Ex-Christian, But Not Atheist? What Am I?

[NoOne]

First of all, thanks so much to Margee for letting me into this forum <3 it means a lot and I appreciate it 

Okay, so I have a bit of time right now so I'll post some questions...

 

Ever since I've deconverted, I've considered myself an agnostic atheist. I take on the label of agnostic fully, because I don't have complete and irrefutable knowledge that a god does or doesn't exist. I also know agnosticism is not an actual position of belief and that it's meant to be inclusive other positions (of belief), so you can't ride on that title by itself. But I've been more reluctant to take on the label of atheist (though I said I was on my new Twitter account and now all my new followers are atheists lol). The reason I'm more uneasy about atheism is because I have been dwelling on it a lot, and I don't think I'm a true atheist. Let me explain my beliefs.

 

***Just to let you know, some of my views may differ from those of the other ex-Christians here. I have no intention to offend anyone.***

I don't believe in a god. I don't think science really supports the idea or existence of a god, and with the world we live in and concepts such as hell or an eternal punishment, I don't think any god is that moral or just. I do believe in a higher spirit that is greater than all of us and that connects us all. I do believe that the similar aspects within or of humans are greater and matter more than the differing aspects (we all bleed red and are the same on the inside, therefore race or skin color doesn't matter; we all want to be loved and cared for, therefore sexuality or sexual orientation doesn't matter; we all want to find truth and purpose in this world, therefore different ideologies or religions don't matter; etc.). I do believe in an afterlife because the world is so complicated and complex that it just can't end after this; there must be an explanation or reason why we are here and in the afterlife, instead of getting punished or getting rewarded, we'll get an answer and interact with others of who had similar lives. But it's not heaven or hell.....and there are levels to this afterlife based on how you were in this life and how you treated those around you. Just heaven and hell makes no sense because I'm definitely not worthy enough to share an afterlife with Mother Teresa but I'm definitely not as bad as, say, Hitler. Hitler would be in the lowest level, Mother Teresa in the highest, and I would go somewhere in between for example. I see a fair justice system like that. I believe in a system like karma. I don't consider it to be karma, but it's just like karma. And it comes back eventually later on in life. Good comes back to you because you gave it, or bad comes back to bite you in the ass for whatever you did. I do believe in a purpose that was already given to us, and we modify it based on our dreams, problems, ambitions, and talents.

 

So there. It's long but all what I think now. A lot of it contradicts or comes into conflicts with modern atheism. So I don't think I can just use it so loosely now. Does anyone know what I am? Or do you have any ideas or comments on my beliefs? Anything is appreciated. Sorry I know it's long, I always do this thanks everyone and have a beautiful day

[Deva]

Glad you are here. I don't believe in God either but there is something in us that extends beyond us that is eternal.  I have called it "the core" in the past, but there are many names for it - the Atman, dharmakya, the buddha-nature, intrinsic awareness, etc...

[Ellinas]

You are... well... whatever you want to be.

 

As I've said elsewhere on these message boards, I would these days call myself an Hellenic pagan.  But that is just a label of convenience, that probably hides as much as it reveals and certainly doesn't tell a whole story.  Do I believe in god?  Well, sort of.  Some sort of basic principle of life that may or may not have personality of some description.  I choose to believe this because it makes sense to me.  I may be completely wrong.  Does that, in turn, make me an agnostic?  Well, literally, perhaps so.  I have no knowledge.  I do not "know" if there is a god.  I merely have made a choice to take on a certain belief not knowing if it represents reality and not caring if anyone agrees with me.  And I would not call myself an agnostic, because I have made that choice.  What then is the value to me of the term "agnostic"?  I am, I am not.  Does it matter?  "Hellenic pagan" at least pinpoints my interest in the history and mythology of the east Mediterranean and describes the way I visualize the idea of deity for personal purposes.  To reconstructionists, however, that is probably heresy.  So, my use of that terminology is purely a personal estimation of the easiest possible label to be comprehensible to others.

