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Goodbye Jesus

And So We Wait...


bornagainathiest

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You know, in a way, Steak Sauce has a point. We could never know for sure if there was a "God" or not with the tools we have now, if this God was outside the realm of the natural world.

 

Where he misses the point is that the Bible claims to be the "Word of God" that was put into the natural realm by this God, and that this book's Jesus character was God and dwelt among us in our world.  Those are things we can and have examined and found them to be bullshit. We didn't have to look for the supernatural at all because Biblegod supposedly came into the natural world, so the entire argument that God is beyond what we can see and test for is moot.  

 

There is a huge difference between a philosophical argument for a deity, and a deity that claims to be right here right now in real world ways, yet isn't.

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Baa. I will re read if I need to because I was Gone for 3weeks but I will address briefly

 

I do not mean for the sole purpose of knowing the future itself is the reason why God is more moral than Nazis

 

I'm saying because of the result if the future. God had a reason for doing what he did the Nazis did not.

 

 

If you knew by letting a robber leave the grocery store he would kill 1000 people in a mall. You would not have been so nice to let him leave.

 

God knew ahead of time of the horrible things that Ameikltes would have done to other people

 

Nazis killing people who did nothing *wrong* *and* on top of that who they didn't know if those people would have done anything horrible like killing more people.

 

Kill to stop more killing is what police do.

 

Kill just because....is selfish

 

That's difference between Nazis and God

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God knew ahead of time how many babies he would drown in the flood.

 

God knew ahead of time the number of innocent people the descendants of Abraham would murder and the horrible things they would do to other people.

 

God knew ahead of time the billions of people that would trapped in a devil's Hell if he made one.

 

God knew ahead of time...so it's OK.

 

Edit for typo.

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You know, in a way, Steak Sauce has a point. We could never know for sure if there was a "God" or not with the tools we have now, if this God was outside the realm of the natural world.

 

Where he misses the point is that the Bible claims to be the "Word of God" that was put into the natural realm by this God, and that this book's Jesus character was God and dwelt among us in our world. Those are things we can and have examined and found them to be bullshit. We didn't have to look for the supernatural at all because Biblegod supposedly came into the natural world, so the entire argument that God is beyond what we can see and test for is moot.

 

There is a huge difference between a philosophical argument for a deity, and a deity that claims to be right here right now in real world ways, yet isn't.

You make a good point although I never said he wasn't in this real world I just said unless *Science* changes its definition it will never be able to detect it.

 

This doesn't mean he doesn't interact with us

 

It just means sciences limited capabilities can't find out unless it definition is changed.

 

You Dont use a metal detector to find cotton candy

 

Science detects natural only its a cstege error using the wrong method

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A1 your words look more drunk with every post.

 

 

-Science can't stop God from showing up.  Definitions don't control God.

 

-It is not possible to be morally accountable to the God of the Bible.  God is a monster.

 

-God allows murderers and rapists to live and commit their crimes every day so don't pull that bullshit with us.  Painting the Amalikites as evil does not justify genocide.  The propaganda is a lie anyway. 

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Athiest say.....

If God is not real you can't hate him you can't hate what Dont exist

 

So why can't this same line of logic apply to....

 

If God is not real how could he be immoral

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Athiest say.....

If God is not real you can't hate him you can't hate what Dont exist

 

So why can't this same line of logic apply to....

 

If God is not real how could he be immoral

 

 

Look at your word salad on the previous page.  You wanted us to assume God is proven true.

 

Since God is not real it is the human beings who use the idea (of God) in order to take advantage, to do evil or to control others who are the bad guys.

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Athiest say.....

If God is not real you can't hate him you can't hate what Dont exist

 

So why can't this same line of logic apply to....

 

If God is not real how could he be immoral

 

Many atheists don't want to be accused of hating god just because they don't believe in him. But they will diss him anyway. It's because god is a character in a book.

 

An atheist can hate Bible God, who is not real, in the same way they can hate a character in a book. One can also claim a character in a book is immoral. Go onto fan forums of popular books and tv series and you can find people expressing their hate of certain fictional characters. Nobody is claiming the characters are real. Nobody assumes the person dissing the character thinks that character is real.

