I'm Confused As Hell.

[Ellinas]

Masquerade - I may not be understanding you, but you seem to be saying that the practice of ritual somehow points to the reality of the entity invoked or honoured in that ritual.

 

I could, had I the time and interest, create a ritual to honour Minnie Mouse.  I could probably work into it various so called "occult" references.  I could arrange for it to be conducted in suitably atmospheric, bizarre, even threatening circumstances.  I may well persuade some others to join in the ritual - even use it as a sort of rite of passage in some secret Disney society.

 

Does that mean that you would then consider Minnie Mouse a real dark force?

 

And, in case you think this reductio ad absurdam could never occur - I have been informed of Chaos Magic rituals in which such as the Loony Toons character Taz was invoked.

 

I don't understand why people doing strange or silly things in a ritual setting suggests to you any necessary objective danger.

 

Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

[Joshpantera]

 

The main thing is that there isn't any significant evidence in favor of Satan. Least of all the Bohemian Grove or secret societies and Satanists. Belief in something doesn't make it real nor do numbers of believers or the authority of those who believe.

 

What is it exactly about the Bohemian Grove that you find so compelling?  

 

The Cremation of Care ceremony, and the denial of those who are confronted about it.

 

 

I honestly found Clinton's response humorous, but as for the rest, these guys seem a bit anxious when confronted.

 

It's embarrassing. These public figures involved in a bunch of very ridiculous shit. They have reason to be ashamed. 

 

But that has no bearing on Satan as real. 

 

It merely shows how stupid some people act. They likely don't even believe Moloch is real. Another thing is how do we get to associating Moloch of Canaan with the Jewish Satan or Lucifer? Let's look at Moloch and see how relevant this really is: 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch 

 

As a god worshiped by the Phoenicians and Canaanites, Moloch had associations with a particular kind of propitiatory child sacrificeby parents. Moloch figures in the Book of Deuteronomy and in the Book of Leviticus as a form of idolatry (Leviticus 18:21: "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Moloch"). In the Old Testament, Gehenna was a valley by Jerusalem, where apostate Israelites and followers of various Baalim and Canaanite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6; Jer. 7:31, 19:2–6).

 

 

Nineteenth- and early twentieth-century theories[edit]

Nineteenth-century and early twentieth-century archaeology found almost no evidence of a god called Moloch or Molech.^[15] They also characterized Rabbinical traditions about other gods mentioned in the Tanach as simply legends, and regarded them as raising doubt about what was said about Moloch. They suggested that such descriptions of Moloch might be simply taken from accounts of the sacrifice to Cronus and from the tale of the Minotaur; They found no evidence of a bull-headed Phoenician god. Some identified Moloch with Milcom, with the Tyrian god Melqart, with Ba‘al Hammon to whom children were purportedly sacrificed, and with other gods called "Lord" (Baʿal) or (Bel). These various suggested equations combined with the popular solar theory hypotheses of the day generated a single theoretical sun god: Baal.

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We're associating different mythological characters as if they're the same character, when they aren't. The video I posted about the evolution of Satan shows how in later times people began thinking that different characters were the same character. What these idiots at the grove are doing is playing around with a character mentioned in the Bible who is NOT Satan.

 

So what are we considering any ways? 

 

Are we wondering if the other "Gods" in the Bible are real, like Moloch and Baal? The "Gods" who Yahweh was in competition with? Satan was never a God, so this hasn't even gotten to the point of concerning him yet. This is about the God of Israel vs. a Canaanite God. And the real issue is that Yawheh and these other Gods were simply tribal Gods of the 70 nations. This is very early mythology. The more you understand about Biblical archaeology, textual criticism, and comparative world mythology the less likely it becomes that any of this is real. It's just old mythology being toyed with. 

[masquerade]

zuker12: I've heard some of Todd's recordings, and I'm glad you brought him up. Interesting.

 

Ellinas: I see your point.

 

Joshpantera: I understand the history behind Satan (it still slightly bothers me to capitalize that word...Damned fundie brainwashing) and I see your point about Moloch as well.

 

I greatly appreciate each of your thorough replies. It means a great deal to me.

[Joshpantera]

I understand the suspicion. But the way Christians and conspiracy proponents present this stuff pre-assumes that 1) Satan exists and 2) occult practice means there's a real Satan being worshiped and 3) anything from mythology that seems like Satan, is Satan. 

 

You have to catch them at their presupposition and then the whole thing falls like a house of cards. It's like the issue of God. Let's first establish what a God is and that the God does in fact exist before moving forward. 

[zuker12]

Part 2 or some shit.

 

-Raymond Buckland was supposedly another high witch, apparanently in the council of 13. He taught Todd in witchcraft and I guess anthropology and was supposedly head of anthropology at Columbia University (or maybe Harvard according to later sources such as Bill Schnoebelen). What I could ascertain is that he was never a head of anything except his own Wiccan college. He did have a degree in anthropology, either from King's College School in London, Wimbledon or Cambridge or maybe from the Brantridge diploma mill in Sussex. None of these actually tie to him being a hired professor anywhere. At best, Buckland is described as an amateur anthropologist, mixing his anthropology degree with his study of wicca and occultism. He did lecture at various universities around US, but mainly on wicca and his own teachings from what i could decipher. He is also not listed as lecturing at either Columbia or Harvard Uni... basically a dead end. I suspect he was implicated because he is a very known author on occultism just to gain credibility to the claims being made.