 

May I make a suggestion?  I may be way off course here, but I wonder if there is any advantage to you in looking for a label, or at least for objective clarity on a label, for yourself.  Are you looking for a sense of "certainty" or of "belonging"?  I've found the more I think about these matters, the less the certainty, the more clearly I belong to no group beyond my little society of one.  And, increasingly, I find that is a good place to be.  Be what you want to be, believe what makes sense to you and call yourself whatever - if anything - you feel fits.  You will find some common ground with various people of various persuasions - accept that, but be wary of being lumped together with them in any categorization.

 

The names really don't matter.

[Joshpantera]

Yes, Human is correct in suggesting that you may want to try and make sense of our other thread and see what type of response will arise. Because you seem to be going in directions that others here have gone in. 

 

I think by your description you're something of a non-theistic pagan of sorts, for lack of a better term. Your lack of belief in God makes you straight away atheistic, which means not theistic or not God belief in the most literal sense. But you're spiritual. There are a variety of spiritual atheists or spiritual non-theists in the ex-C community so I'm sure you'll have fun comparing ideas. The main point here is acknowledging that atheism isn't bad a thing and that it can apply to spiritual minded people as well as completely non spiritual people. It's not necessarily bad in either case. It's just the lack of positive belief in Gods. You're certainly an agnostic atheist and perhaps agnostic spiritual atheist (ASA) may be the best description based on what you've shared on this thread so far. 

[Margee]

Sweetie, you are many things. Too many to put labels on!!  Don't force yourself to have any labels right now. Think of yourself as an open-minded freethinker! It takes all the pressure off to be 'something' or prove something. When you are an open-minded freethinker......you can think things through with your own open mindedness. And you can change it anytime you want!!

 

Hug

 

[Deidre]

I read something recently and it really resonated with me...''we are the journey.'' Meaning, maybe we never reach a final destination, maybe we are always in wonder, always seeking...and that's ok. As humans, we have a need to label ourselves atheist or theist or deist or agnostic or whatever...and really, it can cause a lot of inner turmoil. I know this from my own experience of abandoning Christianity. ''We are the journey'' means that our lives aren't to be labeled, but rather we are to just keep our minds and hearts open to the possibilities. I understand your uneasiness, and wish you good things. ((hugs))

[Thurisaz]

What D said... labels help categorize things and people but the labels aren't all they are.

 

As I see it, as long as someone doesn't go the morontheist route, denying reality in favor of some dusty book'o'bullshit, I don't care much what one does or doesn't believe in. So MGG, whatever you consider yourself... to paraphrase that Wiccan statement... if you harm no one due to your belief, just believe whatever you want

[NoOne]

Wow, so many responses already! Thanks everyone

Human, thanks for the incessant kindness and support you show me on these forums And to answer your question, I don't think. I see the afterlife as something that's not temporary but I don't know if it would be permanent. I don't think we necessarily review our lives and try to change or "repent" for what we did that was wrong. I do think it's more of an interaction than an reward or punishment, an eye-opener to what we didn't see or realize in our lives.

And the Mother Teresa thing...wow, I knew Gandhi was bad, but Mother Teresa?! Eye-opener, omg...

 

So do you guys think I could "pass off" as a spiritual agnostic-atheist OR I could be labelless and focus more on spirituality than actual belief? Because that's what I'm getting.

[florduh]

So do you guys think I could "pass off" as a spiritual agnostic-atheist OR I could be labelless and focus more on spirituality than actual belief? 

 

Hmmm. I think people should believe things that have evidence indicating that they are actually true, and they should not worry about personal labels.

 

If I identify with my proper label of "atheist" most people still don't understand what that means anyway. They assume I'm just mad at (their) god or that I think I can prove that (their) god doesn't exist. Labels are virtually useless, and you will likely go through several nuances and perhaps complete changes over time.

[Ellinas]

I'd steer clear of labels as far as possible.  Matter for you, of course.

