mikey101 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Has anyone had experience going through 12 step programs without the use of a god/creator/divinity as your higher power? I've heard of Buddhists (Atheists) using karma as their higher power. To me recovery is about learning to love yourself, not about religions. FYI, this is not a thread to rag on 12 step groups, but about higher powers in recovery other than the traditional 'god'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I had a friend that was part of a group called SOS, for Save OurSelves, which was a secular 12-step program. They rejected the idea that one is powerless over one's addiction, which is why a higher power is required. They did the rest of the steps, just omitting the higher power references. I'm sure there are other secular recovery groups if you want to get away from the whole higher power thing. Otherwise, as you say, you could conceptualize higher power however you want: karma, prana, the Force, anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey101 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 The whole point of the word addiction is that you can't control it, otherwise it wouldn't be called addiction. Mild addictions, sure you can control them, but someone who's brain chemistry has changed dramatically from years of substance abuse has lost the ability to control it. Unfortunately for those, realizing powerless can be a matter of life and death. That's why I'm sticking to the higher power idea. Anyone experienced with using a higher power other than god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey101 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 There are addictions other than typical "substances" (alcohol and other drugs), such as gambling, sex addiction, and even religious experiences/practice can be viewed as addictive behavior. The addicted person's self image, or sense of self, is the primary factor. A person's perception of self and reality feeds back into the brain to alter the soft-wiring aspects of the brain. Thus, there is a mind-brain-mind loop that's formed. To quote Orbit: I fully concur with this. If a person feels inadequate or somehow unworthy, one will look outside oneself, to a deity or higher power. The person will thus need to remain dependent upon that source, to get free and remain free. It's like exchanging one addiction for another, without any real recovery or autonomy. Personally, I believe that only a Humanistic-based recovery philosophy will provide real healing, freedom, self-empowerment, and success. The only "higher power" that could provide this is a Humanistic view of one's own Humanity. (However, not all atheistic ideologies hold a high view of Humanity.) If someone wants to use the "higher power" concept, I would encourage them to consider a Humanistic higher view of Humanity and the (amazing, evolving) Human Mind as the Higher Power. (But then, maybe not every "homo sapiens" has an amazing evolving mind...) Recovery with a higher power is not about feeling inadequate and unworthy, and needing a crutch. It's about realizing that you are powerless over your addiction. If you talk to doctors who have had patients with advanced alcoholism, they will tell you all about it, it's not just something people make up because they have a low self esteem lol. This stigma that addicts just have 'low willpower' was dispelled by the medical community many, many years ago, It's an actual medical condition in the brain, that is, if the addiction has reached that level. Most people it doesn't, so they don't really understand, they just go by popular opinion instead of actual medical evidence. So, has anyone had experience using a higher power other than god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey101 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 Anything can be higher power in 12 step groups, as long as it's not yourself. The reason is, as recovering addicts know all too well, their whole lives have been spent trying to control it. They typically lose everything.. home, job, family, business, savings, etc trying to beat the addiction on their own. When they finally give up and realize they can't do it and need something else to help them, is when things start to change. The higher power is often the group or program they're in when they start out. It takes many years of pain to get to the point where they can let go control, but most never get there. The denial is strong, and it doesn't help that society still has a 1920s understanding of it. If you're an addict fighting in a war, it's not really the ideal environment for recovery lol. When I talk about addiction, I'm not talking about bad habits, or even using drugs and alcohol. I'm talking about a brain disorder that kills people regularly and baffles doctors to this day. It's basically just like a deadly cancer. You can get it to go into remission, but even just a small lapse in your recovery work, even after you've been sober for 50 years, can bring it right back and bam your dead (literally). I've seen it and It sucks big time. There was a group for alcoholics that tried moderating drinking. "We'll teach you how to just have a couple of drinks then quit." The founder was killed in a drunk driving accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I think it's a fair statement if i am reading this correct. I have always meditated and what not. But to just believe there is nothing out there and this is it, i don't know. Although I am completely over the whole deconversion now, i still lean towards my own spirituality to help me. I don't think I could ever give up not believing in anything at all. I hope this answers your question, if i misread it then i humbly apologise. -scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey101 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 I think it's a fair statement if i am reading this correct. I have always meditated and what not. But to just believe there is nothing out there and this is it, i don't know. Although I am completely over the whole deconversion now, i still lean towards my own spirituality to help me. I don't think I could ever give up not believing in anything at all. I hope this answers your question, if i misread it then i humbly apologise. -scott No problem Scott. This is a section for spirituality among ex-Christians, so I figured I could talk about higher powers here. Yes when I first decoverted I wanted nothing to do with spirituality/religion, but now I realize it's something I'm attracted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 What form(s) of spirituality are you attracted to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Mikey, I'll say right off that I am not a shrink nor do I know very much about the field. However, there's a group called "Sober and Secular" that uses some of the 12 step recovery system. However, 12 step, while it's popular and an enormous industry, is not your only option. People now use some cognitive behavioral therapy options like anxiety sufferers do. The Wife went through an anxiety program this past spring using that method and it's different from your traditional therapies talking about the past and such. She literally did things that would otherwise make Her have anxiety and work with that to reduce it. I met a guy recently who was going through one of these secular cognitive behavioral programs for addictions, and we were drinking beer. You know usually you've got to put away the booze or the bud when someone from AA comes over, out of respect for their recovery. He claimed that his