Fake Extimonies?

[zuker12]

I accidentally typed the address of this site into google (kek) and scrolled down the first page. I found a topic on Puritan Forum about this site... Most of it was just reasonable dismissing, and the old scripture quotation that none of us were True Christians.

 

However, one post caught my attention. The author implied that not all of the extimonies we have on site are authentic. This is a baseless accusation of course, but this does bring to my mind the fact that people DO lie or atleast exaggerate and misunderstand all the time. Christians do this, atheists do this, muslims do this. People of all ideologies and beliefs seem to do this.

 

What do you think of this premise? How would we know? What does it matter? Can they not see the log in their own eye?

 

[snippet of thoughts]

I don't think here anyone leaving xtianity would have a motive to present a fake extimony. Ex-christians are diverse and it's not an ideology or religion in and of itself... it's just a label, or a status marker. We don't have congregations, where we want more and more followers and possibly money. We don't have a make-believe motivation nor do we really idolize anything, maybe life itself at most (liars for christ anyone?). We were not coerced to do this nor brainwashed (a xtian WILL dispute this becoz of Teh Satinz), we just had doubts and came to our own conclusions. Ex-christian status doesn't allow us to leverage power nor glory. When you believe something, you may eventually end up consumed by it in your mind. Emotions play a part too, but this is different for each and every human being in each and every ideology, belief, etc. in the world. Some are extremely impulse-driven, some not. This probably affects their tendency to lie or even believe their own made-up story.

 

Ironically if there were dupes, this would render all other kinds testimonies automatically dubious. A notorious example is the "ex-satanist" schema that is one meme among radical fundie churches. There are quite a few fakes in this manner. I read a post about former fundie where she told that her husband gave his testimony out as an ex-satanist, when he was pretty much a docile non-religious person before conversion. Reason was "yeah I'm sorry I lied, but christ is the greatest thing in the universe. Isn't it reasonable to achieve a greater good using a minor bad?"(paraphrasing.) Also christian testimonies have a tendency to be exaggerated. I'm not saying all xtians exaggerate, but I do know cases where people exaggerate their claims, or focus overtly on what others would term normal or minor offences at most, and claim that they had been "wallowing in sin". It's pretty much the influence of the deep self-hatred and societal disgust that fundie xtianity instills.

[VahnBlue]

The only thing remotely close to a fake extimony, that I could think of, would be a person hiding their ulterior motives(Money, power, etc) under the guise of just having simple convictions and leaving the religion based off of such...though if it were true, they wouldn't really leave in the first place. Churches have copious amounts of money & power lmao

[Orbit]

I am insulted by people saying the extmonies are fake. It's hard to write one's story. What would be the possible benefit to anyone for making up an extimony? None. And you can hear the truth ring in ExC extimonies, you can't fake the ring of truth.

[Overcame Faith]

However, one post caught my attention. The author implied that not all of the extimonies we have on site are authentic.

 

What this sounds like to me is that the poster on the other site was suggesting that someone has or a group of people on ExC have been writing fictional extimonies and attributing them to non-existent members. I think the suggestion is that there are not as many ExChristians as the large numbers of extimonies suggest.

 

Of course, we know that is nonsense, but, if my assessment is correct, it seems that at least one Christian (the poster) feels very uncomfortable with the extimonies and wants to discredit them, perhaps as a defensive mechanism for his/her own doubts.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I am insulted by people saying the extmonies are fake. It's hard to write one's story. What would be the possible benefit to anyone for making up an extimony? None. And you can hear the truth ring in ExC extimonies, you can't fake the ring of truth.

Funny thing is, my extimony was the truest testimony I've ever given.  As a christian, I lied all the time about how bad my life and behavior were before I finally accepted jesus.  Hell, I even claimed I had attempted suicide on a number of occasions.  The truth was far from it.  I was simply an average, middle-class kid with no real problems other than never being allowed to be myself; then I accepted jesus and was simply an average, middle-class kid with no real problems other than never being allowed to be myself.

 

Truth does ring true.

 

I also know for truth that I wasn't the only kid in youth group who lied.  Once, the music minister's son came up to me and told me all about this vision he had about jesus on the cross.  I looked in his eyes and knew he had made the whole thing up.  What's more, he looked into my eyes and could tell that I knew.  That didn't stop either one of us from perpetuating the lie, even embellishing it, throughout the youth group.  Yeah, a little white lie for a greater truth, indeed.

[Burny]

Nobody would or could make the shit up that we post on this site. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to put themselves through the hell that is deconversion unless you REALLY mean it.