[Geezer]

I'm sort of in the same boat as the original poster. I refer to myself as non-religious rather than atheist. Just using the word atheist is often interpreted as a militant attack on a believers faith. It is too often viewed as an invitation to a argument disguised as a debate. I do my best to avoid discussions involving both religion and politics for obvious reasons.

 

Acknowledging that you are not religious seems to be benign enough so as not to be interpreted as a challenge to anyone's faith. I have examined enough data to be convinced all religions, especially revealed religions, are man made as are their sacred text. Therefore, I'm not interested in religion.

 

I don't see myself as being a spiritual person anymore either, at least not in the way most people seem to be defining spirituality. I'm agnostic in the sense that I just don't know, but I have not fully closed the door on there being "more" to our existence than what we have thus far identified. Cosmologist and other scientists have discovered to many "invisible" mysteries and energies in the universe to say there isn't an energy, force, influence or something akin to the "force" in the Star War movies that has some kind of influence in the lives of us living creatures.

 

I assume we have all experienced stuff that is inexplicable, creepy, or weird. The feeling of a presence of something else. Not getting on a airplane because something was telling you not to. And then the plane crashes and everyone on board is killed. You sense the need to slow your car down on an open street and suddenly a car comes out of a blind spot and a collision is avoided because you slowed down.

 

That kind of stuff happens all the time and we all know it and probably have experienced it. Coincidence? Probably. I remember a couple of years ago attending the funeral of a family member. I was one of her favorites in our family. I remember standing next to the casket just before it was to be lowered into her grave and thinking to myself, Moggie, if you still exists give me a sign. At that exact second a strong breeze whipped up in an otherwise perfectly calm day. It only lasted a couple of seconds and then it was gone. I smiled and my wife, the deceased lady was her favorite aunt, asked what are you smiling about? I smiled back and said, "Nothing, just remembering Moggie."  Coincidence? "Almost" certainly it was.

[Orbit]

I'm an atheist towards all mythical/literal gods, but I'm a panentheist, making me a theist of sorts--just not of any biblegod-type entity. I don't worry too much about it, and I don't think you should either. If your spiritual beliefs work for you it doesn't matter what you call them.

[Leo]

I agree with everyone else here, just take the journey, discover what you can and embrace what works for you.

 

However, I disagree with most of the fashionable people re: labels. Labels, or rather words that describe things, are something our ancestors of 50 thousand years ago figured out how to use. I will agree, like most, that misapplied labels, or ones that are just stuck on you by other people, aren't helpful at all. But finding out certain words and phrases can only lead you to do more reading. There are a whole group of various systems: pagan, pantheist, panentheist, all kinds. I agree you sound something like a nontheistic pagan. All I would say is, if you find a word that seems to fit, go check it out and see if it does. Only you will know if it does or doesn't. Usually the "What am I?" kinds of questions are just another way of asking some really good questions and getting thoughts going.

 

All the best,

 

Leo

[DayLight]

I think that labes are desired by humans  because they are symbolic of belonging to a group.  As social creatures we like to belong. 

 

An Atheist in my opinion is just as religious as a religious person but an atheist believes the opposite ideas about reality.  So an atheist is CONVINCED that he knows that there is no god even though there is no proof one way or the other.

 

Just like religious people believe that there IS a god even though there is no proof.  Plus religious people worship this god.

 

An agnostic is someone that can't really believe firmly in anything.  His mind sees too many possibilities to just settle on one.

 

Spiritual people have a belief system that they go by.  And it usually involves some sort of steps or rituals.  Like they would try to meditate by using certain steps.    There is an air of things being sacred for them. Like Gaia, mother Earth is somehow sacred.  Or the trees are... and stuff like that.  Or talking to their spirit guide is considered somehow... an activity that is to be respected, held in esteem, be sacred somewhat. 

 

A non spiritual person could also medidate, but he would just call it simply - imagining or day dreaming.

 

So I am not sure what label I have either.  I definitely believe in some invisible (aka "spiritual" things), but I am not religious about any of it. It's just life.  It's as sacred as I am.  Which makes it not sacred.  Because to make something sacred is to put it above yourself, as though somehow it's more important than you are.  Or so I think...

