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Goodbye Jesus

To Be Continued....or Not?


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Guest Furball

If we believe that there is universal truth out there, that is, we are part of something larger, call it life or life energy, then we must believe that this life or life energy simply continues on and on. Therefor if we are part of the whole, part of this life or life energy, then why do we believe that we, being a part of this life/life energy will not continue with it after death?

 

Why would this life energy sustain people to a certain point in this life and then remove it's energy for a part of itself to die out?

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It sounds like you're talking about the idea of a spirit that is separate from the body and lives on after it. In the most general sense, our energy, our atoms, are recycled into the earth, so we do continue in a sense. I personally don't believe that we have an autonomous spirit.

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Fair enough. But then why meditate on a higher power at all. If there is no after life, then why seek a higher power and evolve spiritually if this life ends and that's it. If life does continue, and we get to keep evolving in another life, then meditating on a higher power and putting in the effort to spiritually evolve makes sense. 

 

That's why the title. To be continued (do we get to keep spiritually evolving after this life)....or not? (if we don't get to continue after this life, then going to the trouble to spiritually evolve in this life is pointless.

 

-me

 

Also it is said we only use 10% of our brain. How do we know that the feeling of reaching some higher power isn't simply caused by taking in deeper breaths during meditation, resulting in more oxygen reaching the brain, thereby making it more active? 

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CC, I'm not trying to be confrontational -- this is after all the Spirituality board. I am here as one who doesn't really understand spirituality to begin with, something I had to become a ex-Christian to really understand.

So, from that framework:

How does "evolve spiritually" differ from becoming more understanding, more skilled, more empathetic, or any number of other traits we can cultivate? I have heard meditators talk about their experiences during meditation, and perhaps for some gaining a sense of peace or something not tangible. Is this what you're talking about? Are you talking about perspective? Getting outside the humdrum of the nose-to-the-grindstone type life we lead? I'm all in for that: Watch some birds flit around in the trees, call and sing. I can walk by sidewalk cafes and observe humans foraging too, contentedly having conversation and eating, just hanging out. No, I don't stand around like a creeper, just walk by, but this is elevating, if you will, in that it gets me outside my own life and routine.

 

I do have one trifling challenge though: this new use of the word "energy". Christians, new agers, and others use it. I'm not trying to split hairs here, but energy is just the flow of electrons, the vibration of matter, and can be harnessed to run your cell phone or operate the space station. Energy is actually rather mundane. It seems when people talk about energy in this way, they're talking about something exclusively *NOT* mundane: something that we humans experience as transcendant. The old Greek term "pneuma" which meant wind or unknown source might fit, but I don't know. Energy is just the catalyst force which keeps things moving. It doesn't actually "hold anything together". The electricity that powers your cell phone isn't "holding it together," it's just a catalyst for the electrons to move through the pathways so the circuits can function as we designed them. But your cell phone expresses a hell of a lot more design, and has a lot fewer bugs in it, than does the universe.

 

Anyway I'm not "anti spirituality." I'm more "I don't really get spirituality." I come on this particular forum in order to hopefully learn something, maybe probe a little bit so someone will anser something and I'll learn a little more.

I do think our experience of what we call transcendant is very much a part of us, be it those who can meditate, or just human love, or looking with awe at some natural phenomenon. I also think the experiences people have are very real: in this way I part ways with many of my fellow skeptics. The explanation for these experiences may not bee all that wootastic, but it need not be mundane, nor need we blame everyone as though they had committed some "sin" of the mind.

I hang out here because I'm curious: Most people experience more spirituality than I do, at least that's what they call it. It's just a way for me to increase my understanding of other fellow human beings.

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Hi leo. Your right. I shouldn't have posted a dumb post that no one could learn from. I won't do it again. I humbly apologise to you and the others who visit this forum. I am sorry.

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Hi leo. Your right. I shouldn't have posted a dumb post that no one could learn from. I won't do it again. I humbly apologise to you and the others who visit this forum. I am sorry.

