Slaying In The Spirit: How Is It Done?

[SnarkyAntiTheist]

Well you caught me on the Anode vs. cathode end. It's been 20 years plus since I messed with amplifiers in that capacity. As to your mind comments, this makes more sense. I still don't know why in that one particular instance especially, when I thought it wasn't going to happen to me, and my attention was on my fallen wife that it happened. But your AC / DC comments made sense. Perhaps there isn't a parlor trick involved at all. I don't know, I merely hypothesized. Plus I always had the attitude they were hiding something, you know, the guy who does it has his goons around him pretty much all the time. Guess that led me to my perhaps incorrect conclusions there was something else. I still hold out in the I don't know category: I've certainly been moved by music before. But not a bolt to the face as in the two instances I refer to, unpleasant instances, instances I went out of my way to not encounter again, even as a Christian. Whatever it was, perhaps it was different for me, I would certainly not recommend the effects.

 

Take it as one will. But even if the electricity in any form possible is totally dismissable, which is not yet the case, I'm still open to the idea that this is a parlor trick they're pulling somehow -- thinking of a lot of past so-called paranormal experiences where tape loops have subsequently been found in the area to play the tapes of the "ghosts" in the area. The bolt was very different from the warm feeling one can get with music, or even the warm feelings we used to get a long time ago in certain church situations. Though for me these were harder to acquire than for some. This was unambiguously not pleasant, pitched at me at the time as God putting me on the ground to humble me. This having been said after the bolt, not before. I can't for the life of me concoct the experience again to just make it happen with my mind. So I personally can't rule out some kind of parlor trick that used more than power of suggestion. You had all these people joyously, and to me at the time anyway, a bit goofily falling down. The Wife told me the cry She gave was of surprise. But She never described that shock feeling. To Her it was just warm. And for me both times it was uniquely electric. But that's because electricity is my only frame of mind that I could relate it to. Far different from moving music, which gives one a warm feeling in the belly. This was quite an impression in the face.

 

I understand how many are going to say I must be just making it all up, as I'd not believe it if I hadn't had that particular experience with it. Again, the effect was done incorrectly if it was supposed to make you want it all over again, as the counterapologists claim. I'm not gonna lie, I'd be beside myself with glee to at some point encounter what that damn trick was though. I know some of you will never buy what I'm saying as I indicated it, not the warm feeling from music but something I felt seemed to be electrical in nature, and not pleasant. I would have my own private glee at finding out just how that man pulled it off. He was rather an egotistical type -- something I didn't like about him at the time even.

 

Obviously I have my own opinions on what causes this sort of thing. I sincerely doubt there is any real electricity in use in any way similar to what we've discussed. If there's something else? Science definitely doesn't know about it. I tend very strongly to trust science, which is why I figure that science will explain my own "paranormal" experiences at some point in time. 

 

As for these faith healers and such... Snake oil salesmen and they disgust me. Wouldn't trust one as far as I could throw one.

[Margee]

We give our minds to other people. We let other's control us. It's the power of suggestion and if you are naive, you can be a victim of it. I was until i understood to be very careful about what people were actually suggesting. When I was naive, i went 'down' under the 'spirit' many times. It wouldn't happen today now that my eyes are open......

[SnarkyAntiTheist]

We give our minds to other people. We let other's control us. It's the power of suggestion and if you are naive, you can be a victim of it. I was until i understood to be very careful about what people were actually suggesting. When I was naive, i went 'down' under the 'spirit' many times. It wouldn't happen today now that my eyes are open......

 

This.

[Leo]

Margee, did it ever feel unpleasant? When you went down under the spirit, was it ever a strike to you? Did you feel rubbery afterwards? Perhaps because it was unpleasant and because I already thought this guy was some kind of egotist, maybe my "open to suggestion" included being more open to the idea of some props involved than I should have been. I've already admitted that I would then, and still would, be pretty gloating about finding their little trick out and exposing it, props included.

