on here. We're not going to be able to continue any form of discussion until the subjectivity issue is sorted out.

 

We have to sort this out. I myself would be ok if you would like to reconsider any statement you've made. We're human. We're allowed to change our mind.

Thx F. I'm not totally thick. I will be glad to listen to different ideas. I could be misunderstanding. Please feel free to put your understanding out there.

[mydisplayname]

 

End, I like debating with you as you are capable of debate unlike most/all other fundies on here. We're not going to be able to continue any form of discussion until the subjectivity issue is sorted out.

 

We have to sort this out. I myself would be ok if you would like to reconsider any statement you've made. We're human. We're allowed to change our mind.

Thx F. I'm not totally thick. I will be glad to listen to different ideas. I could be misunderstanding. Please feel free to put your understanding out there.

 

 

I'm not trying to call you thick. I have some very smart and highly qualified Christian family members. My concern merely relates to the fact that there can be no dialog until this subjective thing has been sorted out.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

 

There is no way of knowing which is greater, End3, given that everything is subjective.

I agree, but we can agree on subjective perceptions. Worried that you would ally yourself with BAA and this childlike behavior.

 

I thought childlike behavior was the goal of a christian.  Furthermore, if our perceptions are subjective, then they are personal to each of us.  They may be similar enough that we don't fight over them; but how can we truly agree when I don't fully know or understand your subjective perceptions?

 

End, most of us already agree with BAA and support his attempts to keep you honest,  because we don't think everything is subjective.  We just don't post every time because the threads would become clogged with 15 identical posts for every one of yours.  Don't mistake the small number KYH posts for the idea that BAA, TRP, and the others who make them are somehow outliers.  I commend BAA and TRP for their constant work in reminding you of your own words.

 

And you are just rude....and bigoted.

 

 

And your repeated "fuck you" comments aren't rude?  How am I bigoted?  Disagreeing with someone and trying to keep them honest isn't rude or bigoted.  It's life.

 

(And I realise I accidentally upvoted your post and I can't undo it.  I meant to hit the quote button.  So don't take it as some kind of compliment or anything.)

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

End, I like debating with you as you are capable of debate unlike most/all other fundies on here. We're not going to be able to continue any form of discussion until the subjectivity issue is sorted out.

 

We have to sort this out. I myself would be ok if you would like to reconsider any statement you've made. We're human. We're allowed to change our mind.

Thx F. I'm not totally thick. I will be glad to listen to different ideas. I could be misunderstanding. Please feel free to put your understanding out there.

 

This is simply not true.  You made this very same claim in the "Grace Is The Knowledge..." thread.  I then put forth a very elegant idea.  Your response was to simply glaze over it with "wow, that was nicely written."  You're not willing to listen to other ideas.  You simply want to change the subject because you realize you've backed yourself into a corner.  Why would you want to entertain other ideas anyway, since, in your mind, they would be just a subjective as your own?

 

And, no, BAA and I are not being pricks (you're the one who keeps trying to make this personal).  There's nothing prickish about holding someone accountable for their words.

[bornagainathiest]

Ok End,

 

You'd like to know what my point is?  Very well.  I'll oblige..

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You claim that everything is subjective.

Then your faith is just as subjective as everything else in your life.

When you say that you have no option but to go with faith - that's subjective too.

As is any thought you can think and anything you can write here.

 

It doesn't matter what option you go with - everything is still subjective.

There is no escape.  There are no exemptions.  There are no exceptions.

You can go with faith in anything you like and all your options will still be subjective.

There's no point in preferring any given option, because they are all subjective.

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If everything is subjective (your words, your standard) then why are you going with faith?

 

(Please answer.)

 

Any choice you make is no better and no worse than any other, End ...can't you see that?

 

(Please answer.)

 

So there's no value and no real honesty in opting for faith over anything else, is there?

 

(Please answer.)

 

You might believe there is, but by your own standard, this belief is subjective too.

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Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Guest end3]

Ok End,

 

You'd like to know what my point is?  Very well.  I'll oblige..