ability to be around the rest of us while we were having beers was part of his recovery. And that some people in this program are later able to drink, provided there's no physical dependency. Anyway, the way he was talking about the program, because we asked, was very different from what you usually see of people talking up their programs, if you know what I mean. He wasn't talking programs and past and stuff like lots of the 12-steppers do when you get 'em started. It wasn't 12-step, it was some kind of cognitive behavioral stuff. The unorthodox claim they're making is on completion they can retrain their brains to become non-addicts. Likely to upset some powerful people in high places, but sounded to me like a much more freeing situation than those poor folks having to do AA all the time and keep redoing the 12 steps over and over. Anyway just some thoughts from a guy on the outside looking in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Cognitive only works temporarily. Repeated exposures for like anxiety people only work if you keep at it. If you stop for a while, the problem comes back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey101 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 What form(s) of spirituality are you attracted to? Earth-based indigenous religions, Buddhism, Polynesian religions and maybe some aspects of Hinduism. Not interested in the Western concept of a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey101 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 The unorthodox claim they're making is on completion they can retrain their brains to become non-addicts. Likely to upset some powerful people in high places, but sounded to me like a much more freeing situation than those poor folks having to do AA all the time and keep redoing the 12 steps over and over. Anyway just some thoughts from a guy on the outside looking in. If what your friend says is true and cbt can cure alcoholism, that's one of the greatest miracles of our time. But keep in mind, people have made that claim over and over throughout the years, and so far all have turned out to be untrue. Not to say it's not beneficial, which I know it is, but if it was a cure for addiction it would be very amazing. Also, a common misconception is that powerlessness means you're weak and inferior. Parents tell their kids you're dumb, you're worthless, you don't matter etc. That's helplessness. Powerlessness is actually liberating and empowering, believe it or not. Then again, what the fuck do I know, I'm just starting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 AA has an abysmal success rate. Just saying'. An addict's biggest challenge is to change their social circle so that they no longer know users. The rest is detox and therapy. I've seen years and years of this, being a music industry veteran, and that's what works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey101 Posted January 8, 2015 Author Share Posted January 8, 2015 AA has an abysmal success rate. Just saying'. An addict's biggest challenge is to change their social circle so that they no longer know users. The rest is detox and therapy. I've seen years and years of this, being a music industry veteran, and that's what works. Everything has an abysmal success rate. Didn't you know that? Ever seen an alcoholic die by puking up blood and guts in front of you? Ever been put in the hospital with a .35 bac? Ever outrun the cops doing 175mph on tequila? Ever had a shotgun blast in a bad drug deal? You pansies lol. Any doctor is going to suggest AA for an alcoholic among other things. But of course, no one here cares about doctors lol.. just bigotry since that's where you came from. Old habits are hard to break I suppose.. Was supposed to be a thread about higher powers, should have known that wouldn't be possible lol. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 AA has an abysmal success rate. Just saying'. An addict's biggest challenge is to change their social circle so that they no longer know users. The rest is detox and therapy. I've seen years and years of this, being a music industry veteran, and that's what works. Everything has an abysmal success rate. Didn't you know that? Ever seen an alcoholic die by puking up blood and guts in front of you? Ever been put in the hospital with a .35 bac? Ever outrun the cops doing 175mph on tequila? Ever had a shotgun blast in a bad drug deal? You pansies lol. Any doctor is going to suggest AA for an alcoholic among other things. But of course, no one here cares about doctors lol.. just bigotry since that's where you came from. Old habits are hard to break I suppose.. Was supposed to be a thread about higher powers, should have known that wouldn't be possible lol. Oh well. You don't know a goddamn thing about what I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 If you want a higher power setting get into electronics and / or learn how to work with a generator lol. You just asked us, man, we just gave back the answers we had. I said I had not been there just known people. Orbit has seen a lot, and a considerable amount more up close than I have. Nobody here is anti-doctor per se, just challenging orthodoxy and thinking about things, which can't be anything but a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 I not entirely certain what is going on here, but: Never heard of a 12 steps programme until reading this thread. Fully agree that a higher power can be conceptualized in any way the individual sees fit. And that is the point. If the individual feels the need for such a concept (some will,some won't) then it is up to that individual to choose the concept. If you want a sort of midway between something that transcends the "ordinary self" but has no reference to "god" as normally understood, what about a concept of the "higher-self"? That can be as metaphysical or philosophical as you want it to be - ultimately, an idealized concept of a powerful, directing force with direct connection to the self. I tend to be with the chaos magicians in this type of thought process - stuff the theory; just go with what works for you and make sure you believe it for as long as it needs to be a reality for you... However, I may be completely misunderstanding this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 13, 2015 Share Posted January 13, 2015 What works for some obviously won't work for others. Just find your own truth. Assuming there is no universal truth. Whether there is or isn't universal truth-that is the question. -peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orbit Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I think part of the problem is the title of the thread is "Recovery Without God", so people are suggesting recovery without a higher power. What mikey wanted was a suggestion of a high power to use. I think that higher power is within ourselves, and can be connected with in meditation. But that flies in the face of conventional AA/NA thinking that you need a power other than yourself. Their thinking almost traps you in a God trap, or a God-substitute trap. To move forward I think the addict has to question the wisdom of the thinking itself. Gods are just projections of ourselves and our collective psychologies anyway. Why not just go to the source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Believe nothing,No matter where you read it,Or who has said it,Not even if I have said it,Unless it agrees with your own reasonAnd your own common sense. -Buddha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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