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Goodbye Jesus

Another Fundy Goes To Ground


R. S. Martin

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What is it that fundies walk away (or delete posts) rather than actually take on real debate? Since I copied the thread I can post it here for discussion. The OP was the following picture from Right Wing News's Photo from Facebook:

 

15hgy9e.jpg

 

I responded: Dear christian, if you are praying to God in the privacy of your closet like Jesus commands in Matt. 6:6, Why do you worry that I will care? For a deeper understanding of why atheists care about your religion, please watch this video "Why Atheists Care About YOUR Religion" at

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1ImMtHrrKo#t=164

 

Long story short, atheists care about religion, especially the Christian and Muslim religions because those two religions try to force their individual ideas of society on the rest of us. "Secular government" does not mean "atheist government," it means doing government without mixing in religion. Making laws that help societies function well, without reference to a Holy Book or God's/Allah's will. I know of no atheist who forbid religion and prayer inside private homes and places of worship.

 

Fundy's Reply Why should we not be allowed to pray wherever we wish?

My Response Where or how do you want to pray that you think you're not allowed? I don't understand Christians who protest every time atheists demand equal rights, such as not being subjected to religious rites in public places. That's what that post seemed to be about so that's what I responded to.

 

SUMMARY: No one responded to or "liked" my last response but another fundy "liked" the question I answered. icon_e_confused.gif 

I wonder why purportedly honest people don't read or respond to the answer if they think the question was good. I mean, an honest person asking an honest question appreciates an honest answer. Which is what I gave. So these people aren't drawing guns but they are ganging up. I didn't know that when I started posting.

 

A DAY LATER

 

An atheist says that in her opinion it's okay to pray anywhere Christians want. From there, the conversation continues as follows.


Me: I don't know where A____ (Fundy) wishes to pray that she thinks atheists won't let her. Some atheists disagree that public prayer should be allowed in such places as public school or in parliament, for example. Obviously, no one will object if a Christian prays privately before a meeting, or if religious people have a prayer meeting, though perhaps not on the public dollar. Or if prayer rooms are provided for Muslims, perhaps exhortation rooms should be provided for atheists to be fair to everyone. Just a thought.

Fundy: So we aren't allowed to have prayer rooms for us?

Me: A____, I have no idea where you're coming from with this attitude of "we aren't allowed" this or that. As you know, prayer rooms are provided for Muslims in some places. Maybe they should be provided for everyone. Since atheists don't pray but they do exhort each other, maybe we should be given exhortation rooms in lieu of prayer rooms.

When she does not reply, I post again.

Me: A_____, can we have a rational discussion about this, without one person acting like everyone is out to get them? In your OP you made what I consider a false accusation about atheists. I did my best to set the record straight but you came out with more false accusations. Can we clear this up?

As of this moment, there is no response. I simply do not understand this kind of "Christian love."

UPDATE: An hour later that thread is deleted. I guess this person cannot face her prejudices. Or possibly it is a way of saying she was wrong to post it in the first place. In my opinion, a verbal apology or explanation would be in order to indicate reason for deleting or lessons learned.
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Xians seem to like feeling persecuted.

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Xians seem to like feeling persecuted.

 

Yep..all those biblical prophecies on suffering for their god/beliefs become self-fulfilling ones that make them feel soooooo "speshul"...  GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

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Right now the big thing is that Christians, and only Christians, should open government meetings with prayers to Jesus.  Christians find prayers to other gods or goddesses or even invocations to philosophy as unacceptable.  Government time will be spent praying to Jesus.  It you don't want to pray to Jesus then tough.  If you would rather pray to someone else then tough.  Stop persecuting Christians by asking them to not force their religion on everyone else.

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I've been observing discussions on FB posts by a few brave ex-c friends who invite them from their xian friends.  Ultimately the xians always slink off without responding to the calm, reasoned posts by ex-cs.  Their tactics melt in the face of logic, they have no answers and will never admit they are wrong.

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I've been observing discussions on FB posts by a few brave ex-c friends who invite them from their xian friends.  Ultimately the xians always slink off without responding to the calm, reasoned posts by ex-cs.  Their tactics melt in the face of logic, they have no answers and will never admit they are wrong.

