Castiel233 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 A couple really spring to mind: 1- Geography. A man born to Muslim parents in the Middle East will passionately believe in Islam, a man born to Christian parents in the Bible belt will passionately believe in Jesus. Either man could have been born to the reverse, its seems to be sheer chance. Does Jesus really send the Muslim to Hell for being born into the "wrong" religion, does Allah send the Christian to Hell likewise. Neither man had any say on their place of birth, nor the religion of their parents. 2-It has to be taught and taught outside reality. Picture a gal, born deaf and blind and who never comes into contact with a religious person. How does she know God exists. Look at other animals. Every single animal (aside from man) has zero religious belief. If man could not read or write, Christianity would almost certainly not have survived. I look outside and into the sky, I see no God. He can only be "seen" mentally, by reading about Him and thinking about Him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wertbag Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Your 2nd point is the big one for me, absolutely the most basic point that god does not communicate at all. The bible says he spoke from the clouds, from burning bushes, from pillars of smoke and let his will be known, but that just doesn't happen. If he was all powerful and wants us to know him then it would happen. The fact he doesn't show himself either means he doesn't want to or can't, either way means Christianity is wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Your 2nd point is the big one for me, absolutely the most basic point that god does not communicate at all. The bible says he spoke from the clouds, from burning bushes....... NSFW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRFSC0oRDXs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 [quote name="Castiel233" post="1023386" 2-It has to be taught and taught outside reality. Picture a gal, born deaf and blind and who never comes into contact with a religious person. How does she know God exists. Look at other animals. Every single animal (aside from man) has zero religious belief. If man could not read or write, Christianity would almost certainly not have survived. I look outside and into the sky, I see no God. He can only be "seen" mentally, by reading about Him and thinking about Him. Your second point is both true and false. Religion as we know and understand it is taught, however supernatural thinking is something the human mind creates by itself without any help from others. Judaism and Christianity survived for many many years without writings because word of mouth was the predominate source of communication for millennia until the invention of the printing press. I understand what you're saying, but religion would still exist no matter what, because the human brain is inclined towards the supernatural when it tries to understand the world around it without the scientific method to intervene. So this particular point isn't really a strong argument against religion IMHO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJeffTheIncomprehensible Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Great topic, Castiel233, and some great responses so far. I think Storm touches on an important point--any strong argument against religion can be met with a "logical" and "irrefutable" response. Religious believers' first response is to assume the rightness of their belief, and therefore any religionist worth his or her salt can almost instantly create an ad hoc response to any argument. "Oh, THAT's not what I mean by God." or "No, even though this is in fact what the Bible says in plain language, you must come to it with a different approach to really know the truth." This sort of thing. (This is one of the major differences between religion and science, it seems to me--religion desperately tries not to be disproved, while science welcomes refutation.) That being said, for anyone willing to step back and really examine religion, both of your arguments raise huge difficulties. Argument 1 has another variety that seems strong to me as well--the fact that there is so little agreement among the various religions, or even among adherents of the same religion, on the most important tenets of religion (nature of god, what is scripture and how it should be interpreted, baptism, what constitutes saving faith, ad nauseum). If I was god, I'd make damn sure people knew of my Awesome Glory without a smidgen of possible doubt! The problem of suffering and evil also looms large, maybe not as an argument against religion as such, but certainly against the Judeo-Christian god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 Great topic, Castiel233, and some great responses so far. I think Storm touches on an important point--any strong argument against religion can be met with a "logical" and "irrefutable" response. Religious believers' first response is to assume the rightness of their belief, and therefore any religionist worth his or her salt can almost instantly create an ad hoc response to any argument. "Oh, THAT's not what I mean by God." or "No, even though this is in fact what the Bible says in plain language, you must come to it with a different approach to really know the truth." This sort of thing. (This is one of the major differences between religion and science, it seems to me--religion desperately tries not to be disproved, while science welcomes refutation.) That being said, for anyone willing to step back and really examine religion, both of your arguments raise huge difficulties. Argument 1 has another variety that seems strong to me as well--the fact that there is so little agreement among the various religions, or even among adherents of the same religion, on the most important tenets of religion (nature of god, what is scripture and how it should be interpreted, baptism, what constitutes saving faith, ad nauseum). If I was god, I'd make damn sure people knew of my Awesome Glory without a smidgen of possible doubt! The problem of suffering and evil also looms large, maybe not as an argument against religion as such, but certainly against the Judeo-Christian god. Charles Bradlaugh also commented on the geography argument. Bradlaugh, a brave and committed atheist activist and writer in the 19th century, remarked that Christians were like trained parrots and would merely repeat what they where taught, Take a Christian (said Bradlaugh) who says he believes in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, wind his life back if you could and place him with an Islamic family and he would parrot the creed of a Muslim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StJeffTheIncomprehensible Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Charles Bradlaugh also commented on the geography argument. Bradlaugh, a brave and committed atheist activist and writer in the 19th century, remarked that Christians were like trained parrots and would merely repeat what they where taught, Take a Christian (said Bradlaugh) who says he believes in the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, wind his life back if you could and place him with an Islamic family and he would parrot the creed of a Muslim. Just so. For some of us (me included), this means that deconverting is tantamount to denying family, heritage, etc. Those emotional webs are incredibly strong. In fact, I think I would have deconverted sooner had it not been for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 To add, with regards to reality: Picture me working with a guy who said he had a 1967 impala (one of my most wanted cars). I ask to see it, I'm told its in the shop, OK I ask to see a picture of it outside his house, he hasn't got any, I ask to see the log book, he's lost it. OK, I ask can I see it after it gets back from the shop, no he replies, his wife doesn't let him bring co-workers home, would he be willing to take a video of it he uploads to you tube when he gets it back from the shop, no he says, he's too busy and anyway constantly asking for proof is annoying him and if I will not take his word for it, then he will stop talking to me, I will just have to believe him. I would have to conclude that he didn't have the car at all. Yet Believers know that God exists and they cannot even describe Him in any meaningful terms 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleedblue22 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 For me, maybe the usual excuses for why God doesn't communicate or reveal himself in any way to distinguish himself from everything else that is non existent might be somewhat ok if there weren't so many religions out there with different gods who apparently have the same communication failure. As an experiment each night I prayed to a different god and asked the real god to please distinguish him or herself from the others as the real god through some sort of transformation process (could have taken the form of a hyper vivid dream). For each god, Jesus, Allah, brahma, I slept like a baby those nights without any memorable dreams. So the Christian god answered my prayer in no better way than the Hindu god, who according to Christian theology doesn't exists. All religious people use the lame rationalizations for their particular brand of god but don't have any problem pointing out that failed prayer to any other god might occur because that other god does not exist. But if prayer to their god fails... It's just god saying "not yet" or he has better plans for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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