bleedblue22 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I am finding it difficult to dismiss near death experiences as hallucinations due to accounts of veridical Out of Body perception during them. I read an article on infidels.org attempting to debunk certain cases of apparently unexplained instances of people being able to verify what things looked and sounded like while they were being resuscitated in other rooms or areas that they had no access too. In one case, a women identified a shoe sitting on a windowsill during her NDE that would not have been visible to her through normal perception. Also, some of these experiences seem to bring back correct information which was previously unknown to the individual. The attempted debunks on these cases are a little weak and strain credulity to demonstrate how these people came to acquire this unknown information. Also, the scientific theories put forth to explain these experience only carry partial explanations and the totality of the experience have not been replicated in laboratory conditions. I understand since these reports are based on purely anecdotal evidence they do not carry strong evidentiary weight. They are prone to all sorts of error, but some of the cases are hard to ignore. I think I have to consider the possibility that these might not be hallucinations or merely the product of the dying brain. I am undecided whether having an afterlife would be good or not. I would hate the Christian or Islamic version of the afterlife as they are so black and white and make everything seem so meaningless in the end, but an afterlife in some other dimension as a disembodied consciousness might be cool. While the people who research near death experiences say that people see all sorts of religious figures (Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad), I am having trouble finding reports of people online who saw any other religious figure than Jesus. It would seem that NDEs point to an afterlife that is completely different from the afterlife of any religion, but the frequent occurrences of people seeing Jesus while I can't find reports of people seeing Buddha or confirming any other religion makes me depressed and think that I might need to accept Christianity. Does anyone know of a really good source debunking some of these NDE cases? Anyone had an NDE? Also, are there any NDEs that contradict the Christian interpretation of these experiences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Did you know fighter pilots occasionally experience NDEs either from training with a centerfuge or making very tight turns in their jets? A NDE has nothing to do with death. It's what the human brain does (sometimes) when it is under extreme stress. By the way it is science, not spiritual forces, that are behind the recent rise in NDEs. We have developed technology that can restore people from conditions that would have killed them until just recently. It turns out brain death is the final end. If somebody hasn't experienced brain death then often EMTs and doctors can get the heart started again. This sometimes causes a vivid dream. Your mind can create anything it wants in a dream. In fact your mind creates all of your perception both when awake and asleep. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedblue22 Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 From what I have heard, these pilots may experience tunnel vision and feelings of euphoria, but not the full range of experience as someone during an NDE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 http://www.near-death.com/experiences/triggers06.html 1. Tunnel vision / Bright light 2. Floating 3. Automatic movement 4. Autoscopy 5. Out-of-body experience 6. Not wanting to be disturbed 7. Paralysis 8. Vivid dreamlets / Beautiful places a. Euphoria b. Dissociation 9. Pleasurable 10. Psychologic state alteration 11. Friends / Family inclusion 12. Prior memories / Thoughts inclusion 13. Very memorable (when remembered) 14. Confabulation 15. Strong urge to understand If you were in a car accident and experienced 1, 2, 4/5, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14 or 15 then you just went to heaven and heaven is for reals. If you were in a centrifuge and experienced the same thing then it was G-LOC. I find the evidence quite convincing but your millage may vary. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedblue22 Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 Interesting stuff! Thanks for the links. The hard thing for me is the Out of Body perception of things that shouldn't be possible to see or hear. Is there any good debunking of the Pam Reynolds case or the shoe on the window sill cases? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Interesting stuff! Thanks for the links. The hard thing for me is the Out of Body perception of things that shouldn't be possible to see or hear. Is there any good debunking of the Pam Reynolds case or the shoe on the window sill cases? Out of body experiences are not real. It's all in the imagination. They can be recreated in the lab. It's simply a matter of fooling the subject's spacial orientation. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070823141057.htm Google "God Helmet" for more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedblue22 Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 I am a little confused with the article you linked to. It seems like they used glasses with screens on them to allow them see video feed happening behind them and make them feel like they were actually behind their body. How does that compare to people who aren't watching a video feed and are instead undergoing a spontaneous OBE? Of course if you show someone the vision from a vantage point outside their body it might seem that they aren't really in their body and just observing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 why would you have problems with seeing other religious figures? why would you believe people seeing jesus? would he be a white jesus or a middle east jesus or just someone who claimed to be jesus? how would you define NEAR DEATH? 