[♦ ficino ♦]

An Atheist in my opinion is just as religious as a religious person but an atheist believes the opposite ideas about reality.  So an atheist is CONVINCED that he knows that there is no god even though there is no proof one way or the other.

 

[snip]

 

An agnostic is someone that can't really believe firmly in anything.  His mind sees too many possibilities to just settle on one.

Hi DayLight, welcome. As an atheist, I am not convinced, even in lower case letters (heh heh), that I know there is no god. That there is no god is my best conclusion, based on what I see and have experienced and learned. I call myself an atheist because, as you say above, it seems a cop-out to say I'm agnostic when I am living as though there is no god.

 

I'm much happier and better adjusted than when I was a Christian. That's one thing.

 

Your description of an agnostic reminds me of the "Perceiver" in Myers-Briggs! I always scored Judger when I took forms of that test. I wonder how much of the different is personality.

[florduh]

An Atheist in my opinion is just as religious as a religious person but an atheist believes the opposite ideas about reality.  So an atheist is CONVINCED that he knows that there is no god even though there is no proof one way or the other.

 

Your opinion doesn't line up with reality or a dictionary.

[Joshpantera]

I think that labes are desired by humans  because they are symbolic of belonging to a group.  As social creatures we like to belong. 

 

An Atheist in my opinion is just as religious as a religious person but an atheist believes the opposite ideas about reality.  So an atheist is CONVINCED that he knows that there is no god even though there is no proof one way or the other.

 

Just like religious people believe that there IS a god even though there is no proof.  Plus religious people worship this god.

 

An agnostic is someone that can't really believe firmly in anything.  His mind sees too many possibilities to just settle on one.

 

Spiritual people have a belief system that they go by.  And it usually involves some sort of steps or rituals.  Like they would try to meditate by using certain steps.    There is an air of things being sacred for them. Like Gaia, mother Earth is somehow sacred.  Or the trees are... and stuff like that.  Or talking to their spirit guide is considered somehow... an activity that is to be respected, held in esteem, be sacred somewhat. 

 

A non spiritual person could also medidate, but he would just call it simply - imagining or day dreaming.

 

So I am not sure what label I have either.  I definitely believe in some invisible (aka "spiritual" things), but I am not religious about any of it. It's just life.  It's as sacred as I am.  Which makes it not sacred.  Because to make something sacred is to put it above yourself, as though somehow it's more important than you are.  Or so I think...

 

This is a clean sweep of mostly incorrect generalities. 

 

But yes, humans seem to want to belong to some type of group. It's just that you've misrepresented not only atheism but spirituality and meditation in the process of trying to make your initial, and valid point. 

[DayLight]

 

An Atheist in my opinion is just as religious as a religious person but an atheist believes the opposite ideas about reality.  So an atheist is CONVINCED that he knows that there is no god even though there is no proof one way or the other.

 

Your opinion doesn't line up with reality or a dictionary.

 

I think dictionary supports my point. Here is the definition from a dictionary:

 

a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

 

and this is from Wikipedia:

 

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.^[1][2] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities.

[DayLight]

 

I think that labes are desired by humans  because they are symbolic of belonging to a group.  As social creatures we like to belong. 

 

An Atheist in my opinion is just as religious as a religious person but an atheist believes the opposite ideas about reality.  So an atheist is CONVINCED that he knows that there is no god even though there is no proof one way or the other.

 

Just like religious people believe that there IS a god even though there is no proof.  Plus religious people worship this god.

 

An agnostic is someone that can't really believe firmly in anything.  His mind sees too many possibilities to just settle on one.

 

Spiritual people have a belief system that they go by.  And it usually involves some sort of steps or rituals.  Like they would try to meditate by using certain steps.    There is an air of things being sacred for them. Like Gaia, mother Earth is somehow sacred.  Or the trees are... and stuff like that.  Or talking to their spirit guide is considered somehow... an activity that is to be respected, held in esteem, be sacred somewhat. 

