Why Does God's Voice Only Speak To The Mentally Ill?

[2PhiloVoid]

 

 

 

 

The only time we hear that God spoke to someone, that person is being hauled off to the mental hospital to be given medications that prevent the misfirings of their brains. Hearing voices is a known symptom of mental illness.

 

When Christians say god "spoke" to them, it means they just kind of had a feeling in their hearts, not that they actually heard a voice. They "hear" their own thoughts, which is not the same as hearing a voice.

 

Why doesn't God speak in a voice to people who are NOT mentally ill?

 

...well, because the mentally ill are the only ones willing to actually wear their tin-foil helmets without worrying about making a fashion statement...

 

Could your God heal them?

 

 

Sure,  ...........in a somewhat Cessational kind of way, Dude.  (No, I did not say "Sensational" kind of way.  There is a difference, and I'm not on Benny Hinn's payroll. ) 

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

 

 

So God's power petered out when Peter petered out?  Or, we have the Bible, so we don't need to spend anymore on advertising? 

 

Even though it wouldn't cost us anything to keep advertising? 

 

 

 

Hey Dude!

 

...Petered out?    That's good! I'll have to remember that one.

 

Free advertising definitely helps to make a sale. However, I think someone in the Corporate Office did some studies and found that large doses of the product could be "addictive" and "detrimental to normal growth."

 

But seriously, while I'm not a Full-Cessationist, and while I don't think the Canon of the Bible necessitated the ceasing of miracles, I do take the position that all that "miracle stuff" could be used here and there (rarely) by God. The problem is that we can do ourselves a disfavor in assuming that magic will solve all our dilemmas or truly help us grow as people, and God knows this. It's just that we see highly exceptional instances of tragedy, and its easy for us to think otherwise. We can get what I call the Superman Complex (i.e. Superman, where are you?!!!).

 

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong about the above, but maybe I should tell you that you're talking to someone (me) who saw his mother suffer for countless years from the trauma of early childhood rape, parental verbal abuse, the loss of a child, Schizophrenia, Breast Cancer, and then just dropped dead one day of a heart-attack, even after (my) numerous prayers were put up for her over many years.

 

So, maybe I'm not the right guy to ask, Dude. But, I would suggest it doesn't hurt to ask from time to time for some kind of help anyway.

 

Peace,

2PhiloVoid

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

[snipped]

 

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong about the above, but maybe I should tell you that you're talking to someone (me) who saw his mother suffer for countless years from the trauma of early childhood rape, parental verbal abuse, the loss of a child, Schizophrenia, Breast Cancer, and then just dropped dead one day of a heart-attack, even after (my) numerous prayers were put up for her over many years.

 

So, maybe I'm not the right guy to ask, Dude. But, I would suggest it doesn't hurt to ask from time to time for some kind of help anyway.

 

Peace,

2PhiloVoid

 

 

I'm sorry for your loss, and for the suffering your mother endured.

 

True, it doesn't hurt to ask for help, even when you're asking an entity for which there is no evidence of existence, but when you think of the extent of your mother's suffering, and indeed all the suffering in the world, why would a loving god ignore all those heartfelt prayers?  Doesn't it make you question things?

[Justin]

Justus, talking about the original point of this thread, what makes you or any person in the Bible who claimed to have heard from God any different from say Joesph Smith?

[Justin]

Justus, our founding fathers granted freedom to everybody that was white and had a penis, what part of that do you not understand? When did slaves get their freedom in the US? Ever heard of women suffrage? Women still to this day in certain aspects don't have equal rights as men. Are you starting to process this now?

 

As for language being divine, do you have any proof other than the fact that you want it to be divine? Nearly every male of any given species has a penis. What does that mean, penises are not divine because many animals have them? I mean if language is simply because we have it and other animals don't, penises must not be, by your logic.

[2PhiloVoid]

 

 

 

 

[snipped]

 

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong about the above, but maybe I should tell you that you're talking to someone (me) who saw his mother suffer for countless years from the trauma of early childhood rape, parental verbal abuse, the loss of a child, Schizophrenia, Breast Cancer, and then just dropped dead one day of a heart-attack, even after (my) numerous prayers were put up for her over many years.

