To Be Continued....or Not?

[Joshpantera]

 

 Why does it have to rest on trying to gain an afterlife? Many people have found a spiritual attitude that has nothing to do with viewing this life as a staging area for the next. 

I don't recall anyone saying being spiritual will gain an after life. There is nothing wrong with "being" spiritual in this life if that's all there is, if it helps you, i know i meditate to help me through this life. But to truly believe we have a spirit and that there is an after life that is spiritual, it makes sense to desire to spiritually evolve as much as we can before entering that realm. If we believe that we don't have a spirit or there is no after life that is spiritual, then pursuing spirituality in this life is meaningless, aside from general meditation exercises. 

 

Aha, it's the meditation exercises that are the spiritual. That's what I'm saying. 

 

Whatever else you're up to is largely speculative, yes, so trying to pour a lot of attention into something that's very speculative may turn out to be a waste of time if in reality there is no afterlife. 

 

Let's suppose there is an afterlife. 

 

Does any one really know what it is? If so, how? And by what measure do they teach you to prepare for this afterlife that they likely have no idea whats like? Imagine that you've prepared by reading the Egyptian or Tibetan books of the dead. Some think that lucid dreaming is preparation for the afterlife. They think that by learning to control your dreams you'll be prepared to navigate the afterlife when death occurs. What if they're completely wrong? It doesn't really matter if it's true or not. If you want to take a precaution and you're aware of what you're doing, it's just a safety net.

 

There's a name for this sort of thing, ah yes, Pascal's Wager.

[Guest Furball]

No you misunderstood. When i said aside from the meditation exercises, i meant that they have no spiritual value at all except for simply doing deep breathing exercises. If you believe nothing can prepare us for an afterlife, whatever that may be, then why come on this forum and have an opinion at all? It seems like your opinion is that no one knows nothing therefor all things are in vain so why do anything at all. I think that's a hopeless outlook on life AND death. -whatever

[Orbit]

Isn't it a better use of your time to deal with THiS life, whether though meditation or anything else? How would one prepare for an afterlife, anyway? I don't agree that life is pointless with no afterlife; in fact it makes this life all the more meaningful.

[Joshpantera]

No you misunderstood. When i said aside from the meditation exercises, i meant that they have no spiritual value at all except for simply doing deep breathing exercises. If you believe nothing can prepare us for an afterlife, whatever that may be, then why come on this forum and have an opinion at all? It seems like your opinion is that no one knows nothing therefor all things are in vain so why do anything at all. I think that's a hopeless outlook on life AND death. -whatever

What I told you is that the afterlife is unknown. Nothing can prepare you for what remains unknown, because, of course, no one could know how to prepare for something that they have no idea about. The myths are not literal. They don't prepare us for anything concrete. Whatever the afterlife may or may not be, it's likely not what you expect it to be. 

 

Pascal's Wager means that you just place your bets on there being an afterlife in the way you conceive of it just in case the afterlife is true, and real, and what you expect it to be.The whole idea is, "why not, there's nothing to loose."  

 

I was throwing you a bone in terms of suggesting "why not?" You're struggling with whether it's real or not and wondering if spiritual growth is a waste of time if none of it's true. And I'm saying it's a really uncertain subject you're right for doubting it, I was agreeing with the doubts you're having not trying to counter you in some way. But what I've added to your doubts is the idea of what the hell, go for it anyways if it makes you feel better - Pascal's Wager. 

 

I find it interesting that you interpreted what I said as:

 

"If you believe nothing can prepare us for an afterlife, whatever that may be, then why come on this forum and have an opinion at all? It seems like your opinion is that no one knows nothing therefor all things are in vain so why do anything at all. I think that's a hopeless outlook on life AND death. -whatever"

 

 If I had said that then it would be a hopeless outlook. Luckily I didn't suggest it that way.  

[Guest Furball]

Your pascal wager theory is a put down. What it says is that i am just guessing what i think spirituality means, and that all the things i have experienced spiritually are not true, i am simply just hedging my bets that the afterlife is going to be there. By bringing up pascals wager you did suggest it that way. Pascals wager leaves one with no truth at all but a hopeless "gee i hope i'm right" fearful uncertain attitude about the afterlife. It sounds like you and orbit already have everything figured out. What you have added to my doubts are more doubts by throwing pascals worthless wager into the mix. Jesus just have the balls to tell me that your right and i'm wrong about all this spirituality stuff. Pascals wager leaves me feeling that all my spiritual efforts are in vain, and that all spiritual endeavors have no meaning whatsoever, so just give it all up. Your post did nothing but what i said it did, leave me hopeless and feeling that all my spirituality is complete bullcrap.