Don't be silly cc. There's nothing wrong with your OP. I'll answer your other post a little later,

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I'm sorry CC, I didn't think it was dumb. Stimulating a bit of thought on my part? Sure. Did it spawn more questions than it gave answers? Sure. But what could possibly be dumb about that? I think people have a right, if not maybe an obligation, to share this stuff if they want. And the rest of us, who may not totally get it, but may wish to increase what we know, might ask a question or several. But that doesn't mean your OP was dumb or didn't communicate clearly: it just means we didn't get it. I guess I attempted to state that I often don't, in these matters, but wish to empathize better with people who do, so I do tend to ask questions and hopefully learn. In this way, I think many of my fellow skeptics have things completely wrong. I'm simply not prepared to dismiss other human beings' experiences, especially things that people obviously feel strongly about. I can appreciate that you probably have gotten guff for this from others: Orbit has, some of the pagans on here have. I'm sorry this has happened, a sad case of humans parting ways with empathy and leaving you all in the lurch there. Your post wasn't at all dumb, especially in light of the safe space this forum is supposed to be.

 

My sincere apologies for contributing to the non-safeness of this, if that is how I came across. That was not intentional, but intentional or no, it sounds like I did. All I can say is that I considered carefully before asking to have posting permissions on this space, I told the mods I am an atheist, but understand the space for what it is, and I'd post to learn, not to be combative or violate others' feelings in what is often a delicate area. So again, my apologies, and IMHO your post wasn't dumb at all. There are just a few of us "dumb clucks" who don't understand it the same way, and some of us are both honest enough and empathetic enough to ask, and hopefully learn a bit more.

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Fair enough. But then why meditate on a higher power at all. If there is no after life, then why seek a higher power and evolve spiritually if this life ends and that's it. If life does continue, and we get to keep evolving in another life, then meditating on a higher power and putting in the effort to spiritually evolve makes sense. 

 

That's why the title. To be continued (do we get to keep spiritually evolving after this life)....or not? (if we don't get to continue after this life, then going to the trouble to spiritually evolve in this life is pointless.

 

-me

 

Also it is said we only use 10% of our brain. How do we know that the feeling of reaching some higher power isn't simply caused by taking in deeper breaths during meditation, resulting in more oxygen reaching the brain, thereby making it more active? 

 

Hi CC. Sorry I didn't see your post earlier.  It is a continuation.  No doubt in my mind. It makes absolutely zero sense to cultivate a spiritual life if this is the only one you have.  My friend, you just don't have time.  Look around you, and see how aware and sane and peaceful most people are - the picture isn't pretty.   I don't think I'm going out on a limb saying that so called spirituality hasn't done much for most, and will not do it 20,30 or 40 years down the road and some may not do it 100 years down the road. 

 

However, if there is something eternal about all this, then a thousand years might make a difference in the mind stream of this entity as it reincarnated from one form to another. Then it makes a big difference, over time, what you think and do in small increments.

 

Let me be clear that after having said that, I do not believe in the actual existence of a concrete "soul" or continuation of a particular personality beyond the fact that sometimes some memories are preserved from the prior life, and tendencies, usually bad ones, carry over.

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Fair enough. But then why meditate on a higher power at all. If there is no after life, then why seek a higher power and evolve spiritually if this life ends and that's it. If life does continue, and we get to keep evolving in another life, then meditating on a higher power and putting in the effort to spiritually evolve makes sense. 

 

That's why the title. To be continued (do we get to keep spiritually evolving after this life)....or not? (if we don't get to continue after this life, then going to the trouble to spiritually evolve in this life is pointless.

 

-me

 

Also it is said we only use 10% of our brain. How do we know that the feeling of reaching some higher power isn't simply caused by taking in deeper breaths during meditation, resulting in more oxygen reaching the brain, thereby making it more active? 