 

-Ayn Rand was a lover of Philippe Rothschild who supposedly ordered her to write Atlas Shrugged as a coded plan for the Satanic takeover of the world... (no matter that they never used this plan since they apparently made a new one which they sent as plain text to Todd). I couldnt find any connection either as lovers or correspondents between Rand and Philippe... Philippes private life and his love affairs are supposedly extremely well documented, but no one can find this connection except in John Todds speeches. (A joke thrown around is that Philippe usually did a lot better regarding his beauty standards...)

 

-He suppossedly led a coven of 65000 witches... and he implicated thousands of more people as being connected to the cult somehow. Some of them would be dupes, true, but the fact that this coven and the whole hierarchy could stay coherent and hidden from hundreds of thousands of active participants is just plain unreallistic.

 

There are other points one could elaborate on, but they are not my field of expertise and require digging into tons of materials to get to the bottom of them. One thing though are the rumours concerning his death and framing; either in 1979, 1994 or 2007. They each create problems for the conspiracy narrative, along with John Todd's unstable character profile.

 

To be continued...

[zuker12]

Part 3

 

-John Todd said he was a member of the Process Church of Final Judgement, where he met Charles Manson. This claim is pretty much spurious, and I didnt even bother to research this, since it's becoming apparent he cant belong to all these millions of organisations at the same time while meeting all the "key people" at the same time... As far as I could ascertain Charles Manson never belonged to this organisation, or was acknowledged into it. He did hold some crudely similar beliefs, like an imminent "end of the world" followed by a new order. He probably took inspiration from them.

 

-Charles Manson. Well this is an oddity and seems rather convoluted. Charles Manson was a disturbed individual with a totally stupid plan or prophecy for the turning up of the world... with really racist overtones. This was called Helter Skelter as some of you may know. It is true he took the inspiration or the name atleast from the Beatles' song... but acvording to a later testimonial from an "ex-Family" member, he held these beliefs even before getting Beatles' The White Album. He thought him having the album was an almost "prophetic" confirmation of his destructive beliefs.

 

-How does the above tie into John Todd? According to Todd, Manson was promised his "revolution" in the prison. He would be getting an army of inmates, convicts, biker gangers etc. To drive his Helter Skelter. They would be armed with military weaponry... everything from small arms to rocket systems. To prove tthis, Todd cites that the US army has reported half of all of their weaponry has been stolen(no idea of a timeframe). This should have raised many alarm bells in the Army and outside of it in American society in general even withoud Todd saying it. This claim is just so absurd that i didnt even research this. It is rather silly to think that no one in the Army reacted to this at any point. Does anyone know if there has ever been a situation in the last 70 years where half of the Army's weapon reserves just vanished? (All in all, the link between Manson and Todd is rather spurious. The only way Manson is related is due to his Beatles and Helter Skelter obsession,, and it just requires pseudohistory and conspiracy goggles to see the connection. Even then, its just hellishly absurd...)

 

One thing that is important to note is that conspiracy belief renders everything remotely questionable, remotely related or odd as part of the conspiracy. I referred to this as "the conspiracy goggles" above. It is not much different than looking for God or Satan and finding these in the small things. In this sense, the conspiracy is given something akin to pseudo-omnipotence or omnipresence. Occam's razor as a tool for heuristics is forgotten totally, and anything that can be interpreted in light of the conspiracy, however remote or unprobable it is, is interpreted as being part of the conspiracy. Simpler more likely explanations are just forgotten.

 

Frankly put, im really rather bored with this conspiracy stuff. It mostly amounts to sensationalism, exaggeration and fear-mongering. Youd think you could find something concrete on these conspiracy sites, but most of it is just copypasting John Todd tape transcripts or Youtube videos or maybe summarizing his claims about some issue. They are trying to apply what John Todd has said by looking into his predictions. Predicting generic things like strikes successfully really doesnt give much credibility to his claims.

[masquerade]

Thanks for the information, zuker12. Much of this I was not aware of. I was familiar with his claims on rock music, but not the rest. Brings back to mind a time in my life when I was so paranoid about his claims and the claims of others that I threw out all my (Christian) music. Changed my mind, bought some of it back, threw it out again. Renounced Christianity, started building a secular collection, and after much money was spent, I went through the phase again. I personally broke each disc and burned the artwork. Rinse and repeat, over and over. It makes me burn inside with anger...toward myself for being so stupid, and towards the loony fucks spreading this propaganda. Hell, I guess I'm one of those loony fucks for buying into it, and having trouble overcoming it even to this day.

 

Religion and conspiracy theories have taken so much from me. They've taken my teen years; the years that should have been the prime years of my life. They've taken my first and potentially last love away from me. They've taken my sanity, peace of mind, mental health, as well as some aspects of my physical health. They've taken thousands upon thousands of dollars away from me. They've taken educational opportunities away from me. Every insecurity I currently have can be traced back to religion in some way...and here I am, contemplating the thought of giving myself over to that cancer, and letting it devour what little is left. I'm such a damned fool. I'm so weak.