 

If I post a bunch of reasons I dislike Voldemort on a Harry Potter forum, that doesn't mean I think he is real. Reading fictional stories can incite strong emotions in the reader even if you know they aren't accounts of actual events. And the Bible has quite a bit of narratives that can cause the reader to have strong disapproval regarding the character of Bible God.

 

Any hatred of god expressed by an atheist is aimed at "god, the character in the Bible," not at some actual sentient entity of god who does not exist in reality.

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Guest Furball

God knew ahead of time how many babies he would drown in the flood.

 

God new ahead of time the number of innocent people the descendants of Abraham would murder and the horrible things they would do to other people.

 

God knew ahead of time the billions of people that would trapped in a devil's Hell if he made one.

 

God knew ahead of time...so it's OK.

Nicely done - up voted

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You know, in a way, Steak Sauce has a point. We could never know for sure if there was a "God" or not with the tools we have now, if this God was outside the realm of the natural world.

 

Where he misses the point is that the Bible claims to be the "Word of God" that was put into the natural realm by this God, and that this book's Jesus character was God and dwelt among us in our world. Those are things we can and have examined and found them to be bullshit. We didn't have to look for the supernatural at all because Biblegod supposedly came into the natural world, so the entire argument that God is beyond what we can see and test for is moot.

 

There is a huge difference between a philosophical argument for a deity, and a deity that claims to be right here right now in real world ways, yet isn't.

You make a good point although I never said he wasn't in this real world I just said unless *Science* changes its definition it will never be able to detect it.

 

This doesn't mean he doesn't interact with us

 

It just means sciences limited capabilities can't find out unless it definition is changed.

 

You Dont use a metal detector to find cotton candy

 

Science detects natural only its a cstege error using the wrong method

 

 

A1, this could go on and on, but I see it clogging up an otherwise good thread.

You answered BAA, and I hope he gets back to you soon.

 

In the mean time, if you want to discuss how humanity detects imaginary friends, or what logic applies where and  why we sometimes say God god or Biblegod, why don't you use the thread I started for you? We would both be doing a good thing if we didn't take this thread way off topic.

 

This ain't a jab at you, A1. I'm very guilty of doing the same thing myself from time to time.

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You know, in a way, Steak Sauce has a point. We could never know for sure if there was a "God" or not with the tools we have now, if this God was outside the realm of the natural world.

 

Where he misses the point is that the Bible claims to be the "Word of God" that was put into the natural realm by this God, and that this book's Jesus character was God and dwelt among us in our world. Those are things we can and have examined and found them to be bullshit. We didn't have to look for the supernatural at all because Biblegod supposedly came into the natural world, so the entire argument that God is beyond what we can see and test for is moot.

 

There is a huge difference between a philosophical argument for a deity, and a deity that claims to be right here right now in real world ways, yet isn't.

You make a good point although I never said he wasn't in this real world I just said unless *Science* changes its definition it will never be able to detect it.

 

This doesn't mean he doesn't interact with us

 

It just means sciences limited capabilities can't find out unless it definition is changed.

 

You Dont use a metal detector to find cotton candy

 

Science detects natural only its a cstege error using the wrong method

A1, this could go on and on, but I see it clogging up an otherwise good thread.

You answered BAA, and I hope he gets back to you soon.

 

In the mean time, if you want to discuss how humanity detects imaginary friends, or what logic applies where and why we sometimes say God god or Biblegod, why don't you use the thread I started for you? We would both be doing a good thing if we didn't take this thread way off topic.

 

This ain't a jab at you, A1. I'm very guilty of doing the same thing myself from time to time.

You always been honest and respectful sure I will discuss further in our thread :)

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You know, in a way, Steak Sauce has a point. We could never know for sure if there was a "God" or not with the tools we have now, if this God was outside the realm of the natural world.

 

Where he misses the point is that the Bible claims to be the "Word of God" that was put into the natural realm by this God, and that this book's Jesus character was God and dwelt among us in our world. Those are things we can and have examined and found them to be bullshit. We didn't have to look for the supernatural at all because Biblegod supposedly came into the natural world, so the entire argument that God is beyond what we can see and test for is moot.