Hi CC-

A couple of thoughts. First, are you concerned with the idea of an independent soul because it's a question that arose from your meditation practice, or are you having a hard time letting go of the afterlife idea from Christianity?

 

In my own beliefs, any higher power is unknown and unknowable, but that creative spark of intelligence inside ourselves is what I connect to during meditation. Consciousness itself is unknown to us also--neuroscientists don't know where it comes from. When I meditate, I am exploring that unknown inner space, which is itself a manifestation of the universe.

 

There are certain kinds of Buddhism that see meditation ss a way to prepare your mind for the moment of death, so that you have a peaceful and not frightening experience at that moment. My own purpose in meditation is to connect with that spark of consciousness within myself and to feel connected to the cosmos through it. It's also an avenue to personal growth and an exploration of my own psychology. In this way, it is far from pointless. It helps me in life. I wouldn't worry about an afterlife; this life is the one you have to deal with.

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Guest Furball

 

It is said we only use 10% of our brain.

 

Actually, the idea that we only use 10% of our brain is a myth. 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_percent_of_brain_myth

 

Boy i really screwed up in here didn't I. I Made a real mess of things and posted stupid questions. I should have left this website along time ago seeing i am not an intellectual person. I am sorry for posting that quote dave, i should have done more research before posting it. I apologise for wasting your time and everyone elses. I feel really humiliated and stupid. I am truly sorry for being an idiot.

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Relax, CC.  Lot's of people pass that misinformation along everyday.   "It is said" by many. Your statement is correct. It reminds me of how Jesus speaks in the gospels though. "You have heard," "It is written..." ;-)

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Relax, CC.  Lot's of people pass that misinformation along everyday.   "It is said" by many. Your statement is correct. It reminds me of how Jesus speaks in the gospels though. "You have heard," "It is written..." ;-)

 

Couldn't have said it better, TF. 

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Agree with TF. How else do we learn without getting more information and exposing our own misinformation? Sometimes publicly, and sometimes just to ourselves? People like Orbit, and some of the pagans on here, have knowingly and unknowingly corrected misinformation I have had. So why is that "dumb"? It's actually smart, you know, CC. To recognize it, then take care of it, is intelligence and not stupidity. And it's a really common myth, the 10% of the brain bit. You gotta realize that everybody's a little bit ignorant. Well some of us more than others: I'm a lot bit ignorant, personally, when it comes to psychology and spirituality and similar things. Richard Dawkins, for instance, is seriously ignorant when it comes to the mechanics of cultural anthropology and how cultural systems work. It's obvious by what he puts out on Twitter.

 

We're all just a little bit ignorant of some things, and ignorance isn't a crime. It's not a crime either, when you or someone else corrects the rest of us. So lay off yourself, and not be so hard on yourself IMHO.

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I guess this means you didn't like my post lol.

But seriously, cc we're here for you. Why close the thread?

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CC I think you are awesome, and an asset to ex-c.  I didn't know about the 10% thing being a myth until about a month ago myself.  We are here to support each other.  Hugs.

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I'm puzzled by your reaction, Ceiling Cat.  We base ideas on assumptions that are wrong on occasions, or put out ideas that lead others to reason in ways we don't expect.  That doesn't make it wrong to state the question in the first place.  The stupid questions are the ones no-one has the courage to ask.

 

Anyhow, in a funny sort of way I agree with quite a bit of the apparently contradictory standpoints above.

 

Personally, like Deva, I do accept the idea of personal continuation.  I cannot prove it.  I'm not going to get involved in arguments over it.  I simply choose to accept it because that's how things look to me.

 

I also accept that we should concentrate on this life.  It is the existence that we can prove, the reality that we can navigate, so lets get on with it.

 

I agree with Leo insofar as I find talk of "energy" and similar terms unhelpful.  If there is an afterlife, its' nature is not susceptible to current methods of quantification and observation, so any such terminology is, at best, speculative and quite possibly misleading.