 

I've been doing a lot of thinking. The human race needs to get the fuck off its knees. Are we going to continue being so weak that we can't even stand on our own feet? Apparently. I have no hope for this world as a whole. I don't care what they pledge their allegiance to...whether it be gods, devils, governments, whatever.... I renounce them all. I pledge allegiance to no one. 

[zuker12]

Addendum and thoughts

 

-the strikes. Supposedly, following the logic of Todds theory about Atlas Shrugged, multiple strikes would occur that would totally cripple the nation, plunging it into chaos and starving and depriving the people. He references a Coal Miner's strike that was super violent that was going on at the time. The end state would be that "nothing will be moved" at all. I have a very hard time finding any dates for the tape recordings. So i searched and the only actively violent strike was the bituminous coal miners' strike, placing this in the 1977-78 timeframe. Air-traffic controllers, teamsters, longshoremen and truckers were to go on strike. Air traffic controllers and independent truckers did go on strike... but not remotely at the same time. Truckers in 1979 and PATCO in 1981. How i understood this was that they would go on a massive strike together, which would have been devastating ofc. Well, they didnt. This ignores all info about the history of these events and organisations, for example, coal miners held a strike in 1974(?). This was preceded by an earlier conflict of interest leading to a murder conviction in 1971 (IIRC the murder occurred in 1969 or 1970). I dont know the whole history of these events, but this is what i could gather on the topic. The 1974 strike wasnt otherwise violent and generally held to be successful. The implication was though that a mass strike would happen but it didnt. Individual strikes are hardly revolutionary, even if they cause disturbances in daily life. It is only natural to predict these kinds of organisations going on strike if the whole premise hinges on "having all the lights in New York go out", that is, no electricity, fuel, etc. Is delivered. A natural apocalyptic premise has been taken which has been construed by many kooks over the years and is rather easy to purport... and it distorts ones vision on things. ""Reign of terror" tactics have been talked about earlier than the 70s.A lot of "prophetic" value is then lost.

 

Conspiracy apologetics comes into play... the Illuminati had to change their plans because of inside expositions. Why? They had the world on their fingertips. They discredited John. If the world has difficulty believing these tales, why would they not move in?

 

All those who criticize John are just slandering him because they are either brainwashed, evil or dont lead themselves enough in prayer and studying the Word. This is an age-old apologetic used in various situations for explaining why someone doesnt "come over".

 

John Todd is contradictory and sometimes harebrained because of a combination of drugs, demonic possession, and something called "trauma-based mind control". This really tells us nothing... it expects you to believe it first. This is something related to the notorious MK Ultra program. Aside from being held as a waste of money and time and a gross violation of human rights, as far as i know it has been rather unsuccessful. It is shady, yes, but doesnt give us much to go on. The paperwork regarding it has been destroyed, so you can apologetically say that the project was a success and they just said it was a failure. We would need to know the successthe program had, if any. Professional researchers have had a hard time deciphering anything regarding MK Ultra. Someone else might havve delved on this topic, but i know little of it aside from conspiracy theories and rumours. (I think i watched a clip where they drugged up soldiers to increase their combat performance, tho it might have been just a generic training clip with the drugged soldiers report placed on it. Not sure if it was even mk ultra related. Long time...)

 

As a disclaimer, im not a professional skeptic, andam not much interested in conspiracism, aside from trying to figure out all the things i experienced in my past aand what went wrong back then. I am trying to be honest, with myself and everything. I might be getting something wrong. Course, much of this particular conspiracism smacks of "something's not quite right in this alley".

 

Thoughts will be expanded on later...

[florduh]

The human race needs to get the fuck off its knees.

 

Quote of the week.

[Joshpantera]

I went through a lot more of Bohemian Grove vids and related issues like the sex slave problem. So Bush senior is apparently an alleged homosexual pedophile:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_c_guFDD2g

 

And then the graphic testimonies of straight up rape and murder at the Grove, this goes on for several parts:

 

 

This is truly a screwed up situation if true. And for Christians I'm sure it's hard evidence for the involvement of a literal devil. How absolutely evil. How appalling. I totally get why this seems like such compelling evidence for a literal dark force or being. 

 

The only reason that I don't see it that way is because the darkness of mythology is metaphor and allegory. It represents animal tendencies in our psyche. What these men have allegedly done looks like the result of too much power, too much authority, and total abuse of both. Satanism is about satisfying your selfish and self centered desires. For some, that desire is to rape and kill and get away with it! The rush of the whole thing. And I wasn't aware of the allegation that Hunter S. Thompson was filming snuff films about powerful homosexual pedophiles raping, beating, and killing minors. I'm infuriated as hell right now!!! And I'm not even sure if the allegations are true or not. If true then this is absolutely unacceptable on every level. 