 

That is EXACTLY what I see happening. This fundy is my cousin. She was a great support this past year through all kinds of personal issues, starting with the death of my father and an antagonistic family. This cousin's parents left the horse and buggy church so she sympathized with me on the strict old church and we were great friends for a year. 

 

When the weather was nice all through spring, summer, and fall, when I walked my dog I'd often take my camera with me and then post pictures online of the trees, flowers, and sunny skies. My cousin had similar interests and we bonded on Facebook through sharing pictures. But winter came extremely early for this part of the world and the camera stayed home. She and her sister are always, always posting posters about their beliefs so I decided to balance things up a bit by doing the same. I started experimenting with making online posters. Here's one I made that I expected her to "like" but she didn't: 

 

scx8no.jpg

 

Since she did not "like" a statement on basic human respect I lost confidence in her as a trustworthy human being. I'm no longer sure that she's any better than my own siblings whose single goal in life is to win me back to religion. 

 

One of the things she supported me in this past year was a neighbour who was extra-ordinarily nasty, blocking my driveway, and failing to honour parking contracts. My cousin encouraged the idea of talking things over. Yet now when I ask for an open and rational discussion she deletes the conversation. 

 

That pretty much destroys any respect or confidence I ever had in her. This is a person who used to tell me that it's okay to be me. We had a number of telephone conversations about some of the posts I put up about my beliefs and she was always fine with them. She said she didn't put a like on them because she didn't agree. She fussed about a distant cousin who would turn to personal attacks in discussions about religion and said if it happened on her page she would delete it. That's why I copied this convo. I figured she might delete it. And she did. 

 

But I don't think I was the one who did the personal attacking. I think it was her but I waited until the third attack to mention it. Then she got mad and deleted the thing rather than discuss it. Well, it looks to me like she got mad. I don't feel like calling her to ask so I can only guess. 

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Xians seem to like feeling persecuted.

That because jesus said they would be blessed if they were persecuted. They think they are tallying up points with their sky daddy every time someone disagrees or argues with them. -peace

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Xians seem to like feeling persecuted.

That because jesus said they would be blessed if they were persecuted. They think they are tallying up points with their sky daddy every time someone disagrees or argues with them. -peace

 

 

I figured that might be it. It also meshes so well with the human desire for pity-parties and power. CHRISTIAN: If someone disagrees with me, my power is challenged! eek.gif ohmy.png 

 

Not so long ago--just a couple centuries if that long--Christians had the power to use civil government to punish nonbelievers of the land. The prisons and dungeons were hungry for atheists. Just before that the torture chambers devoured them. How this loss of power must rankle!

 

But it's the *Christians* who are being persecuted. Oh yes, I keep forgetting, evidence to the contrary holds no persuading power for this brand of humanity. Sorry about that. It's just a (very annoying) fact of life, the way things are. Let's see if I can remember.PageofCupsNono.gif 

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That persecution narrative is hard to contend with. It's more important than the crucifixion, the death, burial and resurrection of their lord. And yet, in violation of Peter's epistle, they don't take it patiently, they lash back.

Of course in this case, you weren't persecuting. But they can't say one of two things: "I don't know," or "Oh, I haven't really thought of that before." Of course they can't say they were wrong. This comes from the idea of whoever is not for us is against us. It bolsters their "No compromise" stance.

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I think it's insecurity.  I was frustrated when I couldn't give a good argument, and that's what drove me to look harder for good answers...

and now I'm here Ta-Da! WendyDoh.gifhuh.png

 

Some of them had better run away from the discussion or they'll end up here too if they're not careful.

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That persecution narrative is hard to contend with. It's more important than the crucifixion, the death, burial and resurrection of their lord. And yet, in violation of Peter's epistle, they don't take it patiently, they lash back.

Of course in this case, you weren't persecuting. But they can't say one of two things: "I don't know," or "Oh, I haven't really thought of that before." Of course they can't say they were wrong. This comes from the idea of whoever is not for us is against us. It bolsters their "No compromise" stance.