.

.

.

You claim that everything is subjective.

Then your faith is just as subjective as everything else in your life.

When you say that you have no option but to go with faith - that's subjective too.

As is any thought you can think and anything you can write here.

 

It doesn't matter what option you go with - everything is still subjective.

There is no escape.  There are no exemptions.  There are no exceptions.

You can go with faith in anything you like and all your options will still be subjective.

There's no point in preferring any given option, because they are all subjective.

.

.

.

If everything is subjective (your words, your standard) then why are you going with faith?

 

(Please answer.)

 

Any choice you make is no better and no worse than any other, End ...can't you see that?

 

(Please answer.)

 

So there's no value and no real honesty in opting for faith over anything else, is there?

 

(Please answer.)

 

You might believe there is, but by your own standard, this belief is subjective too.

.

.

.

Thanks,

 

BAA.

BAA, I'm open, through our best objective efforts, for anyone to explain to me how this is not the objective stance I should take.

 

And please don't deviate or deflect off of this very specific point. 

[bornagainathiest]

 

Ok End,

 

You'd like to know what my point is?  Very well.  I'll oblige..

 

You claim that everything is subjective.

Then your faith is just as subjective as everything else in your life.

When you say that you have no option but to go with faith - that's subjective too.

As is any thought you can think and anything you can write here.

 

It doesn't matter what option you go with - everything is still subjective.

There is no escape.  There are no exemptions.  There are no exceptions.

You can go with faith in anything you like and all your options will still be subjective.

There's no point in preferring any given option, because they are all subjective.

 

If everything is subjective (your words, your standard) then why are you going with faith?

 

(Please answer.)

 

Any choice you make is no better and no worse than any other, End ...can't you see that?

 

(Please answer.)

 

So there's no value and no real honesty in opting for faith over anything else, is there?

 

(Please answer.)

 

You might believe there is, but by your own standard, this belief is subjective too.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

BAA, I'm open, through our best objective efforts, for anyone to explain to me how this is not the objective stance I should take.

 

And please don't deviate or deflect off of this very specific point. 

 

 

Don't deviate or deflect?       

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.

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Yesterday you asked me what my point was. (Twice!)

 

I've responded, but the making of my point comes with you answering my three questions. 

 

My point isn't made until you answer them all honestly and in full.

 

End, I'm more than happy to do as you ask, but the onus is squarely on you to answer me before I oblige you. 

 

I have chronological precedence over you in this and I cannot honor your request until you answer.

 

So please do so.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[sdelsolray]

End3 has derailed his own thread.  That's funny.

[StillLooking]

End3,

 

I am with BAA and TRP here. They both gave you very clear alternative ways of thinking and I can tell they put their efforts in presenting their ideas. Would you please read their ideas carefully and thoughtfully, if you respect them, that is?

 

Edit:

I am also interested in your answers to BAA's questions. I am waiting...

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Here's the problem, End3.  Everything is subjective.  That means everything you say, everything you think, every positive claim, sweeping statement, or simple opinion you give is, by your own definition, subjective.  This means that none of these things has been considered objectively.  As a result, nothing that comes from you will be trustworthy to anyone who is objective.

 

But here's the other side of that coin.  If I (make the same mistake twice) offer you my own ideas, to which you claim to be open (and we know already that's a lie), I do so knowing that, in your mind, everything is subjective.  The result of this is that, even if I give you an objective idea of the objective reality around you (as I did in the "Grace Is The Knowledge..." thread), you will assume it is subjective, because your subjective beliefs (faith) will not allow you to do otherwise, despite the fact that alternatives have been pointed out repeatedly.  Since you will make this assumption, the only logical conclusion for you will be that my idea, being "subjective", is also untrustworthy.

 

You speak of "grace and relationships"; but now, because of your subjective beliefs (faith), we come to the point at which we can no longer trust one another.  This isn't a problem with me; nor is it a problem with you.  The problem is that your faith stands between you and I (and the other members of this site).

 

Would you continue to allow your faith to stand between yourself and those who care about you?