 

I've been thinking about this all day. They burn the mock human figure called "care." The priest says that burning "care" frees them to do as they please. So does burning "care" represent burning all of your 'cares' away and basically doing whatever the hell you feel like doing regardless of right or wrong? It sure seems like that's the meaning of the ritual. And on the side lines we probably have at least some of the grover's taking it to the extremes mentioned in the allegations. This is a place to go completely animalistic. I find it disturbing that when given the freedom of action this is what at least some of them do! 

 

You just have to see through the surface level sensationalism of all of this to the fact that it's just rich, powerful, selfish people doing rituals that promote selfishness with no regard for human life outside of their own. This is the very thing I mentioned about the anti-christ earlier. It's the securing of power (6) by becoming the strength, leader, first (1) to secure more power (6). The number of the beast is also the number of man (616 / 666). Man IS a beast of the earth. The shit that was going on with the Greco-Roman sodomites that ran the late period mysteries and Christianity, continued to this very day generation by generation! It's the Catholic Church as much as the secular government officials. Christians aren't wrong there. What the anti-christ represents as the survival of the fittest in nature and the drive towards hierarchy and self importance is something very real and alive in the world. The Caesar's were a perfect example of the principle. But we're not waiting for it to take place or for some anti-christ to rise up in the future, it's been talking place already for thousands of years! These ass raping priests and politicians are the remnant of the same misogynist's 2 and 3 thousand years ago which developed a lot of the myths that are still being played out now.

 

I do feel that the mysteries were originally a simple method of preserving knowledge from the vulgar population that would abuse the power of knowledge if it were not held in secrecy and made public back then. Primitive men, primitive times, called for careful treatment of knowledge. Manly P Hall, an honorary 33rd degree Mason of the Scottish Rite wrote that the old mysteries were held under leadership and discipline. it was an honorable venture and not selfish oriented. It was supposed to be about the betterment and benefit of humanity. And then the mysteries eventually dwindled and fell into the very corruption they were originally set up to guard against! The profane eventually gained access and selfishness entered the arena. That selfish corruption and profanity is what we're facing now in places like the grove. I always got the feeling that Manly P Hall was calling for a resurrection of the old mysteries and reinstatement of unselfish members serving the greater good of humanity. 

 

Not a bad idea in light of the problems we're facing.....

 

The Secret Teachings of All Ages, Manly P Hall.  

 

“There are, however, but few mature minds in the world; and thus it was that the philosophic-religious doctrines of the pagans were divided to meet the needs of these two fundamental groups of human intellect - one philosophic, the other incapable of appreciating the deeper mysteries of life. To the discerning few were revealed the esoteric, or spiritual teachings, while the unqualified many received only the literal, or exoteric interpretations. In order to make simple the great truths of Nature and the abstract principles of natural law, the vital forces of the universe were personified, becoming the Gods and Goddesses of the ancient mythologies....

 

...Many of these ancient cults vanished from the earth without revealing their secrets, but a few have survived the test of ages and their mysterious symbols are still preserved. Much of the ritualism of Freemasonry is based on the trials to which candidates were subjected by the ancient hierophants before the keys of wisdom were entrusted to them. Few realize the extent to which the ancient secret schools influenced contemporary intellects and, through those minds, posterity. 

Robert Macoy, 33°, in his General History of the Free Masons, pays a magnificent tribute to the part played by the ancient Mysteries in the rearing of the edifice of human culture. He says, in part: 

"It appears that all the perfection of civilization, and all the advancement made in philosophy, science, and art among the ancients are due to those institutions which, under the veil of mystery, sought to illustrate the sublimest truths of religion, morality, and virtue, and impress them on the hearts of their disciples. Their chief object was to teach the doctrine of one God, the resurrection of man to eternal life, the dignity of the human soul, and to lead the people to see the shadow of the God, in the beauty, magnificence, and splendor of the universe."

With the decline of virtue, which has preceded the destruction of every nation of history, the Mysteries became perverted. Indescribable practices (such as the Bacchanalia) were introduced, and perversion ruled supreme; for no institution can be any better than the members of which it is composed. In despair, the few who were true sought to preserve the secret doctrines from oblivion. In some cases they succeeded, but more often the Arcanum was lost and only the empty shell of the Mysteries remained.”

[masquerade]

It's difficult for me to process this information. Maybe I lack the intelligence required to see these things for what they are, or maybe my mind is just too clouded to make a proper judgement. Regardless, I'm having a difficult time seeing some of these things as metaphorical or allegory. I'm not saying they aren't; I'm just saying I don't really know what to think, aside from this whole thing being fucked up.

 

Should I look more into the writings of Manly P Hall, or would that be an unwise thing to do for someone in my state of mind?

 

On a random note, I've considered the idea that maybe gods, angels, demons, aliens, etc. are all the same thing. Maybe they're just physical beings from elsewhere in the universe. Or maybe they're other dimensional beings. I used to think the ancient astronaut hypothesis was a decent idea regarding our origins, mostly because of Zechariah Sitchin and the like. Now, I doubt the accuracy of Sitchin's translations of the Sumerian text. Even with that said, I still find aspects of it fascinating. Maybe we're a hybrid species...maybe we're animals mixed with DNA of the gods...or maybe my sci-fi erection is showing. Yeah, yeah... I know. Sounds stupid, right?