 

There is a huge difference between a philosophical argument for a deity, and a deity that claims to be right here right now in real world ways, yet isn't.

You make a good point although I never said he wasn't in this real world I just said unless *Science* changes its definition it will never be able to detect it.

 

This doesn't mean he doesn't interact with us

 

It just means sciences limited capabilities can't find out unless it definition is changed.

 

You Dont use a metal detector to find cotton candy

 

Science detects natural only its a cstege error using the wrong method

A1, this could go on and on, but I see it clogging up an otherwise good thread.

You answered BAA, and I hope he gets back to you soon.

 

In the mean time, if you want to discuss how humanity detects imaginary friends, or what logic applies where and why we sometimes say God god or Biblegod, why don't you use the thread I started for you? We would both be doing a good thing if we didn't take this thread way off topic.

 

This ain't a jab at you, A1. I'm very guilty of doing the same thing myself from time to time.

You always been honest and respectful sure I will discuss further in our thread :)

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Prove me wrong ficcino.

 

 

Will you worship and love God and be morally accountable to him forever?

 

If you will I stand corrected

First you ask, if God's existence is proved in some really strong, indubitable way, would I refuse to submit to God anyway.  And you indicated that you knew the answer and you knew why.

 

Then I called you on that.

 

Now you drop the whole "if" part and merely ask, will I worship and love God blah blah blah.

 

As your question stands now, with the "if" part removed, leaving the shit level amount of evidence for whatever it is that you think "God" refers to, then no, of course not.  I will not reorganize my life around a myth.

 

Go fuck yourself.

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i used the if the whole time, even said it was a hypothetical scenario. AND if you missed that then at least BY logic....should tell you i wasnt referring to THIS reality with current evidence. otherwise God would have already been proven and palstered all over the news. an easy assesment. 

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 Even if Jesus is proven real even if God is proven real by millions of research and study you would logically and rationally acknowledge their actual existence of course. But unless the bible is re written. Or unwritten you will never love or worship God.....so...why spend 2000 years asking for evidence of his existence when that really isn't the issue if you dont love him and *IF* the bible was proven *True* by all humanity and scientists using evidence I will say this again. <--Period inserted there by me.

 

Jesus has not been proven real. That is just your imagination wishing it to be true. Why don't we get past that hurdle first. It is absurd to love something that doesn't really exist. Well, except for maybe hentai porn girls, but still ... :-)

 

Christianity is like the romance scams on Dr Phil. You fall in love , you start sending money, and you don't get shit for it. Then Dr. Phil points out that this lover doesn't exist, it's a total fabrication and A1 says, "But I love my Jesus! I must give him more money!!!" :-) But you at least get Dr. Phil's latest book.

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Baa. I will re read if I need to because I was Gone for 3weeks but I will address briefly

 

I do not mean for the sole purpose of knowing the future itself is the reason why God is more moral than Nazis

 

I'm saying because of the result if the future. God had a reason for doing what he did the Nazis did not.

 

 

If you knew by letting a robber leave the grocery store he would kill 1000 people in a mall. You would not have been so nice to let him leave.

 

God knew ahead of time of the horrible things that Ameikltes would have done to other people

 

Nazis killing people who did nothing *wrong* *and* on top of that who they didn't know if those people would have done anything horrible like killing more people.

 

Kill to stop more killing is what police do.

 

Kill just because....is selfish

 

That's difference between Nazis and God

 

I see, A1.

 

God had a reason for doing what he did and the Nazi did not.

 

So, if the Nazis had a good reason for doing what they did, they would be just as moral as God?

 

Is that what you're saying?

.

.

.

And God's 'good reason' was to kill to stop future killing...?

 

Then why didn't God kill Cain, to stop Cain killing Abel?

 

Why didn't God kill Doeg the Edomite?

To stop him killing 85 of God's own priests, the men and women of the town of Nob, it's children and infants, it's cattle and donkeys and sheep?  

 

None of these had done any harm to King Saul or Doeg.

 

And if you read 1 Samuel 22: 17 you'll see that none of King Saul's other officials raised a hand against the priests - because they knew this was a sinful and evil thing to do.

 

Saul and Doeg were clearly doing wrong ... why didn't God stop them?