 

Orbit's thoughts of connecting with our consciousness is an idea with which I have some sympathy.  That is partly because it is our consciousness that is our means of self expression in this life, and partly because, if there is an individual afterlife, it is our consciousness that must continue.  Also, I tend to some sympathy with the upanishadic idea that "all is consciousness"; on that basis, connecting with one's own consciousness is our (likely only) method of connecting with whatever greater reality is out there.

 

My terminology here is as neutral as I can make it in terms of stating a position without arguing in favour of it.  It is my way of looking at things - it need not be and probably should not be anyone else's.

 

Oh - and Leo - I'm not sure anyone "gets" spirituality.  It's just that some of us choose to practice something that comes within that general description because we find we get something out of it - be it a sense of peace, of connection with whatever existence might be, something else or none of the above.

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The topic isn't a bad one. People all over the world have been thinking about it for centuries now. There is no reason to feel bad for the topic. Please continue sharing ideas. We can all learn from exchange of ideas. I think the thread had some good discussion and information.

 

I think the 10% of the brain myth was started because we didn't know what the other 90% of the brain did. It's probably more accurate to say we only understand what 10% of the brain does. At least back when that statement was made. Pop culture really likes to spread this 10% myth so most people believe it.

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CC, this is not a 'bad' thread at all my dear. If you look way, way back in the spirituality section, you will see when I first arrived here and posted many of the same questions. I nearly drove Ex-c and myself crazy with questions. Deep thinkers always want to know the answers to everything and I know you are a deep thinker. Deep thinkers are smart and we want answers dammit!!! Lol

 

I also (not long ago) learned of the myth of the 10% brain as I had been searching for some other spirituality for the last 4 years to fill in the hole where the christian god used to be. I know for me that hole must be filled with the nice things on earth including meditation.

 

My MIL, who is very old, ended up in the hospital this week. We have been there all week. For the very first time in my life, I observed personally what happens to the brain when it goes out of order. I saw the brain of a human being completely out of control from delirium. I watched as a human being experienced heaven and hell in a hospital bed. It was one of the most disturbing things I have ever experienced. This darling woman even had a visit from Micheal Jackson.  But she also kept picking bugs off of me and wanting the nurses to clean the frogs and fish up off the floors. For 3 days she experienced everything from a 22 year old man flirting with her (which she found completely disgusting because she is 93) to having a family reunion where she was laughing and laughing and laughing. She had conversations with people who were not even in the room. I'm still reeling from the whole week. It was exhausting to see here go off in la-la land and not know if it was going to be a good experience or not. 

 

I also knew intuitively that 'prayer' wasn't going to work. The antibiotics would be the only thing to clear up this infection..holding her hand and letting her know she wasn't alone helped a little. I was surprised that I didn't 'pray' to anything. Nothing. This was human sickness and I can't imagine even the highest of 'powers' allowing this darling old, very fragile lady to experience this..

 

As much as I want there to be something more, this experience showed me first hand that these spiritual experiences could (and probably are)  brought on by the brain itself as I was suspecting. Her whole brain was working, but not in a good way. The neural network connections in her brain were all out of 'Kilter'. As MIL's brain is starting to calm down, she is becoming more of her old personality.

 

I just wanted to post this today to let you know that you are not alone in these questions. I think one must come to their own conclusions. No matter what I see and what I know to be fact, I still, deep down inside want to believe that 'something'...some energy 'rules' and we live on forever. Even after experiencing what I did this week.

 

I give you a big hug because I know what it feels like to want so desperately.... to have some answers.

 

Hug

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I guess to answer my post topic myself, this discussion will not continue. I pm'd deva to close this abominable thread down

I think this is a good thread, and a good topic.  I have not seen any stupidity or cowardliness. I have pm'd you back CC.