[Joshpantera]

Not at all, you're just truth seeking and freethinking. 

 

That all may be true. I've studied that as well. I find it hard to believe that we're the only life in the universe. So I'm open to all of that. It's a matter of hammering down some credible proof. But one thing I have learned is that the ancient aliens show on the history channel greatly distorts mythology in favor of trying to support their alien theories. The character's that they use to lay out alien theories are known as sun gods and the like. While there may have been ancient aliens they are not necessarily where some people have claimed they are, but rather the Gods in question are solar, or lunar, or a planet or constellation. I'm going to post a like to the entire astrotheology series lectures from MP Hall: 

 

 

This is long. I went through it bit by bit years ago. Also, for reading you can read through "The Secret Teachings of All Ages": http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/

 

What I'm linking is not dangerous to you in my view. You have a type of fear of the unknown and by knowing these things about secret teachings of the world I think you can defeat it. Hall stresses the positive side of everything. It's like an academic look into what these beliefs consist of and that's why I ventured into it. My concern was to gain a total overview of world belief and comparison and I had to understand what Theosophy is and what the occult and secret societies are based on just as much as the deconstruction Christianity and Judaism. It's from these studies that I insist that mythology is metaphorical and allegorical, along with Joseph Campbell and Alan Watts. That may not register in your mind without the foundation of understanding the research. But I'm thinking that you need to dive in and face this thing head on. 

 

I'll help in any way, just post your concerns. 

[Deva]

Joshpantera:  As a long time Theosophist (although I do not subscribe to some of their belief system) I am curious if you think the mystery schools were and/or are a reality and what you think of the Masters? 

[masquerade]

I appreciate it. I'll check all that out. Also, I agree about the Ancient Aliens TV show. The idea in and of itself has always resonated with me, but not necessarily the way they portray it. They try too hard to connect dots that probably aren't even there.

[Ellinas]

To be honest, whether you are in a state of mind to follow any specific writing on the esoteric is a matter only you can judge.

 

Also, I have to caution against taking any writer on the esoteric too literally.  Many have the axe of their own  beliefs to grind.  Sorting the nuggets of insight from the pile of proverbial can be laborious.

 

Might I suggest that the place to start is with what you believe?  If you don't know - fine.  But treat all writers as people who know no better than you.  They are a place to search for ideas - but not for certainties.  Those who look for (or claim to have found) ancient riddles and answers are, as far as I've been able to work out, generally seeking what was never there.

[masquerade]

I believe in my own consciousness. Everything else is pure speculation. Plato's allegory of the cave comes to mind.

[Ellinas]

I believe in my own consciousness. Everything else is pure speculation. Plato's allegory of the cave comes to mind.

 

That's a good way of looking at it, from where I'm standing.

[Deva]

 

I believe in my own consciousness. Everything else is pure speculation. Plato's allegory of the cave comes to mind.

 

That's a good way of looking at it, from where I'm standing.

 

I like that too.

[Joshpantera]

Joshpantera:  As a long time Theosophist (although I do not subscribe to some of their belief system) I am curious if you think the mystery schools were and/or are a reality and what you think of the Masters? 

I'm not sure what sort of answer you're looking for. I only know of Theosophy through reading Blavatsky. And MP Hall is lecturing at the Theosophical Society in the links I provided. As far as the mystery schools, below is the sort of thing I have read up on (a fuller context of the quotes I posted previously): http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta04.htm

 

I assume the mystery schools were in function as described. But I'm open to any counter argument that would suggest they may not have existed. 

 

MP Hall gave a very uplifting perspective of what amounts to the occult. I like his tone and I share the notion that Christianity was some type of poor mans mystery's. It was the esoteric teaching turned inside out into exoteric presentation and through that process the dumbing down for the masses. It sort of spread the mystery symbolism out into the world. But without the philosophic understanding no one could profane what it actually represents. Divulging the mysteries to the public was met with capital punishment, something that sheds light on the issue of early persecution. But perhaps the exoteric and denotative interpretation given to the mysteries was eventually considered alright because it didn't completely divulge the content. They may have been a factor with Constantine. I don't know. But it would make sense that it was only allowed to continue because of it's exoteric interpretation of the religious symbols, which is how the pagan mysteries were applied to the general un-initiated public. 

 

Now about the question you asked me about the master's, I assume you're referring to things touched on by Blavatsky. I have a book by her in my personal library and I think she introduced the ascended masters idea to the west through Theosophy. To reference the ascended masters I'll post a link below to see if that's what you mean by it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascended_master

 

Originally presented by Helena P. Blavatsky in the 1870s, the idea of the Masters of the Ancient Wisdom or Mahatmas was adopted by people who at some point had had a connection with the Theosophical movement, such as Alice Bailey, Helena Roerich, and Manly P. Hall. Later on many other organizations, especially in the United States, developed the concept of Ascended Masters, which departs from the theosophical one in several aspects.

It is believed^{[by whom?]} that Ascended Masters are individuals who were formerly embodied on the Earth and learned the lessons of life during their incarnations. They gained mastery over the limitations of the matter planes, balanced at least 51% of negative karma, and fulfilled their Dharma (divine plan). An Ascended Master, in such an understanding, has become God-like and a source of unconditional "Divine Love" to all life, and through the Ascension has united with his or her own "God Self," the "I AM Presence."