 

So, maybe I'm not the right guy to ask, Dude. But, I would suggest it doesn't hurt to ask from time to time for some kind of help anyway.

 

Peace,

2PhiloVoid

 

 

I'm sorry for your loss, and for the suffering your mother endured.

 

True, it doesn't hurt to ask for help, even when you're asking an entity for which there is no evidence of existence, but when you think of the extent of your mother's suffering, and indeed all the suffering in the world, why would a loving god ignore all those heartfelt prayers?  Doesn't it make you question things?

 

 

FreeThinkNZ,

 

I appreciate your condolences, I really do. Fortunately, the time during which my mother suffered was a number of years ago, and I’ve since been able to process most of the pain and heal from what transpired. My heart goes out to anyone who has experienced, or is going through, a long term struggle such as the one I experienced during my younger years.

 

Sure, there have been times when I’ve questioned my faith, and not only because I had to face my mother’s problems, but also because there have been other occasions and reasons in my life that pushed me to think that I might be reenacting the first twenty minutes of “Bruce Almighty.”

 

So, yes, “Why does God seem to ignore my prayers”? That question certainly qualifies (for me) as a ‘billion dollar’ question…

 

However, I’ve had a few other, more positive events and learning moments in my life that have ‘led’ me to believe that God is looking out for me…..or perhaps I just have overactive perceptual  closure....

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

 

 

[snipped]

 

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong about the above, but maybe I should tell you that you're talking to someone (me) who saw his mother suffer for countless years from the trauma of early childhood rape, parental verbal abuse, the loss of a child, Schizophrenia, Breast Cancer, and then just dropped dead one day of a heart-attack, even after (my) numerous prayers were put up for her over many years.

 

So, maybe I'm not the right guy to ask, Dude. But, I would suggest it doesn't hurt to ask from time to time for some kind of help anyway.

 

Peace,

2PhiloVoid

 

 

I'm sorry for your loss, and for the suffering your mother endured.

 

True, it doesn't hurt to ask for help, even when you're asking an entity for which there is no evidence of existence, but when you think of the extent of your mother's suffering, and indeed all the suffering in the world, why would a loving god ignore all those heartfelt prayers?  Doesn't it make you question things?

 

 

FreeThinkNZ,

 

I appreciate your condolences, I really do. Fortunately, the time during which my mother suffered was a number of years ago, and I’ve since been able to process most of the pain and heal from what transpired. My heart goes out to anyone who has experienced, or is going through, a long term struggle such as the one I experienced during my younger years.

 

Sure, there have been times when I’ve questioned my faith, and not only because I had to face my mother’s problems, but also because there have been other occasions and reasons in my life that pushed me to think that I might be reenacting the first twenty minutes of “Bruce Almighty.”

 

So, yes, “Why does God seem to ignore my prayers”? That question certainly qualifies (for me) as a ‘billion dollar’ question…

 

However, I’ve had a few other, more positive events and learning moments in my life that have ‘led’ me to believe that God is looking out for me…..or perhaps I just have overactive perceptual  closure....

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

 

 

I think from an evidence point of view, seeming to ignore prayers, and ignoring prayers, looks exactly the same.  How do you square this ignoring with the verses in the bible that promise god will supply all your needs, clothe you better than the sparrows etc etc.  There are several such promises.

 

An alternative term for your perceived instances of god "looking after you" is confirmation bias.  There are an awful lot of kids in Africa that he ain't looking after, while a lot of lost keys and parking spaces in North America seem to have been found.

[ironhorse]

There's a lot of kids in Africa we are not looking after.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

There's a lot of kids in Africa we are not looking after.

 

That's right, blame humans for the mess that your apparently all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful, loving, and just deity set up for his entertainment.

 

And I guarantee you, more actual help for needy children in that continent comes from secular sources than it ever does from your GoFundMe 20 year olds who tour a few schools and hospitals handing out bibles during their 12 day hotel accommodated "mission" trips.  Don't include me in your sanctimonious royal "we".

[ironhorse]

What do you mean? 

 

We are not responsible?

 

You think God should be our nanny and take care of everything?

 

 

Do you have statistics to prove there is more secular aide given to Africa than from religious groups?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

What do you mean? 

 

We are not responsible?

 

You think God should be our nanny and take care of everything?