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^ ^ ^ ^ ^

 

The above makes no sense.

I make it simple for you.

 

Even if God and Jesus was proven real and the bible was true by all humanity and all scientists

 

Would you love God and choose to be morally accountable to him submit your lifestyle to what he wants?

 

Your answer is no.

 

And your reason for that answer is simple

 

You do not know anything about me or what I would decide under what circumstances.  The above is an insult.

 

 

"[if] God and Jesus was were proven real and the bible was [accepted as] true by all humanity and all scientists," then only immoral people and people too stupid to understand what the Bible clearly states about acts committed by Bible God would worship that horrible, abusive shit.

 

Not saying that Stake Source is immoral, necessarily. He may be merely stupid, as are the majority of fundies who never grow beyond their indoctrination.

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Prove me wrong ficcino.

 

 

Will you worship and love God and be morally accountable to him forever?

 

If you will I stand corrected

Your statement that you "used if the whole time" is incorrect - either a mistake or a lie, I don't know which.  You dropped your "if" clause in #52 above, the entirety of which I quote. 

 

But I accept that you intended your "if" clause to carry into #52, so I withdraw my "FU".  What you said was not what you may have intended.

 

I find the Abrahamic God concept incoherent.  if I ever were to go back to religion, I think it would be some form of Vedanta, to which I was introduced as a teenager.  I agree with most of Bhim's criticisms of Christianity.  There is much that I still miss about the Catholic form of Christianity to which I was loyal, but its propositions amount to a tissue of absurdities.

 

The notion that we need to submit ourselves to God is very dangerously vacuous, because "God" is ill-defined.  Too easily, some group of humans take the leadership and claim to speak for God.  So submission becomes submission to them.  Not cool.  Let's have some form of group govt where people's different takes on these abstruse questions are respected.

 

If Jesus appeared to me and asked, Ficino, why do you persecute me? I would first freak out.  Then I'd question whether this was only a brain event.  It would take something outside of brain events to make me give allegiance.  Like maybe, Jesus being my friend, walking and talking with me in real life as the song says, maybe sticking some amputated limbs back on some folks, etc.  Not the shit that we actually get from Christianity.

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Baa. I will re read if I need to because I was Gone for 3weeks but I will address briefly

 

I do not mean for the sole purpose of knowing the future itself is the reason why God is more moral than Nazis

 

I'm saying because of the result if the future. God had a reason for doing what he did the Nazis did not.

 

 

If you knew by letting a robber leave the grocery store he would kill 1000 people in a mall. You would not have been so nice to let him leave.

 

God knew ahead of time of the horrible things that Ameikltes would have done to other people

 

Nazis killing people who did nothing *wrong* *and* on top of that who they didn't know if those people would have done anything horrible like killing more people.

 

Kill to stop more killing is what police do.

 

Kill just because....is selfish

 

That's difference between Nazis and God

 

I see, A1.

 

God had a reason for doing what he did and the Nazi did not.

 

So, if the Nazis had a good reason for doing what they did, they would be just as moral as God?

 

Is that what you're saying?

.

.

.

And God's 'good reason' was to kill to stop future killing...?

 

Then why didn't God kill Cain, to stop Cain killing Abel?

 

Why didn't God kill Doeg the Edomite?

To stop him killing 85 of God's own priests, the men and women of the town of Nob, it's children and infants, it's cattle and donkeys and sheep?  

 

None of these had done any harm to King Saul or Doeg.

 

And if you read 1 Samuel 22: 17 you'll see that none of King Saul's other officials raised a hand against the priests - because they knew this was a sinful and evil thing to do.

 

Saul and Doeg were clearly doing wrong ... why didn't God stop them?

 

 

we can take it even further lol

why didnt God hitlers Mom so hitler wouldnt have been born and holcoaust would never have happened?

why didnt he kill Hits Moms parents or the parents before them, that all would have prevented hitler

 

how for back do we go?....ok if God stopped all evil then nobody in the whole world shouldnt have been born since adam and eve or since the first common ancestor whichever you believe.

 

Where do we draw the line? want God to start chaning the wind in a specific moment and change the trajectory of all bullets fired to avoid any death?