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I don't subscribe to belief in literal reincarnation as a fact the way it's portrayed through organized religions. But in a general sense everything recycles. I'm not opposed to reincarnation in different senses other than a strict literal one. But nonetheless, I have independently arrived at conclusions very similar, but not exactly what the ascended masters are thought to believe in:

 

Universal All-Pervading Presence of Life[edit]

Students of the Ascended Master Teachings believe that there is One God, the "Universal All-Pervading Presence of Life", "The One", Who is the Source of all Love, Light, and Love in existence, and that all forms of existence and consciousness emanate from this "Allness of God" - "The One". The Voice of the I AM states "All Life is One" ^[17] and that there is "One Substance, One Energy, One Power, One Intelligence" as the Source of all consciousness and creation.^[18] This Divine Being and Mind is considered to be above and distinct from all creation (in the sense of classical theism), transcending all creation yet interpenetrating all existence. Belief in this one god stresses the essential unity of the spiritual and material components of the universe. God creates through Individualized Identities that have distinct Self-Consciousness and that make up the Spiritual Hierarchy of Creation, yet remain connected through the flow of the "River of Life" and "Lifestream" to the one undivided god — the all in all — the Good — the Source from which all Life, Light, and Love come.(or from which ALL things,yin & yang come. Even what one may perceive as darkness "evil" or "bad" is in someway working out for the Good and toward the elevation and ascension of all men. All things pervading or pouring out from the ONE perfect intelligent mind i.e. God) There is always an uninterrupted Oneness that is maintained with the ALLNESS of God. From the ONE GOD all other realities, including Hierarchy, humanity and the material universe, are the result of a process of emanation.

The Individualized "I AM" Presence[edit]

Adherents of the Ascended Master Teachings believe that each person is an incarnation of an "Individualized Presence" of the "Most High Living God" — the "Mighty I AM Presence" — as part of humans' very nature and being. God (as Life and Love) manifests in the 7 octaves of the created universe through individual Divine Identities. As embodied individuals, we are the outer expression of that God Self in form. It is our unique and immortal True Identity, yet always sharing in the Allness of the ONE GOD.

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I have identified with the whole. I don't go so far as to claim that the whole is a mind, but whatever it is or isn't I know that I am not different from that - tat tvam asi. I understood quite well the eastern enlightenment upon exposure to it. I admit that for all I know that could be due to a process of reincarnation that I currently struggle to believe in, literally. I'm agnostic about it for now. Perhaps that's part of the ascension? In another life perhaps I'd find more certainty, or perhaps in this life I will find more certainty yet to come? I'm open to it, I just haven't found that sort of absolute certainty yet in life.

 

In any case I've understood that what God represents is the totality and that we are an interconnected part of the totality and not something other than the whole itself, incarnate as living beings. Our individual lives are indeed connected to the whole, which, is what the divine represents. In the deepest sense of being we were never born and will never die because at the core we are simply an aspect of an eternal existence which underlies the existence of everything. The descriptions of the ascended masters run very parallel to what I've independently discovered, although they come from an organized approach and I've come purely through intuition without a real structured overlay, or with any levels of initiation known to me as I discovered deeper aspects of spirituality. I think I understand what 5th and 6th level initiation is supposed to convey without ever having taken any initiation at all.

 

It looks like a sort of common sense conclusion based on digesting a total spiritual overview.

 

This part of the quotation is especially interesting because I had been exposed to a story that renders this same basic type of understanding about duality, one that I took right to upon exposure:   

 

Even what one may perceive as darkness "evil" or "bad" is in someway working out for the Good and toward the elevation and ascension of all men. All things pervading or puring out from the ONE perfect intelligent mind i.e. God) There is always an uninterrupted Oneness that is maintained with the ALLNESS of God. From the ONE GOD all other realities, including Hierarchy, humanity and the material universe, are the result of a process of emanation

 

This sounds very much like world affirmation. Joseph Campbell has a story in "Myths of Light: eastern metaphors of the eternal," which covers his trip to India and a search for just the right guru to have his principle mystical discussion with. After asking around with no success he came upon Sri Krishna Menon. He had been a police officer experiencing all of the horrors of life, and yet he was still recognized as a great saint. They were introduced and Menon said, "do you have a question?" 

 

Campbell asked something to the effect of, 'If as we know, all things are Brahman, are this divine energy, why then do we renounce the world? Why do we renounce vise, vulgarity, and ignorance? Why then, as enlightened, do we not see the divine energy shining through the most brutal, the most ignorant, and the most dark?' 

 

Sri Krishna Menon smiled and answered, "for you and me, that is where it is." 