 

 

Do you have statistics to prove there is more secular aide given to Africa than from religious groups?

 

Lol, xianity claims god is all-powerful, loving and just... how does that reconcile with allowing millions to suffer and needlessly die (not to mention consigning most of humanity over time to hell).  And doesn't the bible say god is our loving father who will take care of our needs and make all things work together for the good of those who love him?  I don't see a lot of that happening in the world.

 

Do you have statistics any evidence at all supporting your claim that a god exists and is anything like the one portrayed in your ancient book?

 

Have you ever heard of UNICEF, Save the Children, OXFAM, Bob Geldof (those are just the first few that spring to mind) and all the governments around the world that give aid to African countries?  (I forget, the US govt doesn't really do that sort of aid, because people who need help are just malingerers and should get a job or start a business, and anyway the US is the only country in the world).

[mymistake]

 

You think God should be our nanny and take care of everything?

 

 

 

Only if God were real, only if God were powerful, only if God were good, only if God had knowledge.

 

Unfortunately none of those things are true.

[bornagainathiest]

What do you mean? 

 

We are not responsible?

 

You think God should be our nanny and take care of everything?

 

 

Do you have statistics to prove there is more secular aide given to Africa than from religious groups?

 

Ironhorse,

 

I note that you missed a thread where an invitation has been extended to you.

 

Here is the link... http://www.ex-christ...y/#.VPlZi_msUuk

 

Please join us to further your understanding of cosmology.

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

[Justin]

What do you mean? 

 

We are not responsible?

 

You think God should be our nanny and take care of everything?

 

 

Do you have statistics to prove there is more secular aide given to Africa than from religious groups?

So what you are saying is that God IS helping to do something for the millions who suffer in Africa based on what his flock gives? Correct? Since he could snap his fingers and end their horrors instantly and doesn't, this does not fly. Knowing most of these folks will die and go to hell and still he does nothing? If I was a God I could NEVER just sit by and have people starve and live a very pitiful, often short life, and then just watch them fall headlong into hell.

 

Ask yourself, is this REALLY the best setup a perfect God could come up with? Oh I forgot, satan and all us evil people foiled his perfect plans... Pathetic.

 

Furthermore, if Sasquatch enthusiasts gave the most aid to Africa does that mean Sasquatch exists?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

*Googles Sasquatch African Aid Agency so I can do something to help*

[2PhiloVoid]

 

 

 

 

 

 

[snipped]

 

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong about the above, but maybe I should tell you that you're talking to someone (me) who saw his mother suffer for countless years from the trauma of early childhood rape, parental verbal abuse, the loss of a child, Schizophrenia, Breast Cancer, and then just dropped dead one day of a heart-attack, even after (my) numerous prayers were put up for her over many years.

 

So, maybe I'm not the right guy to ask, Dude. But, I would suggest it doesn't hurt to ask from time to time for some kind of help anyway.

 

Peace,

2PhiloVoid

 

 

I'm sorry for your loss, and for the suffering your mother endured.

 

True, it doesn't hurt to ask for help, even when you're asking an entity for which there is no evidence of existence, but when you think of the extent of your mother's suffering, and indeed all the suffering in the world, why would a loving god ignore all those heartfelt prayers?  Doesn't it make you question things?

 

 

FreeThinkNZ,

 

I appreciate your condolences, I really do. Fortunately, the time during which my mother suffered was a number of years ago, and I’ve since been able to process most of the pain and heal from what transpired. My heart goes out to anyone who has experienced, or is going through, a long term struggle such as the one I experienced during my younger years.

 

Sure, there have been times when I’ve questioned my faith, and not only because I had to face my mother’s problems, but also because there have been other occasions and reasons in my life that pushed me to think that I might be reenacting the first twenty minutes of “Bruce Almighty.”

 

So, yes, “Why does God seem to ignore my prayers”? That question certainly qualifies (for me) as a ‘billion dollar’ question…

 

However, I’ve had a few other, more positive events and learning moments in my life that have ‘led’ me to believe that God is looking out for me…..or perhaps I just have overactive perceptual  closure....

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

 

 

I think from an evidence point of view, seeming to ignore prayers, and ignoring prayers, looks exactly the same.  How do you square this ignoring with the verses in the bible that promise god will supply all your needs, clothe you better than the sparrows etc etc.  There are several such promises.