 

I am leaving this forum for good 

 

What should have been a learning experience coming in here, really is just turning out to be something for a lion's den debate. What a waste of what should have been a great forum

 

 

Thread closed

[Deva]

In my opinion, it is most unfortunate that we have "Pascal's Wager," often used by Christians as a defense of Christianity, used in this section of the forum at all.  Its a discredited and weak idea that doesn't hold up at all for any serious or helpful discussion.  I agree with Ceiling Cat that it is a put down, although, Josh, I don't  think you meant it in that way, at least I hope not.

 

I think it is very tough to have a discussion about spirituality when the person posting is continually challenged and questioned, rather than supported. 

[Joshpantera]

If we believe that there is universal truth out there, that is, we are part of something larger, call it life or life energy, then we must believe that this life or life energy simply continues on and on. Therefor if we are part of the whole, part of this life or life energy, then why do we believe that we, being a part of this life/life energy will not continue with it after death?

 

Why would this life energy sustain people to a certain point in this life and then remove it's energy for a part of itself to die out?

I'm bringing up the opening post because I think it's a really good question and I failed to address it head on with my previous posts. 

 

This is compatible with what I have learned about spirituality. I have learned that God represents the whole. If we think of energy as life then the whole is alive with energy. I do believe that we're an aspect of the whole and that in that specific sense we were never born and will never die. I'm not talking about ego consciousness not being born or dying, I'm talking about that dimension of ourselves which is eternal, what Deva has called a core. To me, the core is the aspect of ourselves which is simply existence itself. That's abstract and philosophical, but it's best description that I have. 

 

I'm not putting you down by saying Pascal's Wager, because I don't mean it in the Christian sense. 

 

In the sense we're talking about here it's about not knowing what happens after we die in a literal sense, but at the same time accepting ourselves as part of the whole regardless of not knowing. Being ok with the natural life cycle of energy however it unfolds. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. Existence has always been and will always be in one form or another. We can connect with that larger view and we can experience our own eternity through our connection to it. Does this spiritual language better describe it? We don't know if our present ego consciousness survives death, perhaps we can hope that it does while at the same time being honest enough to admit that we ultimately don't know in any absolute sense. It's still something to connect with regardless of knowing all the details or not. 

 

Your point about energy and the whole rings as a valid point. We're part of something larger than ourselves whether we understand it all in a literal sense or not. Where Deva has spoken about a core, I have a similar feeling about existence itself, which, I'm viewing as a type of core or ground of being. I see it as what people would call an eternal soul in mythology. But I'm looking at the mythology as a metaphor. The eternal mystery is our foundation. Everything arises and returns to what remains unknown in our minds. The problem is that we are the unknown and our minds are struggling to understand itself because our true depths have no bounds and that's beyond what the mind can process. So we have to pick a point a and point z and identify with something in between. That can be our birth and death or that can be the birth of the universe and it's end, if we identify ourselves as the universe incarnate. But we're larger than even that. You are right and this thread isn't meaningless. 

[Joshpantera]

In my opinion, it is most unfortunate that we have "Pascal's Wager," often used by Christians as a defense of Christianity, used in this section of the forum at all.  Its a discredited and weak idea that doesn't hold up at all for any serious or helpful discussion.  I agree with Ceiling Cat that it is a put down, although, Josh, I don't  think you meant it in that way, at least I hope not.

 

I think it is very tough to have a discussion about spirituality when the person posting is continually challenged and questioned, rather than supported. 

I'll try to come up with a different way of describing it, PW was the closest thing I could come up with. If you're struggling, why not look at it as placing your bets on something? If you feel strong about placing your bets on one particular view of what the afterlife will hold, go ahead with it. You're being honest enough with yourself to admit that you're not all-knowing and neither is anyone else who presented these concepts in the first place (Egyptians, eastern mystics, whoever), but you feel intuitively that it's probably right. That's not exactly PW, but it's similar. 