I notice nobody who admits to going "down under the spirit" admits to it being unpleasant. Not even the Baptists and others who are still Christians but skeptics admit to this.

Tongues, by contrast, were not unpleasant. Goofy? Yes. I frequently wondered about their authenticity even as a Christian, even though I could practice those.

 

 

So I was wrong about the Fox Sisters, but the prank was in fact discovered: It was them cracking their knee and toe joints:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_sisters

 

I understand that the suggestion dogmatists aren't going to like exposure of props any more than the evangelical fundamentalists. But lots of snake oil salesmen have used props of sorts in the past, and exposing props makes a far more conclusive case against them than mind matter mumbo jumbo which is merely another dogma that requires we cling tightly to belief in suggestion, including talking about warm fuzzies when clearly my case was about an unpleasant experience.

 

Certainly I agree about the taser situation: You see those deployed and people are writing on the ground in obvious pain. Mine wasn't pain: It wasn't like being full of biting ants. It was an unpleasant jolt. Unpleasant enough that I was forthwith motivated to go out of my way to stay away from having that experience again.

 

I definitely agree that when we're more naïve about things, we can be talked into stuff like speaking in tongues, or having the feelings associated with some spiritual experiences, because we're supposed to feel those. I know ex-Mormons who faked the burning in the bosom in order to become Mormons, and a few who actually say they felt the sensation because they really wanted it, had the situation described to them over and over until they could make themselves do it. But nobody told me about a bolt to the face, nor did they tell me it was supposed to be unpleasant. They said the opposite, all this stuff about a warm glow, some people laughing, which is even easier to explain since once one person starts others start laughing. Especially if someone snorts. Also I lacked the visual cues being blind. That's probably why I never fully was able to get into the whole healing situation, the theatrics were lost on me and when I asked for an explanation I was merely given the uncredible "shut up and believe it" explanation. So there were parts missing to the stereotypical dogma about suggestibility. I should have had a pleasurable experience like all the rest of them had. Unless they're lying and I'm not, or, as some presumably think on here, that I'm lying and it was really pleasant and fun.

 

There are physical props that snake oil salesmen use in various contexts, and often finding that stuff out can be instructive. A violation like this in any other context would have probably been investigated. Only in this context do we dogmatically write it off as one's imagination, which is pretty much what suggestibility is. Only they weren't suggesting an unpleasant experience. And at the time, my attention was on my Wife who had fallen, after crying out, what She later said was surprise, but I had no way of knowing at the time.

 

I'm not willing to cling to some dogma that it's electricity, that was merely a hypothesis at best, one I at least had the honor to admit has a lot of holes. However those touting suggestion / my own imagination have always diverted to the alleged warm feelings others claimed to get, never really acknowledging something unpleasant. It was unpleasant enough that had it happened to my daughter and she described the same experience, even as a Christian, I would have done something about it, legally or otherwise. To my knowledge, she has not had any such encounters, though, like many, she has had crying type experiences during their praise and worship, something I found that stuff boring to listen to. I obviously believed in God and spirits then, and that will discredit me to some. A bit like a woman getting raped in a short skirt in Texas, I suppose.

 

But I'm still pretty convinced there's something physical involved, even though I'd completely dismiss my underwhelming hypothesis that it was something electrical.

Coming into contact with a prop would do more good than rewriting the experiences to edit out the unpleasantness and then double down on the receiving participants by claiming it was suggestion.

They've now linked some spiritual mania to something as simple as ergot rye mold, something far more plausible than just deciding for sake of dogma that the participants must necessarily have been making it up. They were unknowingly subjected to a hallucinogenic.

 

Hans, the Talking Horse, was proven a fake, but not because everyone was hypnotized into thinking he was real, but because the horse was doing an actual trick. Just not the trick the farmer thought it was.

 

Alleged aura photographs have been shown to be complete fakes. Countless things have been proven to be fakes, without once having to take a dogmatic shot at the participants, or disbelieve their experiences.