 

And Campbell went on to discuss the affirmation of the world because he'd finally found the right guru to speak with. I recognized this as true straight away upon reading it. Because I had already figured out that my natural mode of thought is pantheistic, after venturing away from monotheism and exploring different beliefs. As a pantheist all is God. Whether consciousness, life, or indescribable God represents the totality. And the totality consists of appearances, the appearance of light and darkness, this and that. Ultimately, the transcendent is the ground of being beneath all duality. I think that's what the quotation about ascended masters belief's is trying to describe. We have world negation, world restoration, and world affirmation as three choices to chose from. World affirmation strikes me as the most enlightened. And apparently so do the ascended masters. The darkness is in some way connected to the light and ultimately everything that's being worked out is to some greater good. I believe that's why God is considered "all good" even though the totality embodies both light and darkness, good and evil. 

 

I don't see this as condoning bad behavior and vulgarity, but simply a state of mind one can enter into when facing the appearance of horror in the world. Maybe sort of like a Bodhisattva figure who joyfully participates in the sorrows of the world after having discovered the base of it "All." 

[Leo]

I think it will also help to define a few things:

What do you mean "dark?" Do you mean "scary?" Do you mean "evil," "manipulative," "destructive," things like that? Yes, those things do exist. I've worked for what I believe was probably a psychopath before. I described it at times as "feeling the presence of evil." Yep, a real live flesh and blood person who could make a zeta male at best, me, feel intimidated and weak and useless often. This same rich male can also talk easily about gender and race privilege, all the while trying to get into the pants of every woman that moves. Do I think there's probably something wrong with his brain? or mind? Oh yes, and I even thought so as a Christian. I leave that to the likes of the aforementioned sociologist to sort out, I'm just a plain old average software guy.

The point is, there is real evil out there, and in there in any infrastructure where people have power over other people. I admit to being just a bit "powerphobic," to be honest. When you feel disempowered, you may even get goose bumps, an evolutionary adaptation that made your ancestors' hair stand on end. Because in understanding power structures, rather than understand some kind of mystical "occultic" evil practice, think of the predator / prey relationship. And remember that predators can often die at the hands of prey, and for many of them they've got a 9 in 10 chance of losing.

 

I personally have thought for years that the Bohemian Grove situation is silly. Ever since the Bushies were said to be into that in the college years. But, there are a lot of things that are scary and unknown. Sleep paralysis might make you think you're seeing demons. And you forcefully trying to name the name of Jesus might make you feel like the deoms went away. You have the goose bumps which are your body's response to stress. All kinds of things for which a Christian might imagine there was "spiritual warfare" going on. Like any good war machine, you tally your wins, try and write off any losses, keep your end in sight, but all after a totally natural phenomenon -- sleep paralysis or its derivatives.

 

Now, let's say there was a "dark force". If you don't believe in a Christian god, then there's no cosmic battle with most humans serving as collateral damage for this war between the greatest entity ever and some lesser being that is still greater than the colaterlal humans. That doesn't exist. So why would messing with this "dark power" do anything at all? Why wouldn't that power just be cranky and tell you to go away? It has no motive, like the Christian devil does, to subvert the god's plan, or take the god's place.

 

One great evil that did happen was this moral panic in the 1980s where people's livs were ruined because they got accused of being part of Satanic conspiracies and other similar things. People who well might have been victims of one or more natural events were told this had to be satanic and others were prosecuted. All for a giant conn game where a lot of money was linked. You hear about Satanic elements to these drug cartels in central and South America. You know why? They can keep you chasing the satan instead of paying attention to the drugs, money, guns and sex slaves being laundered. It's convenient.

 

As to the TV appearances of these things? I can't really say for sure, because these require a visual illusion. Being blind I have to ask, and so I get three answers from three people. Even as a Christian I thought peple were likely to see what they wanted to see. By now, though, I think it's possible they use the symbols in some esoteric fashion, to get you to do what you just did: talk about them. Any press is good press, right? It's more attention for them, and attention is their currency. If people didn't care about those symbols, weren't talking about it, didn't get shocked and amazed by it, you wouldn't see anyone who wants attention doing it.

 

But finally I will say this: Every parent knows that while there are no monsters under the bed, in the child's mind the monsters exist. And that child may rationally know that they don't exist, but it takes time for that child's emotions to catch up with their mind. That's my best way of putting it, as a dad, although an educator probably has a more complete way of stating it.

[Deva]

Joshpantera: Regarding the Masters, I was not looking for anything specific. Just your take on it, since you are obviously familiar with Blavatsky. Personally, I still think some of the accounts of the Masters are compelling, although of course we are so distant in time that we cannot say one way or the other if they actually appeared, sent letters,etc., but Col. Olcott was no fool, it seems to me.

[Joshpantera]

Here's a link to Henry S. Olcott's testimony for those interested in the claims: http://blavatskyarchives.com/olcottandmahatmas.htm

 

In short, these masters or mahatmas were concerned with the betterment of humanity. Whether or not they existed at all or existed as just plain wise humans, or existed with astral as well as physical bodies as described the real point is that this whole thing is addressed to advancing humanity. There's not the ill-intent found at fraternal meetings at the Bohemian Grove. That's a very degenerate rendition of secret societies, the occult, and ancient knowledge. If the Theosophy stories were made up as a way of making up an idealized personification figure or figures, what the mahatmas represent is something profound. Identification with the whole. An enlightened world view. And many positive things that represent growth and advancement. So I'm not nearly as harsh on this as I would be with most theistic claims. 