5 min brain dead, 10 min brain dead or nearly dead but not dead? i was officially given 10% chance making through my heart attack episode, and can i be considered near death? so, as far as near NDE is concerned, i am skeptical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I am a little confused with the article you linked to. It seems like they used glasses with screens on them to allow them see video feed happening behind them and make them feel like they were actually behind their body. How does that compare to people who aren't watching a video feed and are instead undergoing a spontaneous OBE? Of course if you show someone the vision from a vantage point outside their body it might seem that they aren't really in their body and just observing it. That they figured out how to do it in the lab doesn't mean this is the only way to fool somebody's spacial orientation. The point to take away from this is if that spacial orientation is disrupted just right they will feel like they are outside their body while watching their body. I remember an account of a solder in Iraq who had a grenade go off near him and he had an OBE. It doesn't mean his "spirit" actually left his body. It just means his spacial orientation was completely thrown so for a moment he imagined being outside his body looking down at his body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Your brain can play more tricks on you than you know. As for NDEs, they are more or less tied to what you believe, people that believe different things see different things. Also, I will add that spiritual experiences can be induced easily through drugs, and possibly through disciplined meditation. Also, if you go to Google and punch in The God Helmet, it should bring up an experiment where they were able to induce "mystical" sensations in the wearer. Here is a quick link to search results actually: https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=the+god+helmet&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted December 17, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted December 17, 2014 http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/04/24/the-nde-delusion/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Sorry guys but I have to disagree. During my very short OBE (one of them.. I've had two - but the other one was under duress/trauma so I don't give it as much weight as the other) I did see something I did not know was there, from a vantage point I could not have seen physically. I was healthy, not under the influence of any substances and not under any stress. (I was doing my dishes at the time).. the experience only lasted about 5 minutes. I was about 3 feet behind my body and a little to the right and maybe about a foot and a half higher… I have long curly hair and I noticed that there was a piece of fluff stuck in it at the back.. too far up for me to have see in the mirror earlier when I brushed my teeth. When I was 'back' I went to the bathroom and confirmed that the piece of fluff was there. I'm not claiming anything other than that I experienced this.. don't know what it is, or means… and unfortunately was not in a controlled environment at the time, nor did I have witnesses. I would just like to say that because of these experiences I am keeping my mind open on this subject. I will also add that at the time I was practicing T.M., twice a day, for 20 minutes each and had been for about 6 months. I don't know if there is a correlation. I am most interested in the research being done into consciousness studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 If it makes you feel any better, I had a death experience that had absolutely no religious content whatsoever. It had nothing to do with afterlife, or seeing dead relatives, or heaven or hell. It just had to do with my consciousness leaving my body, hurtling through the universe, and then returning. I'm sure it was produced by brain chemistry, but boy what a ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey101 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 It's possible that there are so many Christian NDEs because that's the predominant religion of western society. Maybe we aren't connected enough to other societies to know what their NDEs are. It doesn't make sense that Buddhists would see Buddha because they don't consider him a god. And Muslims don't have an image of their god, so how would they see him in an NDE? I would think a more likely non-Christian candidate would be Hindus, since they have literally millions of gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Sorry guys but I have to disagree. During my very short OBE (one of them.. I've had two - but the other one was under duress/trauma so I don't give it as much weight as the other) I did see something I did not know was there, from a vantage point I could not have seen physically. I was healthy, not under the influence of any substances and not under any stress. (I was doing my dishes at the time).. the experience only lasted about 5 minutes. I was about 3 feet behind my body and a little to the right and maybe about a foot and a half higher… I have long curly hair and I noticed that there was a piece of fluff stuck in it at the back.. too far up for me to have see in the mirror earlier when I brushed my teeth. When I was 'back' I went to the bathroom and confirmed that