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As logical as I can be I still have a 'belief', if you will' that everything is connected on a subtle level… sort of an underlying matrix of… something. I think 'spirituality' is a something, as yet maybe undefined, or not understood… I lean towards reincarnation if I have any concept of a continuation at all - it's the only one that makes sense to me. I also lean towards a pantheism of sorts - mostly not analyzed yet as it is a part of my life that does not require deep analysis. I am also very intuitive and no rational thinking has ever proven to me more useful in certain areas of my life as my intuition. I don't know how it works… and maybe it doesn't matter - but people (and situations, sometimes places) have some sort of energy that I react to… and my initial reactions - though subtle are frequently very accurate.

 

however… my conception of reincarnation has changed and it would be an essence and not necessarily a personality that continued…. a pattern, maybe? 

 

It's a very nebulous idea that I have - fluid, changing… and vague. All I know is that the 'something' referred to as spirituality (NOT religion), and what I have experienced as a subtle energy or presence (not anthropomorphized) through nature… along with some weird physical things that occur (like multiple independent discoveries) which give me pause.  I also consider Jung's collective unconscious as something that is very interesting.

 

I also think though that this life is the one I need to focus on.. and that my idea of spirituality is one that encompasses me becoming a better person, more authentic, more in tune with myself, others and the natural world, more personally responsible for my actions and choices in the big picture - as part of a species, and the world as a whole, and the awareness that this is a balance that is not predicated on any kind of continuation of myself...

 

Good OP.  Thanks

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This goes to show how wide spread the 10% of the brain myth is:

 

 

I haven't seen this yet but I really want to. The concept is cool regardless. What is the human mind really capable of doing? As orbit mentioned, science still doesn't understand consciousness fully even in the modern age of science that we live in. Is it limited to the brain, is it ingrained throughout the universe and a nervous system simply brings consciousness into closer focus? I posted this on another thread but I'll post it here for you because it may be something that aids your question: 

 

 

This doesn't deal with death exactly, but it deals with consciousness in life and perhaps what living and dying may mean with respect to primary consciousness and our relation to it. Perhaps our birth is illusory in some way and we've actually always been around because:

 

"what you are, basically, deep, deep down, far, far in - is simply the fabric and structure of existence itself." - Alan Watts (Out of your Mind series).

 

Do we identify with the form we are currently and it's apparent life cycle, or do we identify with the aspect of ourselves which is just existence itself and necessarily eternal?

 

Perhaps the mythology of an eternal soul may be interpreted as the part of everyone that is simply existence itself, that which was, is, and shall forever be. The truth is that death is a mystery that we don't really know for sure. Certainly our material goes inanimate and becomes a lifeless object in the end. But what is matter? We don't really know that either, not concretely, as Peter Russel the meditating physicist explained. What you can take out of this is that facing the unknown is must in your situation. 

 

Making friends with uncertainty and the unknown is key to truth seeking in general. 

 

And shouldn't that be ok? Concluding that we don't know with certainty what happens when we die? To claim otherwise treads close to dishonesty. We just assume that death is the end as atheists. And as theists we just assumed that God is literal and death is not the end. What if the truth is neither? These are good questions to ask. 

 

But even if death is the absolute end and this life is our only life, why make spirituality into something other than a healthy attitude that benefits our one life to live? Why does it have to rest on trying to gain an afterlife? Many people have found a spiritual attitude that has nothing to do with viewing this life as a staging area for the next. 

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 Why does it have to rest on trying to gain an afterlife? Many people have found a spiritual attitude that has nothing to do with viewing this life as a staging area for the next. 

I don't recall anyone saying being spiritual will gain an after life. There is nothing wrong with "being" spiritual in this life if that's all there is, if it helps you, i know i meditate to help me through this life. But to truly believe we have a spirit and that there is an after life that is spiritual, it makes sense to desire to spiritually evolve as much as we can before entering that realm. If we believe that we don't have a spirit or there is no after life that is spiritual, then pursuing spirituality in this life is meaningless, aside from general meditation exercises. 

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