 

An alternative term for your perceived instances of god "looking after you" is confirmation bias.  There are an awful lot of kids in Africa that he ain't looking after, while a lot of lost keys and parking spaces in North America seem to have been found.

 

 

Squaring God's 'ignoring' will probably come down to a matter of hermeneutic considerations.  It seems to me that the overall 'message' of the New Testament is 'there will be trouble...get ready," rather than rubbing a magic lamp and expecting a genie to give us three wishes. (Of course, I'm not Pentacostal/Charismatic/Faith Movement, so I'm likely to posit a different set of expectations....)

 

Sure, there could be confirmation bias on my part, but how would you establish that that is indeed what I'm 'suffering' from? What about the possibility of dis-confirmation bias on your part?

 

Kids in Africa? Yes, that is a problem, but I'm not sure how that applies to my own personal situation.

 

Parking Spaces? People actually pray for that kind of thing?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

I think from an evidence point of view, seeming to ignore prayers, and ignoring prayers, looks exactly the same.  How do you square this ignoring with the verses in the bible that promise god will supply all your needs, clothe you better than the sparrows etc etc.  There are several such promises.

 

An alternative term for your perceived instances of god "looking after you" is confirmation bias.  There are an awful lot of kids in Africa that he ain't looking after, while a lot of lost keys and parking spaces in North America seem to have been found.

 

 

Squaring God's 'ignoring' will probably come down to a matter of hermeneutic considerations.  It seems to me that the overall 'message' of the New Testament is 'there will be trouble...get ready," rather than rubbing a magic lamp and expecting a genie to give us three wishes. (Of course, I'm not Pentacostal/Charismatic/Faith Movement, so I'm likely to posit a different set of expectations....)

 

Sure, there could be confirmation bias on my part, but how would you establish that that is indeed what I'm 'suffering' from? What about the possibility of dis-confirmation bias on your part?

 

Kids in Africa? Yes, that is a problem, but I'm not sure how that applies to my own personal situation.

 

Parking Spaces? People actually pray for that kind of thing?

 

 

What is your view of the biblical promises that god will look after us?

 

Here is some information about confirmation bias:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

We are all prone to confirmation bias, but like all biases, if we are using the scientific method to test our hypothesis, then we need to show how we have addressed our tendency to biases and controlled for them.

 

You made a positive claim that god was looking after you.  Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to support that claim with evidence.  It is not for me to prove that god wasn't looking after you.  I am merely suggesting that I am not convinced so far.

 

I mentioned kids in africa, to point to evidence that god is not looking after his creations as promised in the bible.  Some of the NT promises are contingent on being a xian.  Well, lots of xians suffer in ways that don't demonstrate god is looking after them.  So the conclusion I draw from that is either god broke his promises, or god doesn't exist.

 

Yes, xians pray for parking spaces and to find lost keys all the time.  I find it hard to believe you didn't know this.  Xians pray for everything from car repairs to winning sports games, to certain people getting "saved" and evangelical events having good weather and seamless sound engineering.  The NT promises that god will give you what you ask for, in accordance with his will.  Presumably it is his will that people get saved or have a good opportunity to hear about getting saved.  But xians have prayed for this and it hasn't happened.  How do you explain that?

[2PhiloVoid]

 

 

 

I think from an evidence point of view, seeming to ignore prayers, and ignoring prayers, looks exactly the same.  How do you square this ignoring with the verses in the bible that promise god will supply all your needs, clothe you better than the sparrows etc etc.  There are several such promises.

 

An alternative term for your perceived instances of god "looking after you" is confirmation bias.  There are an awful lot of kids in Africa that he ain't looking after, while a lot of lost keys and parking spaces in North America seem to have been found.

 

 

Squaring God's 'ignoring' will probably come down to a matter of hermeneutic considerations.  It seems to me that the overall 'message' of the New Testament is 'there will be trouble...get ready," rather than rubbing a magic lamp and expecting a genie to give us three wishes. (Of course, I'm not Pentacostal/Charismatic/Faith Movement, so I'm likely to posit a different set of expectations....)

 

Sure, there could be confirmation bias on my part, but how would you establish that that is indeed what I'm 'suffering' from? What about the possibility of dis-confirmation bias on your part?