the piece of fluff was there. I'm not claiming anything other than that I experienced this.. don't know what it is, or means… and unfortunately was not in a controlled environment at the time, nor did I have witnesses. I would just like to say that because of these experiences I am keeping my mind open on this subject. I will also add that at the time I was practicing T.M., twice a day, for 20 minutes each and had been for about 6 months. I don't know if there is a correlation. I am most interested in the research being done into consciousness studies. That isn't going to convince me souls are real. The subconscious mind often withholds information from our perception. I believe your statement accurately describes what you experienced but to me it sounds like another example of the human mind playing tricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedblue22 Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 There was one nde I had heard of where a guy had met the Hindu god of the dead. It seems like the ndes that are highly publicized are the Christian ones where people go to heaven and meet Jesus. I just wish there were more accounts of NDEs available to read that contradict the Christian ones so the religious implication of the NDE can be shown to be a product of the individuals culture/religion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 I don't really know what to make of NDEs. However, there is one thing I know for certain - the people who experienced NDEs were not dead, thus the name Near Death Experience. There is not and never has been a report of anyone experiencing true death and returning because true death is the end. Thus, we know that whatever is actually going on with NDEs are not reports of people who actually died. It is apparently something that happens to some, but not all, people who are near death. We have no way of knowing what happens to a person who actually dies because once true death occurs, they do not come back to tell us about the experience. Therefore, whatever a NDE actually is, it does not tell us anything about what happens to a person who actually dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedblue22 Posted December 18, 2014 Author Share Posted December 18, 2014 Looking through the accounts of NDEs on nderf.org, many of them seem very contradictory. Some people see Jesus and set out to evangelize while others come to the realization that all religion has it wrong about the afterlife and God. Some claim to have gone to hell for not accepting Jesus while others claim that God told them there is no hell or judgment. Probably a sign that these are hallucinations. To reconcile them and maintain that they are all valid, people have to resort to new agey and post modernism interpretations where "truth" is different to each person and that is why they are shown contradictory things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 I am finding it difficult to dismiss near death experiences as hallucinations due to accounts of veridical Out of Body perception during them. I read an article on infidels.org attempting to debunk certain cases of apparently unexplained instances of people being able to verify what things looked and sounded like while they were being resuscitated in other rooms or areas that they had no access too. In one case, a women identified a shoe sitting on a windowsill during her NDE that would not have been visible to her through normal perception. Also, some of these experiences seem to bring back correct information which was previously unknown to the individual. The attempted debunks on these cases are a little weak and strain credulity to demonstrate how these people came to acquire this unknown information. Also, the scientific theories put forth to explain these experience only carry partial explanations and the totality of the experience have not been replicated in laboratory conditions. I understand since these reports are based on purely anecdotal evidence they do not carry strong evidentiary weight. They are prone to all sorts of error, but some of the cases are hard to ignore. I think I have to consider the possibility that these might not be hallucinations or merely the product of the dying brain. I am undecided whether having an afterlife would be good or not. I would hate the Christian or Islamic version of the afterlife as they are so black and white and make everything seem so meaningless in the end, but an afterlife in some other dimension as a disembodied consciousness might be cool. While the people who research near death experiences say that people see all sorts of religious figures (Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad), I am having trouble finding reports of people online who saw any other religious figure than Jesus. It would seem that NDEs point to an afterlife that is completely different from the afterlife of any religion, but the frequent occurrences of people seeing Jesus while I can't find reports of people seeing Buddha or confirming any other religion makes me depressed and think that I might need to accept Christianity. Does anyone know of a really good source debunking some of these NDE cases? Anyone had an NDE? Also, are there any NDEs that contradict the Christian interpretation of these experiences? My hallucinations are always trying to debunk my other hallucinations. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 In fact your mind creates all of your perception both when awake and asleep. Everything is a dream. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Sorry guys but I have to disagree. During my very short OBE (one of them.. I've had two - but the other one was under duress/trauma so I don't give it as much weight as the other) I did see something I did not know was there, from a vantage point I could not have seen physically. I was healthy, not under the influence of any substances and not under any stress. (I was doing my dishes at the time).. the experience only lasted about 5 minutes. I was about 3 feet behind my body and a little to the right and maybe about a foot and a half higher… I have long curly hair and I noticed that there was a piece of fluff stuck in it at the back.. too far up for me to have see in the mirror earlier when I brushed my teeth. When I was 'back' I went to the bathroom and confirmed that the piece of fluff was there. I'm not claiming anything other than that I experienced this.. don't know what it is, or means… and unfortunately was not in a controlled environment at the time, nor did I have witnesses. I would just like to say that because of these experiences I am keeping my mind open on this subject. I will also add that at the time I was practicing T.M., twice a day, for 20 minutes each and had been for about 6 months. I don't know if there is a correlation. I am most interested in the research being done into consciousness studies. That isn't going to convince me souls are real. The subconscious mind often withholds information from our perception. I believe your statement accurately describes what you experienced but to me it sounds like another example of the human mind playing tricks. If the mind plays tricks then how can it be trusted to make accurate scientific observations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 not sure if some of the OBE/NDE be cases of Déjà vu, (Listeni/ˌdeɪʒɑː ˈvuː/) from French, literally "already seen", is the phenomenon of having the strong sensation that an event or experience currently being experienced has been experienced in the past, whether it has actually happened or not. The psychologist Edward B. Titchener in his book A Textbook of Psychology (1928), explained déjà vu as caused by a person having a brief glimpse of an object or situation, before the brain has completed "constructing" a full conscious perception of the experience. Such a "partial perception" then results in a false sense of familiarity.[1] Scientific approaches reject the explanation of déjà vu as "precognition" or "prophecy", but rather explain it as an anomaly of memory, which creates a distinct impression that an experience is "being recalled".[2][3] This explanation is supported by the fact that the sense of "recollection" at the time is strong in most cases, but that the circumstances of the "previous" experience (when, where, and how the earlier experience occurred) are uncertain or believed to be impossible. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Déjà_vu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted December 18, 2014 Moderator Share Posted December 18, 2014 Sorry guys but I have to disagree. During my very short OBE (one of them.. I've had two - but the other one was under duress/trauma so I don't give it as much weight as the other) I did see something I did not know was there, from a vantage point I could not have seen physically. I was healthy, not under the influence of any substances and not under any stress. (I was doing my dishes at the time).. the experience only lasted about 5 minutes. I was about 3 feet behind my body and a little to the right and maybe about a foot and a half higher… I have long curly hair and I noticed that there was a piece of fluff stuck in it at the back.. too far up for me to have see in the mirror earlier when I brushed my teeth. When I was 'back' I went to the bathroom and confirmed that the piece of fluff was there. I'm not claiming anything other than that I experienced this.. don't know what it is, or means… and unfortunately was not in a controlled environment at the time, nor did I have witnesses. I would just like to say that because of these experiences I am keeping my mind open on this subject. I will also add that at the time I was practicing T.M., twice a day, for 20 minutes each and had been for about 6 months. I don't know if there is a correlation. I am most interested in the research being done into consciousness studies. Very interesting R. I also do not know what to make of these experiences Ravenstar. I had one out of body experience that I remember so clearly. It only lasted for 2 minutes but it was so gawd-darn real, right to this day, I can still ''see'' and feel it. I got out of my body and 'walked along side it' for about about 2 minutes. I was walking to a mall to go grocery shopping when it happened. I could watch myself as I walked. I don't recall being stressed or anything else that day. It was weird and I'll never forget it. I can't explain what happened to me that day?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 I can't explain it either, but yes.. it was damn real. In my youth I did experiment with some hallucinogenic drugs.. not tons - but enough to know this was nothing like those experiences. Still.. I make no claims, it is to me, an unexplained mystery. It was pretty cool though.. and it didn't frighten me at all… if anything the fact I wasn't in the least bothered by it is very interesting. It was a very calm, even happy, experience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted December 19, 2014 Share Posted December 19, 2014 Hallucinations can be caused by a neurosurgeon stimulating a certain part of the brain. They can be caused by lack of sleep or a fever. And by mental illness. And drugs. By religious emotions run out of control. Brain damage or tumor. Who knows what else? But they are most surely not caused by the bible god or any other god. Rip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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