 

This is something my friends and family still don't get. They like to throw around the cheap and easy accusations like;

• they were never true christians
• they are selfish and chasing their own desires
• they didn't like listening to god anymore
• ...

We tried many times to explain how difficult this process was for us but all we heard was, "if it's so difficult why did you do it"?! You can't win with fundies. My new mantra is, "I can't argue with crazies". I leave it at that.

[mymistake]

It seems silly to me.  Here the only reason to write a testimony is therapy.  And the only reason we need therapy is because we were hurt.  Like any online community we will get the occasional insincere visitor goofing around.  However I think the vast majority of our ex-testimonies are legitimate.  The testimony is the hardest thing to write and often the hardest thing to read.  However if you do read hundreds of them you will notice they follow the pattern of Christianity's failure.  Perhaps that is the reason a real true believer wants to discredit us?

[♦ ficino ♦]

I was always taught by pastors and seminary profs that unbelievers reject Christianity at bottom out of rebellion against God and love of self/sin.  As the 4th gospel says, they love darkness rather than light because their works are evil.  So the Christian should try to cut through the intellectualizing rationalizations of the unbeliever and bring him face to face with his/her sin and a Holy God.

[mymistake]

I'm reading through it now.  Very funny!  Most of them just quote off a bible verse or two.  The first guy to suggest that ex-Christians are not legit talks about evidence.  We need evidence to believe these ex-Christians are telling the truth.  Do we need evidence to believe that God created our whole universe then created two ignorant people so that they would fail a test so that God would have to kill himself as a sacrifice to himself so that God could forgive a few of us?  No, that part needs no evidence at all.  What a joke.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I found a topic on Puritan Forum about this site...

Puritan Forum!!?? Holy shit.  Sounds like one of the bleakest, most depressing places I can imagine on the web.

 

I used to listen to Al Martin tapes.  Martin would often gush on about John Owen, the Puritan divine.  He said that Owen in one sermon goes on to a new topic with the words, "And sixty-fourthly..." 

 

No wonder the ushers walked around with clubs to clunk on the heads of men who fell asleep.  I can imagine women pretending to go into labor, or people pretending to die so their friends could carry them out.

[TrueFreedom]

That thread from 2005 is still showing up near the top of search results.  It covered just about everything in just a few posts.

 

Threats of violence, one of which was deleted after being quoted:

 

"I started off by telling the worst of them that if I was there in person I'd kick his teeth in. Then I started making fun of them and calling them idiots."

"Sounds like they could have used a good beat down! "

 

No true Scotsman fallacy:

 

"They went out from us, but they were not of us..."

 

Well-poisoning fallacy:

 

"Do not give dogs what is holy..."

 

A wink to only a scripture reference for a more humble approach:

 

"2 Timothy 2:24-25 ;-)"

 

This poster failed to quote what was referenced, perhaps not wanting to side against the aggressive mob:

 

"....In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth"

[yunea]

I can understand some troll writing a testimony FOR a god and seeing if it goes through on a forum for believers, such as like how you could go to a church and pretend you're talking in tongues when you're really reciting oriental food recipes. I can see how that could be funny.

 

But why would someone do that on a this kind of site by writing a dramatic ex-timony, I don't know. 

 

That guy who said that most of us seem to have been "almost christians" who just screwed up by sinning anyway... Sigh. Sounds like they didn't actually READ the site at all. 

[ToHellWithMe]

... I can see how that could be funny.

 

But why would someone do that on a this kind of site by writing a dramatic ex-timony, I don't know.

It could be for the same reason, couldn't it? The problem is, though, that you can't be a Christian to pull that off.

 

If you simply were a Christian attempting that thought experiment it would backfire and the joke would be on you. They can not be capable of having fun that way. So, that someone cannot be a Christian, it would have to be someone who can laugh at both sides. It could be someone who does not give a shit, but for it to take the form of an extimony (instead of simple play on atheist stereotypes), they'd have to be knowledgeable of the topic, which implies they at least at some point have given a shit.

 

I'd love to see the suspect extimonies.

[Leo]

Orbit I'm so sorry because you recently really poured your heart out on the Extimony board.

So have several others.

 

I don't know if they're looking for a sort of emotional ring or "I found it!" to make it legit, or like others have said, some kind of excuse to maintain their beliefs. I'm divided: they are 'the most to be pitied' in many ways. When they go manic, it's like dealing with a mentally ill person on the street. I'll have to see if I can find that forum and its posts. You're right, it seems nobody's written about us for awhile, I saw material a year ago that came from around 2005.