[Deva]

 

In my opinion, it is most unfortunate that we have "Pascal's Wager," often used by Christians as a defense of Christianity, used in this section of the forum at all.  Its a discredited and weak idea that doesn't hold up at all for any serious or helpful discussion.  I agree with Ceiling Cat that it is a put down, although, Josh, I don't  think you meant it in that way, at least I hope not.

 

I think it is very tough to have a discussion about spirituality when the person posting is continually challenged and questioned, rather than supported. 

I'll try to come up with a different way of describing it, PW was the closest thing I could come up with. If you're struggling, why not look at it as placing your bets on something? If you feel strong about placing your bets on one particular view of what the afterlife will hold, go ahead with it. You're being honest enough with yourself to admit that you're not all-knowing and neither is anyone else who presented these concepts in the first place (Egyptians, eastern mystics, whoever), but you feel intuitively that it's probably right. That's not exactly PW, but it's similar. 

 

 

I appreciate that.  I do thank you for your polite tone throughout and the overall civility of this thread.

[Guest Furball]

I was thinking about this, this morning. I think what we have here between joshpantera and myself is a misunderstanding. For me, believing in the afterlife and the spirituality of it, at least from my standpoint is not a pascal wager. I am not hedging my bets. I know for certain that i will have to leave this body on earth, i know that if there is an afterlife and it is a spiritual one, i know that the spiritual experiences i have experienced and the truths as far as i have experienced them with not be in vain. For me there is no pascal wager, i believe i have certainties as far a my spiritual experiences go. Why else would i be having these if it were all fake?

 

Joshpantera - i do believe i may have not understood what you were getting at and will also admit maybe i didn't type out what i meant in a cohesive manner that made sense to you. I have a hard time getting my point across sometimes through typing. So i will take the better road and humbly apologise for the above mentioned. -peace

[Joshpantera]

No problem. 

[Geezer]

Dark energy and dark matter are no longer theories. If the theories about multiple universes, multiple dimensions, black holes, and the universe being a hologram are true; then is it possible that life exists in one of these other places, or is life as we know it is actually a hologram and we exists in other realties now?  I love science and all the possibilities that may be theoretically possible.

 

It seems to me in order to be a pure rationalists one would also have to have a limited imagination. Dark energy used to be a theory. We know now there is a lot of invisible stuff in our universe and if that stuff didn't exists we wouldn't either. What else exists that we don't know about?

[Leo]

CC, if your experiences have helped you even by now, then they cannot possibly be deemed pointless.

I have some odd views on the afterlife, if there is one. Sure, I'm an agnostic atheist, and as such don't really spend time thinking much about the afterlife. But let's just say there is one:

 

How do we know this life is some kind of test? How do we know this life is here to prepare us for that afterlife? People who have spiritual experiences and defend them, usually say they have benefitted from the experiences now. If that's the case, whether there is or isn't an afterlife, you still benefit.

 

Now I don't know if you've ever passed out. But something interesting happens. Yes, there is that sense of foreboding before it happens -- your body's warning bells. But when you wake up from it, at least in my case every time it's happened, you get a slew of memory or experience that just goes by sort of like a film in slow motion. So whether there is a spirit or soul, or if it's just your brain reacting, you feel like there's something. And I can completely imagine how something might feel like an "afterlife" even if it just takes a split second in real time. You know how you fall asleep, have a really long dream, and wake up just a couple minutes later? Time gets distorted in our minds.

 

I'm with Geezer on this stuff, too much interesting discoveries are being made, and it's far too fascinating to write off as either all spirit or all classic rationalism.

 

My personal opinion, enjoy the ride if the experiences are helping you. There might be an afterlife. But that doesn't mean this one is a staging ground where you are being tested and prepared, or where you have to evolve to a higher consciousness to be let in. You didn't do anything to get born, did you? If the experiences you're having are a comfort to you, that's great. But I wouldn't worry about pressure to evolve / enlighten in time and just enough so you can make it into the afterlife, or get a good seat, as it were. Doing without that fear of not making it is probably one of the most helpful things about being outside any organized religion. And it seems lots of the people who classify themselves as spiritual live without that fear, although some really do talk about trying to be tested or enlightened enough to get a good seat in their afterlife.

 

Anywayjust my thoughts, please don't get offended. I think everyone here wants you to have the best for yourself, whatever that is. And in my personal opinion, curiosity is always a good thing.