 

 

I think it's insecurity.  I was frustrated when I couldn't give a good argument, and that's what drove me to look harder for good answers...

and now I'm here Ta-Da! WendyDoh.gifhuh.png

 

Some of them had better run away from the discussion or they'll end up here too if they're not careful.

 

Thank you, Leo and Jeff, for saying all that.

 

This is so amazing. This specific cousin seems to be so knowledgeable and intelligent about all kinds of things. Yet she turns tail when I ask for a discussion on something that isn't even a faith principle. I mean, she was implying with her OP that atheists forbid prayer in general, which is nonsense. However, it's a present-day issue and not a biblical injunction that I'm trying to discuss so it's not like the long ago and far away that nobody can prove ever existed.

 

It's like she's so insecure and frightened and polarized that she daren't even try discussion.

 

Did she post that thing just for tally-points from her fellow-Christians? Did she think she could trip me up? And when it didn't work she got scared?

 

I just find that amazing, incredible.

 

By the way, thanks to all of you for responding. This is helping me work through my deep disappointment and grief at being betrayed by yet another family member.

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I got a surprise this morning. With FreeThinkerNZ's permission, I posted her Post 6 on my Facebook timeline thinking it might make Christians think twice about posting bullshit at atheists or about just disappearing. I did not expect any response because they never respond to any atheist stuff I post on my page, only if I respond to their Christian craziness like the one in the OP of this thread. 

 

Was I ever wrong. My two cousins both posted. I'll call them Alice and Edna. Alice is the one in the OP of this thread.

 

Edna:  I would sooner be wrong in your eyes and have eternal life with God than be right in your eyes and burn in hell (Alice liked this)

 

Edna: and the reason we don't continue the discussion is Jesus doesn't want us to argue with you we are to leave people like you to Himself and he will see you through (Alice liked this)

 

Alice: Proverbs 20:3 says: "It is an honor for a man to cease from strife and keep aloof from it, but every fool will quarrel."

 

Me: Edna and Alice, you sound angry, frightened, and insecure. If you don't want to talk to me about this post that I found on ExChristian, nobody is forcing you. This is not about "being right in [my] eyes." It is about having a calm rational discussion about the issues. Alice, as for the conversation you deleted on your page, for all intents and purposes you were picking a fight with atheists and rejected all attempts at calm rational discussion so that I conclude Prov. 20:3 also applies to you. In addition, the personal nature of the posts the two of you made in this thread reek of a “foolish quarrel.” I am happy to be shown where I am wrong but I need solid evidence; quotes from an ancient text, obviously, are not evidence of the existence of either God or hell. They are evidence only of the existence of the ancient text and of the beliefs of the people who wrote it. I will give you opportunity to continue this discussion calmly and rationally. If no further discussion is forthcoming, or if it is unacceptable, I may decide to delete your posts because they are personal attacks and personal attacks are unacceptable.

 

Edna: I will Pray for you calmly and pray that Jesus Christ and all the Angels other than satan will give you the answers, I don't your need negativity

 

Me: No, Edna, I will not accept baseless accusations of negativity. That is personal. Treating others like we want to be treated is positive. I want discussion, so I am giving you the opportunity to defend your claims with discussion. If you cannot do that, either say so or stop making them. That is rational. I have turned off notifications for your and Alice's postings so I won't be tempted to post on your pages every time you attack atheists.

 

EdnaI have never personally attacked you as you are me but as you say I guess you want it your way or the high way well I will take the High road and not argue with you God Bless you and have a good day, Love you as a person but I will give you over to God I will no longer be a friend on FB

 

************************* 

Does that ever sort false friends from true friends! She posted that last comment as I was writing this post. I am already unfriended. I don't see any purpose in leaving such a post on my page so I deleted it. She says I attacked her. rolleyes.gif 

 

If she means I disagreed with her over religion (her god), she's absolutely right but disagreement has never been personal attack in and of itself. 

 

"God bless yous" and "I will pray for yous" are the height of disrespect when knowingly said to an atheist. Both she and Alice have proven their total lack of respect for me as a person, despite claims to the contrary. Because of an intense positive history with Alice over the past year I have not yet unfriended her. I don't know where things will go from here. Life has not been kind to her and the possibility exists that she will rethink some things in light of this new development. Then again, that's probably just me being overly optimistic, like usual when it comes to relationships, but one can always hope...