 

Blavatsky is often quoted by apologists and conspiracy theorists as being an evil "Luciferian." Let's look at why: 

 

http://blavatskytheosophy.com/lucifer-the-lightbringer/

 

#6. H.P. Blavatsky was never at any point in her life a Christian, gave no credence to Christian theology and did not believe in any type of personal or anthropomorphic God nor in any type of personal or anthropomorphic devil. She believed and taught that there is but ONE Infinite Divine Life which is everything and in everything and that It has no adversary or enemy, since there is nothing but That – the boundless, impersonal, omnipresent Principle of Absolute Existence Itself. She was against the notion of worshipping or praying to anyone or anything. She taught that evil is really imperfection, which is the automatic and inevitable byproduct of the existence of matter.

 

The more wise, the more learned, the less people believe in anthropomorphic beings. The enlightenment sees wholeness. What adversary does the one eternal totality have when it's the only thing in existence, everywhere? When you get to these deeper levels of spirituality the whole drama between the forces of light and darkness sort of dissolves into one primary substance interacting with itself, always. Perfection and imperfection are both it. What exactly is there to worship? When broken down it's the one primary substance of existence worshiping itself as if it were not the worshiper and the worshipee simultaneously. It's the game of cat and mouse that the philosopher Alan Watts once spoke of. You're going about seeking to know God as if you yourself are not the final destination. And as if there's such a thing as a discrete adversary outside of, and apart from you yourself. Blavatsky was wise, no doubt. 

 

The book that I own is, "The Secret Doctrine." 

 

* “Esoteric philosophy admits neither good nor evil per se, as existing independently in nature. The cause for both is found, as regards the Kosmos, in the necessity of contraries or contrasts, and with respect to man, in his human nature, his ignorance and passions. There is no devil or the utterly depraved, as there are no Angels absolutely perfect, though there may be spirits of Light and of Darkness; thus LUCIFER – the spirit of Intellectual Enlightenment and Freedom of Thought – is metaphorically the guiding beacon, which helps man to find his way through the rocks and sandbanks of Life, for Lucifer is the LOGOS in his highest, and the “Adversary” in his lowest aspect – both of which are reflected in our Ego.” (Vol. 2, p. 162)

 

Some Christian's see her as this Luciferian priestess used by the devil to try and convince everyone that he's really good, as he masquerades as a being of light. And that's about the most childish and adolescent position to take at the same time. This is about the struggles within the human intellect and psyche. The spirit of honor, the spirit of freedom, the spirit of truth - these are not to mean literal spooks any more than the spirit of light and spirit of darkness. It's worthwhile to know and understand what these things really turn out to be, aside from the apologetic and conspiracy slander that taints our understanding of all things non-christian. The writings and lectures of MP Hall are a good way of learning about the occult, along with HP Blavatsky. 

[masquerade]

Leo: It's irrelevant now. Truth is truth, whatever it may be. Maybe it's all fucked up, maybe not. It is what it is. I no longer care.

[zuker12]

Yeah. Right now I'd rather keep my life in order than to engage with all the dickish trauma I've had. Maybe I just dont see it or believe it, not in the sense they do atleast. Maybe I'm just not cut for the paranoid lifestyle. I'd rather take the things I encounter on their own merits, than on some very unhuman value called "purity". If there be demons, or something, they have little effect in most people's lives... frankly, id rather honestly live life without religion or attention to purity, spirits etc. Than half-heeartedly live for something i have problems with. My only concern is that i dont excessively hurt anyone inadvertedly. I acknowledge the right of every human being to exist and live peacefully, under reasonable circumstances so that they have happiness in their own being, as long as they respect this right for others. (Course life aint just fair that way...)

[DayLight]

Yeah. Right now I'd rather keep my life in order than to engage with all the dickish trauma I've had. Maybe I just dont see it or believe it, not in the sense they do atleast. Maybe I'm just not cut for the paranoid lifestyle. I'd rather take the things I encounter on their own merits, than on some very unhuman value called "purity". If there be demons, or something, they have little effect in most people's lives... frankly, id rather honestly live life without religion or attention to purity, spirits etc. Than half-heeartedly live for something i have problems with. My only concern is that i dont excessively hurt anyone inadvertedly. I acknowledge the right of every human being to exist and live peacefully, under reasonable circumstances so that they have happiness in their own being, as long as they respect this right for others. (Course life aint just fair that way...)

When I read this, I just felt like making this comment.  There is something related to it, but it's hard to tell what exactly. 

 

Christians are taught that there is only one reality and they have to be aware of all the details in it.  They have to "know the truth because it will be their salvation".  So if someone is talking about some Satan or some forces, Christians have to know about it because they have to take a stand either for or against that idea.

 

And it feels like this kind of teaching is still with people, as part of their psyche, even if they exit Christianity. 

 

But in reality (apart from Christian beliefs) there is no need to worry about all the details of the existence.  There are way too many details.  And some like to divulge into them and some don't.  And it's ok to choose the parts you like to think about and ignore other parts.   Nothing wrong with that.  (except from a Christian perspective, as I said, because the salvation was based on "knowing the truth".)