 

So, for some, there has to be some kind of mechanism to produce a decidedly unpleasant experience, one that is counter to the narrative at play. For some, they're just "being a sport" to get the guy to shut up. And for some, it's probably warm and good feeling because they want it to be so.

These three cannot have the same causative. A formua that says x = 1 and x = 2 and x = 3 doesn't make any sense. In short, it requires faith.

Power of suggestion is supposed to produce results that complete the narrative, not counter it. Unless there's a bug in the power of suggestion.

 

 

And no, Snarky, I've made no suggestion that one could charge a cell phone cable with just their hands. Only that if someone claims to be able to produce electricity with their mind or body a cell phone charging cable takes little enough power they ought to be able to do so. That accusation was a double back on me, just to uphold the dogma about suggestion Obviously if I thought I could produce electricity with my hands, I'd be proud to demonstrate it, and charge a device. Which I can't, never was the one making that positive claim, only asserting that one who could produce electricity ought to be able to. And that was in response to someone saying they might be able to produce electricity.

 

 

Suggestion either works with the narrative, or against it. Not both. I can't be some kind of snake oil salesman telling everyone they're going to feel healthy and happy only to have them feeling sick and want to get away. Either that or suggestion works the exact opposite from the way the suggestion faith dogmatics are claiming, including those that deliberately misquoted me to uphold the narrative. Suggestion either works with the narrative or against it. It can't simultaneously do both.

 

It'll be a great day when the prop is finally exposed, at least the prop that made the experience distinctly unpleasant for some of us. It won't answer those who had an experience that went along with the narrative, that can be explained by suggestion. But only people who are dedicated to belief in the power of suggestion would claim that an experience running against the narrative would be itself suggestion. That's like those people who claim positive thoughts make things happen, but even sillier, because they'd be also claiming that positive thoughts could work against you.

 

So I'm sorry I've gone on so long, I had tried not to think about it a lot based on the experience, for years. So the TL DR version:

 

- I was at one of their meetings, and like many Christians, dubious about the claims.

 

- I witnessed my wife cry out as She went down on the ground, but Her saying from the ground that She was okay, I was still unsure.

 

- While I was turned somewhat towards Her, the person started his speech / prayer and his hands apparently went up in front of my face.

 

- It *felt* like I was struck by an unpleasant but not painful strong bolt, a strong tingling in the face and being pushed back to the ground.

 

- Man in question stands over me asking if I am still skeptical, or did I now believe he could do this.

 

- I respond that I believe he can do it. (duh, I'm on the ground).

 

- I'm completely rubbery and can't rise, but fully cognizant of my surroundings and could hear the whir of some machinery I later learned was a camera and people walking around.

 

- There were, and are, a great many aspects I could not technically verify because I have no usable vision at all: dubious at the Wife's cry when She went down on the ground, I could not see anyone's faces.

 

- Beforehand I thought people were just dropping limp like an actor's fall, and that it wouldn't happen to me unless I was going to "be a sport about things" for the guy.

 

- The narrative I had been told by those who practiced regularly was about some kind of warm sensation, "glory" and other religious ambiguously positive terms.

 

- I experienced none of those.

 

Now, either suggestion acts upon narrative, in which case Her experience would be based on suggestion, or suggestion counters narrative in which case my experience was based on it and Hers was not. . The result of something cannot be both plus and minus simultaneously. Hence my bias towards there being a physical prop involved at least for some. And unlike some I have fully admitted the holes in my arguments, including that I had one sense less -- no sight -- to provide information re: the expressions of people all splayed out there, or those who didn't fall at all. Presumably some didn't, I mean. Like many have said, there are those who never have.