 

Kids in Africa? Yes, that is a problem, but I'm not sure how that applies to my own personal situation.

 

Parking Spaces? People actually pray for that kind of thing?

 

 

What is your view of the biblical promises that god will look after us?

 

Here is some information about confirmation bias:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

We are all prone to confirmation bias, but like all biases, if we are using the scientific method to test our hypothesis, then we need to show how we have addressed our tendency to biases and controlled for them.

 

You made a positive claim that god was looking after you.  Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to support that claim with evidence.  It is not for me to prove that god wasn't looking after you.  I am merely suggesting that I am not convinced so far.

 

I mentioned kids in africa, to point to evidence that god is not looking after his creations as promised in the bible.  Some of the NT promises are contingent on being a xian.  Well, lots of xians suffer in ways that don't demonstrate god is looking after them.  So the conclusion I draw from that is either god broke his promises, or god doesn't exist.

 

Yes, xians pray for parking spaces and to find lost keys all the time.  I find it hard to believe you didn't know this.  Xians pray for everything from car repairs to winning sports games, to certain people getting "saved" and evangelical events having good weather and seamless sound engineering.  The NT promises that god will give you what you ask for, in accordance with his will.  Presumably it is his will that people get saved or have a good opportunity to hear about getting saved.  But xians have prayed for this and it hasn't happened.  How do you explain that?

 

 

Well, FreeThinkerNZ,

 

You've definitely piled on more than I have time for at the moment. Each element of your response above probably deserves a post by itself, so I'll just answer the first one.

 

Here's my generic view regarding 'God's looking after us':  God preserves our souls (and future bodies), but does not guarantee our immediate, transitory, terrestrial existence; thus, if we feel desperate, we will cry. If we feel threatened, we will hide. If someone grabs us and crucifies us, we will die. God sees every single bit of all that transpires, and we are saved "as through a fire." Painful yes, but true.

 

One of our mistakes is to see prayer as some kind of divining device by which we may call down fortune upon our weary lives, but it never really was about 'prosperity.'  Another mistake is to think that faith empowers us to change our situation or stations in life, when in fact faith's main purpose is to enervate us to love God and other people.

 

So, God does look after 'us.' He sees everything we've done, are doing, and will do. And for those human beings that, from our limited vantage point, seem to fall through the cracks of God's Providence, we have to remember that we have not been given a comprehensive system of how, who, what, where, when, and why any individual will be saved.

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hi PhiloVoid, I accept that your Christian experience supplies some positives for you.  I am saddened at the thinness of your above response.  Nothing you say prods me to rethink my conclusion, reached more than 20 yrs ago now, that Christianity is false. The universe, and human life, as we experience them are more consistent with assumptions of randomness than they are with the triple-omni God assumption.  So it seems to me, anyway.

 

Sometimes claims of miracles give me pause, but rarely.  They usually boil down to nothing substantiated or nothing verifiably non-natural.  In the end, miracle claims I've come across require faith.  So they don't succeed in justifying faith by providing evidence.

 

If you know of some solid miracle claims that are in principle falsifiable, it would be valuable to hear them.

 

Otherwise, I think your reply boils down to God's ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts.  That claim is consistent with the whole system's being a crock.

[sdelsolray]

The preaching begins, replete with mere assertions and an ample dose of the royal "we".  I guess after previously providing dozens of Properly Capitalized Words and Phrases, there is some measure of Entitlement.

[mymistake]

The preaching begins, replete with mere assertions and an ample dose of the royal "we".  I guess after previously providing dozens of Properly Capitalized Words and Phrases, there is some measure of Entitlement.

 

 

Perhaps.  But people kept asking him to talk about his religious beliefs.  Unless he starts justifying genocide he gets a pass from me . . . for now.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

 

 

 

I think from an evidence point of view, seeming to ignore prayers, and ignoring prayers, looks exactly the same.  How do you square this ignoring with the verses in the bible that promise god will supply all your needs, clothe you better than the sparrows etc etc.  There are several such promises.

 

An alternative term for your perceived instances of god "looking after you" is confirmation bias.  There are an awful lot of kids in Africa that he ain't looking after, while a lot of lost keys and parking spaces in North America seem to have been found.