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Xians seem to like feeling persecuted.

That because jesus said they would be blessed if they were persecuted. They think they are tallying up points with their sky daddy every time someone disagrees or argues with them. -peace

 

 

 

But it's the *Christians* who are being persecuted.

 

Yeah, a fine defense mechanism they have built for themselves. They persecute non believers but when we show them evidence contrary to their belief then they are the ones who are being persecuted, they are the ones that should be felt sorry for. -non-sense

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Xians seem to like feeling persecuted.

That because jesus said they would be blessed if they were persecuted. They think they are tallying up points with their sky daddy every time someone disagrees or argues with them. -peace

 

 

 

But it's the *Christians* who are being persecuted.

 

Yeah, a fine defense mechanism they have built for themselves. They persecute non believers but when we show them evidence contrary to their belief then they are the ones who are being persecuted, they are the ones that should be felt sorry for. -non-sense

 

 

Is that how Edna can accuse me of being negative and attacking her??? See my Post 13 today.

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Please clarify your question. I only quoted one sentence and replied to that one sentence by itself, not the other things you listed.

As i read it, she doesn't give any evidence to "why" she believes what she believes. It's just more magical thinking on her part that jesus will take care of you etc. There is no evidence that jesus existed so i am not sure how you can get into a discussion with someone who is not living in reality. Your not attacking her, your simply bringing in the truth that "real" evidence has to be shown,and that you can't prove the bible by quoting from the bible. This is not uncommon, when someone's beliefs are challenged they resort to either name calling or accusations that they are being attacked unfairly. I don't see that you did anything wrong. I hope it works out for you though. Frankly, i thought you handled it the right way. 

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Please clarify your question. I only quoted one sentence and replied to that one sentence by itself, not the other things you listed.

As i read it, she doesn't give any evidence to "why" she believes what she believes. It's just more magical thinking on her part that jesus will take care of you etc. There is no evidence that jesus existed so i am not sure how you can get into a discussion with someone who is not living in reality. Your not attacking her, your simply bringing in the truth that "real" evidence has to be shown,and that you can't prove the bible by quoting from the bible. This is not uncommon, when someone's beliefs are challenged they resort to either name calling or accusations that they are being attacked unfairly. I don't see that you did anything wrong. I hope it works out for you though. Frankly, i thought you handled it the right way. 

 

A lot of stuff happened this morning, which I posted in Post 13 of this thread. In the end, she accused me of being negative and of attacking her. She denied that she attacked me and said that she would unfriend me. That's part of what I put in my Post 13. Now I discover that she not only unfriended me, she also blocked me so I can't even see her FB page. None of this makes any sense to me because it's the opposite of what really happened. I'm finding it really difficult to understand her behaviour. But your last answer seems to explain it when you say: when someone's beliefs are challenged they resort to either name calling or accusations that they are being attacked unfairly.

 

Thanks for trying to help. It's so hard to see objectively in cases like this, especially if it's family members. 

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Hi. Sorry i couldn't be more help to you. I do sympathise with you, maybe just give it time and things will work out. I hope you have a better day. -peace

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Xians seem to like feeling persecuted.

 

Poor Xians, have the hard life here, always getting persecuted.... ,my bleeding hearts weeps for them.

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Hi. Sorry i couldn't be more help to you. I do sympathise with you, maybe just give it time and things will work out. I hope you have a better day. -peace

 

You were a great help, CeilingCat. Sorry I wasn't more clear. Thanks for sharing your insights.

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Xians seem to like feeling persecuted.

 

Poor Xians, have the hard life here, always getting persecuted.... ,my bleeding hearts weeps for them.

 

 

Lol!!!GONZ9729CustomImage1541245.gif 

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The reality is that a lot of religious people are not interested in truth, whatever they may say to the contrary.

 

Their religion gives them a safe place to live with like-minded friends, where they can live out their existence in a sandbox, isolated from a lot of the difficult thoughts that real seekers of truth have to deal with.

 

It has its advantages - it's not for me, but I can see why some people like it.

 

Think of it as a lifestyle choice.

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