 

And the guy's response around me was one you might expect of someone who was afraid of being ratted out. I didn't go up there and say "You can't knock me over buddy," but after I went down he asked me and nobody else if I was still skeptical, followed by the rhetorical question of whether I believed he could do it. Again, those people, or at least that guy, had guards. I forget what word they used for it, but a few guys who were always bodyguarding the guy. And this is supposed to be me, under the power of suggestion, getting something totally counter to the narrative that the power of suggestion was claiming it was supposed to.

 

Since I don't have enough faith to believe in a null set, but do have the honor to completely dismiss electricity as a mechanism, I can safely continue to assert that more than suggestion is involved. Especially for those whose experiences go against the narrative. Plenty of other salesmen have had their props exposed.

[Margee]

Margee, did it ever feel unpleasant? When you went down under the spirit, was it ever a strike to you? Did you feel rubbery afterwards? Perhaps because it was unpleasant and because I already thought this guy was some kind of egotist, maybe my "open to suggestion" included being more open to the idea of some props involved than I should have been.

 

 

 

 

Leo, Pentecostalism puts people in the best mood in the world. I am a highly emotional person so  I was perfect for this brand of christianity. The emotional atmosphere would get the show started. No one ever 'fell out' at the beginning of the service. Sometimes, every once and awhile you would see someone 'fallout' during the service, but mainly they left the big drama for the end of the night.  Our church was huge.....about 1500 people and standing room only some nights. You get the right music going and the dancing would begin. We would twirl around and lift our hands and praise god with everything in us. I remember very well the first night I attended with my best friend. I thought they were all crazy but something enticed me. As crazy as it looked, I loved the high emotion and the hand clapping and marching around the church. People were crying and laughing. I was very amused at it all. The church I was born and brought up in was so boring and this was sooo exciting.

 

When the service was beginning to end, another one would start up and you might be there until midnight depending on the spirit of the lord. This is when we would go down to the alter and confess our sins and cry before the lord and get his forgiveness and healing. They would always have someone behind you to catch you if you fell. A pastor would come along and scream in your ear and tell you to receive everything that the lord has for you. At this point, emotional people like me would be in a frenzy almost!!  He'd touch me and I'd go down like a rock. Then of course you would lay there and begin speaking in tongues. You might laugh, you might cry. But for me....it was never unpleasant. I was being blessed by the lord and I adored every second of it. I was always sorry when the service ended. It was like a big party!!

 

This was my first church......This all took place right down there at that alter. I used to sit on the upper right hand side, upper section, first row, so we had lots of room to dance. Even bringing up this picture triggers me a little to want to return for one more service...just to see how I would feel?? Second picture...right hand side is exactly what it used to look like in the evening services.

 

 

 

 

[Leo]

Margee, sorry for the triggering.

 

Ah, so you never had a negative experience or the unpleasant bolt sensatinsensation. Well, the preachers yelling in your ear has got to be unpleasant, I remember those. And often swore I would never admit I'd had a headache to one of those. Seemed torturous to me.

 

Yes, the dancing. Some really got into it. I don't know why I didn't. And you're right it rarely happened at the beginning.

 

But, it always took the man with guards around him to make it happen. Absent the man and those, and we have no crashing falling people. At least that was what I experienced.

 

Anyway thanks Margee for your answers and I apologize for the trigger situation.

[Margee]

Margee, sorry for the triggering.

 

Ah, so you never had a negative experience or the unpleasant bolt sensatinsensation. Well, the preachers yelling in your ear has got to be unpleasant, I remember those. And often swore I would never admit I'd had a headache to one of those. Seemed torturous to me.

 

Yes, the dancing. Some really got into it. I don't know why I didn't. And you're right it rarely happened at the beginning.

 

But, it always took the man with guards around him to make it happen. Absent the man and those, and we have no crashing falling people. At least that was what I experienced.

 

Anyway thanks Margee for your answers and I apologize for the trigger situation.

Don't you worry about me getting triggered my friend. That's why I still like to talk about this with all of you. I can still get mad and a little triggered when I write. The whole lie and betrayal of christianity makes me so angry. I am actually thinking about writing a book about  my experiences.