 

A non spiritual person could also medidate, but he would just call it simply - imagining or day dreaming.

 

So I am not sure what label I have either.  I definitely believe in some invisible (aka "spiritual" things), but I am not religious about any of it. It's just life.  It's as sacred as I am.  Which makes it not sacred.  Because to make something sacred is to put it above yourself, as though somehow it's more important than you are.  Or so I think...

 

This is a clean sweep of mostly incorrect generalities. 

 

But yes, humans seem to want to belong to some type of group. It's just that you've misrepresented not only atheism but spirituality and meditation in the process of trying to make your initial, and valid point. 

 

Humans always have different opinions about stuff.  Who is to say that I misrepresented stuff?  I guess we would have to take a poll and majority wins, although majority doesn't always intuitively understand things.  We would have to ask philosophers.  Then the decision may be closer to the truth. 

[Joshpantera]

Atheism = a / not + theism / God belief.

It simply means some one who lacks positive belief in the existence of gods. You're surrounded right now by many spiritual atheists in this sub-forum.

What you're talking about is anti-theism. The polar opposite belief system. It involves belief, whereas atheism is a lack of positive belief. This has been argued across the board around here. The atheist organizations are dead set against Christians trying to control how atheism is defined and have taken measures to try and counter incorrect information circulating around about atheism.

There's nothing religious about atheism. Because religion is squarely about positive belief and atheism is the lack of any positive belief. Like I was saying this site is informative and most members are well versed in where this type of argument leads in the end. It boils down to belief in Gods or an absence of belief in Gods. 

[DayLight]

Atheism = a / not + theism / God belief.

 

It simply means some one who lacks positive belief in the existence of gods. You're surrounded right now by many spiritual atheists in this sub-forum.

 

What you're talking about is anti-theism. The polar opposite belief system. It involves belief, whereas atheism is a lack of positive belief. This has been argued across the board around here. The atheist organizations are dead set against Christians trying to control how atheism is defined and have taken measures to try and counter incorrect information circulating around about atheism.

 

There's nothing religious about atheism. Because religion is squarely about positive belief and atheism is the lack of any positive belief. Like I was saying this site is informative and most members are well versed in where this type of argument leads in the end. It boils down to belief in Gods or an absence of belief in Gods. 

I talked to some that I thought were atheists (because they deny the existence of a god) and they sounded so convinced that there is no god that I decided that atheists or very scientifically minded people are religious in their conviction.  But in reality, maybe these people should have a different label?   Who decided what label to give to which group of people?  We know that people almost never agree.  So there would be some which agree with the label and some that wouldn't. 

[florduh]

This is why I avoid labels in real life. If I identify as an atheist, which is accurate since I have found no compelling evidence that would lead to a belief in any gods, people invariably make incorrect assumptions and want to add to the simple definition. Everyone seems bent on labeling themselves and others in a way that describes their position in relationship to a model of reality put forth by theists and those holding other beliefs in some invisible and undetectable supernatural realm. I refuse to allow such beliefs to be the standard against which everyone must be compared and contrasted. You might as well try to define me and everyone else based on whether we believe in shape shifting alien lizards.

[Orbit]

I talked to some that I thought were atheists (because they deny the existence of a god) and they sounded so convinced that there is no god that I decided that atheists or very scientifically minded people are religious in their conviction.  But in reality, maybe these people should have a different label?   Who decided what label to give to which group of people?  We know that people almost never agree.  So there would be some which agree with the label and some that wouldn't.

You seem to be using the word "religious" here in a way that muddies the issue. Why not simply say that some atheists, particularly what we call "strong atheists" that have strong convictions about the rightness of their position, much the same as religious people do. There, solved it. Most atheists, btw are weak atheists, who simply lack belief in gods but do not deny the possibility that there is one. They simply say "I have no evidence for gods". They don't say "There are no gods"--that's the "strong" atheist. And if they say "I am against religion in general, and find it to be harmful" they are anti-theists.