I wasn't a very good testimony-giver as a Christian, but I know I did stretch things and felt bad about it. I couldn't get behind Augustine's "lies that support the Truth" because it just struck me as so disingenuous.

 

The major difference between an extimony and a testimony is with an extimony the ending is not sure. A testimony has the three parts: Where you were before, how bad or sad or empty you were, where you were when you "found the Lord", and what's the god doing now. That is what I read as a Christian anyhow and so attempted to use those if asked. But an extimony is written more like what the 12-steppers do, it seems, though I've never been in a group of those. Mine was hard for me to write also, you feel a lot of things you're not sure you dare express on the Internet, square your shoulders and give it your best. But there's no cultural support. Testimonies happen outside Christianity too: sales and marketing use these all the time. But you never read "extimonies" of products -- or if you do, they don't look like a testimony.

 

I guess I don't demand that Christians understand us -- I hardly understand myself. I only ask they not act like unruly teenagers demanding their own way, so hard locked into an ideology the way that a lot of young people do when they first discover a cause.

 

But if you've ever seen a beaten woman -- I have seen this -- they will defend their abuser to the end. The abuser can do no wrong, even though she most probably has secret doubts and not so secret markings, which prove otherwise. I never understood this as a Christian, not even as a deconverting Christian. I never realized the mobster nature of their infrastructure. But if you're paying protection money to a system designed to kill you if you don't pay, you're gonna probably defend it if you want to stay sane.

 

This whole mess has got to give the sociology people and shrinks more work to do than a thousand lifetimes could achieve. I'm rather beside myself.

[Thought2Much]

I have at times wondered if everyone who comes here claiming to have been a pastor or a higher-up in some ministry or other is exaggerating their importance, similar to how every Christian who claims to be a former Satanist or Wiccan was always a high priest or chief warlock of a coven. I could see someone inflating their Christian status to gain attention here, but from what I've seen, it wouldn't work out to that person's advantage, since a person's "rank" here is more determined by the content of their posts than their Christian history, so any "Oh wow, you were really important in the Christian world" would fade pretty quickly with the folks here. There aren't any in particular that stand out as raising any red flags, so this is more just vague wondering on my part. Other than that, I tend to take the extimonies here at face value.

[Guest Furball]

I think what they meant is that we were never "True Believers" to begin with. They believe the verse that says "train up your child in the fear of the lord and he will never depart". They cannot possibly fathom an all knowing all powerful god not keeping his word and letting people go back "into the world," so they think we were all fakes to begin with. Before i joined this site someone on here said said something i read as a guest that i haven't forgotten since. They said this - "what christians don't understand is that those of us that have left christianity are the one's who took it most seriously."    These people on these christian websites are terrified of looking at the evidence and having their entire christian world come crashing down back to earth like the rest of us have. If anything, we Ex-C's are more courageous than they for having had the guts to look at the evidence and be the "real truth seekers." -me

[bdp]

I haven't even written an extimony because I really don't want to relive the whole process again.  And I also remember saying things I didn't believe as a Xtian so I would fit in.  It's better where I am now, of course, but I don't really think I want to look back.

[Thackerie]

I think what they meant is that we were never "True Believers" to begin with. They believe the verse that says "train up your child in the fear of the lord and he will never depart". They cannot possibly fathom an all knowing all powerful god not keeping his word and letting people go back "into the world," so they think we were all fakes to begin with. Before i joined this site someone on here said said something i read as a guest that i haven't forgotten since. They said this - "what christians don't understand is that those of us that have left christianity are the one's who took it most seriously."    These people on these christian websites are terrified of looking at the evidence and having their entire christian world come crashing down back to earth like the rest of us have. If anything, we Ex-C's are more courageous than they for having had the guts to look at the evidence and be the "real truth seekers." -me

 

True. So many of us, myself included, tried so hard to be christians that when the doubts started to creep in we launched into deep research into the bible and its history in an attempt to shore up our waning faith. Of course, once the light of research and rational thinking led us to the real truth, there was no way that those of us who are intellectually honest could go back to deluding ourselves.