 

Where do we draw the line? millions of scenarios

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^ ^ ^ ^ ^

 

The above makes no sense.

I make it simple for you.

 

Even if God and Jesus was proven real and the bible was true by all humanity and all scientists

 

Would you love God and choose to be morally accountable to him submit your lifestyle to what he wants?

 

Your answer is no.

 

And your reason for that answer is simple

 

You do not know anything about me or what I would decide under what circumstances.  The above is an insult.

 

 

"[if] God and Jesus was were proven real and the bible was [accepted as] true by all humanity and all scientists," then only immoral people and people too stupid to understand what the Bible clearly states about acts committed by Bible God would worship that horrible, abusive shit.

 

Not saying that Stake Source is immoral, necessarily. He may be merely stupid, as are the majority of fundies who never grow beyond their indoctrination.

 

 

 

My Position Stands then.....Unless the bible is re written or UN written. Regardless of any evidence presented. logically his existence will be acknowledge but never his love unless someone goes back in time and re write the dead sea scrolls and all new testament manuscripts in a way that is pleasant to all atheists

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Prove me wrong ficcino.

 

 

Will you worship and love God and be morally accountable to him forever?

 

If you will I stand corrected

Your statement that you "used if the whole time" is incorrect - either a mistake or a lie, I don't know which.  You dropped your "if" clause in #52 above, the entirety of which I quote. 

 

But I accept that you intended your "if" clause to carry into #52, so I withdraw my "FU".  What you said was not what you may have intended.

 

I find the Abrahamic God concept incoherent.  if I ever were to go back to religion, I think it would be some form of Vedanta, to which I was introduced as a teenager.  I agree with most of Bhim's criticisms of Christianity.  There is much that I still miss about the Catholic form of Christianity to which I was loyal, but its propositions amount to a tissue of absurdities.

 

The notion that we need to submit ourselves to God is very dangerously vacuous, because "God" is ill-defined.  Too easily, some group of humans take the leadership and claim to speak for God.  So submission becomes submission to them.  Not cool.  Let's have some form of group govt where people's different takes on these abstruse questions are respected.

 

If Jesus appeared to me and asked, Ficino, why do you persecute me? I would first freak out.  Then I'd question whether this was only a brain event.  It would take something outside of brain events to make me give allegiance.  Like maybe, Jesus being my friend, walking and talking with me in real life as the song says, maybe sticking some amputated limbs back on some folks, etc.  Not the shit that we actually get from Christianity.

 

 

The bible says that at the end when Jesus DOES come, he outlines what exactly peoples responses will be but you already know right?

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My Position Stands then.....Unless the bible is re written or UN written. Regardless of any evidence presented. logically his existence will be acknowledge but never his love unless someone goes back in time and re write the dead sea scrolls and all new testament manuscripts in a way that is pleasant to all atheists

 

 

 

Uh no.  Stubbornly refusing to listen doesn't mean your position stands.  That would only happen if you successfully defended it from all criticism.  What you are doing here is the opposite of defending your idea.

 

If God were to show up and act lovingly then that would be acknowledged.  Let's pretend that God showed up today and announced that the Bible was a pack of lies.  Then God cured cancer, Aids, ended all wars and crime, eliminated poverty, and apologized for not doing so sooner.  People would acknowledge these things.

 

Of course none of that is going to happen for the same reason that Superman won't show up.

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"If God were to show up and act lovingly then that would be acknowledged." ~mymistake

 

 

I believe God did show up and acted lovingly. 

 

He was crucified.

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Would I get in trouble if I invited Ironhorse to go outside and play a nice game of hide and go fuck himself? Just wondering. I don't want to get a warning point.

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"If God were to show up and act lovingly then that would be acknowledged." ~mymistake

 

 

I believe God did show up and acted lovingly. 

 

He was crucified.

 

 

You believe it but that doesn't make it true.  I was talking about God actually showing up instead of make believe.

 

 

And why did God go back into hiding?  No reason, of course.  Why didn't God show up in a land that had a literate population?  No reason.  Why didn't God show up in a time when cameras existed?  No reason.  Why are there thousands of other gods and gurus who have stories that sound just like the New Testament and have just as little supporting evidence?

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