 

Hug

[yunea]

Margee, you described it so well, so much like how I experienced it. I too have been to services where there were people to catch you when you fell... and it was like partying, with the dancing and all, happy songs, all that. I guess I'm never going to be that blissfully, naively happy again, completely sure that the biggest, mightiest thing in the universe loves the little ole me enough to touch me. 

 

 

Anyhow, hey, Leo. Earlier during our conversation, I was left with this silly feeling that there was SOMETHING I didn't remember that was very important to this thread. It popped up to my mind today. I guess I took a long time to think of it because there are some things my brain has pushed away in an attempt to escape the memories.

 

There is this phenomenon in hypnotism called Shock induction. Yes it's that suggestion again that I know you're getting tired of hearing, but bear with me a little. It's quick, it can actually can make you fall over, and leave you limp for some time. I'm not going to describe in an open thread how it's done but I can answer a PM. I've had that done to me (and I've done it myself), and it's very, very similar to falling down at church, except it's not emotional in itself, any emotion you feel during it has had to be there already. You just fall, don't get hurt because you're totally relaxed, remain limp for a while, and feel very slow getting up. That is, if no one takes over from there and leads you to deeper trance. 

 

Of course stirring up emotions in people before it, with songs, dancing, group prayer, etc makes the experience very different as you can quite likely imagine. 

 

After having thought of the things said in this thread, I think that what causes people to fall down could be a different combination of things with different people, and there could be actual, natural (as in, not supernatural) energy involved too that some priests can use (but I don't know how it works and wish I did), that I guess does the pain removal. As I said I've managed to temporarily remove other people's pain myself using energy manipulation techniques, and the situations weren't even religious at all, save for me silently praying in my head that jesus would protect me.

 

I don't really believe that there are any actual electrical apparatuses that the priests are using. Scents and such wouldn't be surprising, though - but shock induction doesn't require anything but some right things done in a very quick sequence and some sensitivity to when exactly to do it. 

 

I hope this helped, or at least gave you some potential answers. When I get better and feel distant enough to all the things that messed up my head and get me too emotional to be objective, I do hope to find out more about the connections between falling down, the alleged energies, hypnotism, shock induction etc. Because it is interesting, and having seen so many different sides to it in both religious and non-religious environments, it's something that'll be hard to completely leave behind. I just can't go further into it with this much emotion still in me. 

 

It's been a good talk though. I realised many things through this thread, thanks to everyone, sincerely. I'll blog about this at some point.

[Leo]

Yunea and Margee, thanks and I cannot help but respect your trigger situation now that FreethinkerNZ and others have explained to me what that means. Thought people were pushing each other's buttons, including mine. So now that I know, I want to be very respectful to this when people mention it. I probably have mine, inside and outside of religion, things that make you change how you're feeling drastically and out of proportion to a situation where most aren't like this.

 

Anyway Yunea, Shock induction. Interesting. So this could be an unpleasant experience, or a trick a man might pull on someone else who was dubious about the effects, perhaps, which could explain his manner towards me being very different than all the other warm glowies.

 

I especially appreciate you both, because, I don't really know what words to use so I'll say it like this: with your situations responding to something like this thread had to cost you. I know it brought up feelings in myself too, since most don't believe that someone can have a distinctly unpleasant experience in that falling down situation. As evidenced by others on this thread.

[yunea]

Yes, Leo, it sounds to me like the others waiting in the line were so ready and willing to experience the falling down that the priest didn't need to do much, but he pulled a trick on you because he saw you weren't the same way and wanted to show a doubter. Which is very interesting when I think of it. He should have known that if you're not happy beforehand, it isn't going to make you feel happy, just limp. I do suppose that it can be unpleasant too.

 

Don't worry about me, as I said it's been a good thread. Not an easy one, but it's put many thoughts in my head into better order.