[rach]

When I was a True Believer I was a compulsive liar.  Most of what I ever told people in those days was a flat-out lie.  And this is in spite of knowing the scripture verse in Revelations that all liars will be thrown into the lake of fire.  I can't quite explain what came over me in those days, because my primary concern at the time was saving myself and others from hell, but then on the other hand I was lying all the time and knew that would send me to hell.  I think what happened is I was so mentally ill by that point I didn't even know what reality was.  Reality was whatever I said it was.  The reality at that time, was that I had seen hell, I had heard people screaming, I had  seen Jesus and this is all the proof I or anybody needed.  I remember how passionately I would talk to my friends about this and how they would look at me with both disgust and sympathy seeing how mentally lost I had become.  Even when they shook their heads in pity while they listened to me, I'd just carry on and not let the devil stop my holy testimony.  Looking back on it, what had happened was that I was convinced I had to believe in Christianity to save myself, but I couldn't really believe, so I had to learn to lie to myself about everything in order to make myself believe.  Then I passed those lies onto others in a subconscious effort to affirm that I was a real believer. 

 

The compulsive lying habit disappeared almost overnight when I finally started deconversion.  That's when I stopped being a Follower of Christ and started being Rachel Truth Seeker.  So here we have yet another piece of evidence that Christianity is dirty, nasty stuff.  It turned me into a liar and a raving lunatic!  Look at me now.  My thoughts are coherent, and I try very hard to be honest about things because when you are a Truth Seeker you've got no motive for lying.  If it were not too embarrassing (it is!) I would show you some of the things I wrote when I was a Christian.  Rambling, incoherent, full of absurdities, black-and-white thinking, you would think "this girl is on drugs."  The fact that I can write coherently now is another proof that Christianity wrecked my brain. 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I concur with Human and others that said this sort of argument comes from fear and trying to dismiss instead of grappling with the reality that people discard the faith for legitimate reasons.

 

Also, I always find Jesus' arguments about us being "bad trees bearing bad fruit" and "loving the darkness because our deeds are evil" to fall completely flat when the scriptures say that EVERYONE is evil and even our righteous deeds are like filthy diapers. Which is it Jesus? Do we come to the light because we are good, or because we are bad and need salvation? But if we are bad, you say we avoid the light. Are we bearing good fruit on our own? Then why do we need you?

I think the Christianity of Jesus was far more about what we choose to do with our life (feed the hungry, being kind, giving to the poor) than about the Pauline magical change of self. But his statements about human nature still don't make sense in light of other older scriptures.

[Jeff]

writing my extimony really stirred up a bunch of crap for me.  I basically did not think about religion at all for some time until I found this site.

I even was concerned that people would think what I wrote was bullshit, but I can't help that.  I can see why someone would tell some terrible story to get attention and sympathy, but that's gonna happen in any group or setting a little.

You really want to see some fake and bullshit stories??? go read about someone's miraculous healing or how god told them this or that and watch the stories rollout... omg. 

F 'em.  I told my story.  they can believe it or not, I don't care.  I have the proof but don't feel the need to do so.

If it helps someone who's feeling like they're the only one (which I kinda did for a while) then good.  If not, it felt good to get it off of my chest, and that's really the most important thing to me.

[25YearsLater]

F 'em.  I told my story.  they can believe it or not, I don't care.  I have the proof but don't feel the need to do so.

Indeed. Having been accused of lying by someone on this site, that's very much how I feel.

 

No one from my circle of Christian friends and acquaintances is in any doubt that I'm no longer a believer, which is an irony I find hilarious.

[milesaway]

This upset me SO bad. My story is as real as it gets, and having been on the receiving end of so much crap from xtians, this brought back all sorts of shit I thought I'd put behind me. The guys who posted all those things come off exactly like the smug assholes who felt the need to smack me around and disrespect me at every turn. 

 

The way one of them mocked this place as a 'support group' really offended me. I wouldn't put it past him to apply that same sentiment to an abuse survivors support group. That's basically what he's doing, since some of us here have suffered abuse at the hands of the group that he's a member of. But what do they care? They treat us like shit, then they smear us, and then they wanna be us at the same time. Despicable bastards! 

 

Fuck every man jack of them. I've suffered enough from xtians. I'm done with them. And people wonder why I don't trust them at all anymore. 

[FarflungWanderer]

I remember that the first question my Dad asked the people I studied with when I became a Christian was if it was an honest baptism or whatnot...

[Castiel233]

Nobody would or could make the shit up that we post on this site. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to put themselves through the hell that is deconversion unless you REALLY mean it.

 

This is something my friends and family still don't get. They like to throw around the cheap and easy accusations like;

• they were never true christians
• they are selfish and chasing their own desires
• they didn't like listening to god anymore
• ...

 

I love it when believers say "we are chasing our own desires and don't like listening to God". Give them a list of things God most certainly wants them to be and do from the Bible and watch their faces empty out with fury and hypocrisy