 

 

Squaring God's 'ignoring' will probably come down to a matter of hermeneutic considerations.  It seems to me that the overall 'message' of the New Testament is 'there will be trouble...get ready," rather than rubbing a magic lamp and expecting a genie to give us three wishes. (Of course, I'm not Pentacostal/Charismatic/Faith Movement, so I'm likely to posit a different set of expectations....)

 

Sure, there could be confirmation bias on my part, but how would you establish that that is indeed what I'm 'suffering' from? What about the possibility of dis-confirmation bias on your part?

 

Kids in Africa? Yes, that is a problem, but I'm not sure how that applies to my own personal situation.

 

Parking Spaces? People actually pray for that kind of thing?

 

 

What is your view of the biblical promises that god will look after us?

 

Here is some information about confirmation bias:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

We are all prone to confirmation bias, but like all biases, if we are using the scientific method to test our hypothesis, then we need to show how we have addressed our tendency to biases and controlled for them.

 

You made a positive claim that god was looking after you.  Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to support that claim with evidence.  It is not for me to prove that god wasn't looking after you.  I am merely suggesting that I am not convinced so far.

 

I mentioned kids in africa, to point to evidence that god is not looking after his creations as promised in the bible.  Some of the NT promises are contingent on being a xian.  Well, lots of xians suffer in ways that don't demonstrate god is looking after them.  So the conclusion I draw from that is either god broke his promises, or god doesn't exist.

 

Yes, xians pray for parking spaces and to find lost keys all the time.  I find it hard to believe you didn't know this.  Xians pray for everything from car repairs to winning sports games, to certain people getting "saved" and evangelical events having good weather and seamless sound engineering.  The NT promises that god will give you what you ask for, in accordance with his will.  Presumably it is his will that people get saved or have a good opportunity to hear about getting saved.  But xians have prayed for this and it hasn't happened.  How do you explain that?

 

 

Well, FreeThinkerNZ,

 

You've definitely piled on more than I have time for at the moment. Each element of your response above probably deserves a post by itself, so I'll just answer the first one.

 

Here's my generic view regarding 'God's looking after us':  God preserves our souls (and future bodies), but does not guarantee our immediate, transitory, terrestrial existence; thus, if we feel desperate, we will cry. If we feel threatened, we will hide. If someone grabs us and crucifies us, we will die. God sees every single bit of all that transpires, and we are saved "as through a fire." Painful yes, but true.

 

One of our mistakes is to see prayer as some kind of divining device by which we may call down fortune upon our weary lives, but it never really was about 'prosperity.'  Another mistake is to think that faith empowers us to change our situation or stations in life, when in fact faith's main purpose is to enervate us to love God and other people.

 

So, God does look after 'us.' He sees everything we've done, are doing, and will do. And for those human beings that, from our limited vantage point, seem to fall through the cracks of God's Providence, we have to remember that we have not been given a comprehensive system of how, who, what, where, when, and why any individual will be saved.

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

 

 

Thanks for posting about the first question, and I look forward to reading your posts about the other questions when you have time.  I am genuinely interesting in hearing about your views.

 

Regarding the first question, which was:

 

What is your view of the biblical promises that god will look after us?

 

I have highlighted the parts where you make assertions about the existence of your god, the characteristics you believe he has, and the beliefs of all humans.

 

God preserves our souls (and future bodies), but does not guarantee our immediate, transitory, terrestrial existence; thus, if we feel desperate, we will cry. If we feel threatened, we will hide. If someone grabs us and crucifies us, we will die. God sees every single bit of all that transpires, and we are saved "as through a fire." Painful yes, but true.

 

One of our mistakes is to see prayer as some kind of divining device by which we may call down fortune upon our weary lives, but it never really was about 'prosperity.'  Another mistake is to think that faith empowers us to change our situation or stations in life, when in fact faith's main purpose is to enervate us to love God and other people.

 

So, God does look after 'us.' He sees everything we've done, are doing, and will do. And for those human beings that, from our limited vantage point, seem to fall through the cracks of God's Providence, we have to remember that we have not been given a comprehensive system of how, who, what, where, when, and why any individual will be saved.

 

In summary, you have asserted that:

 

God exists

All humans have souls

All humans will have future bodies

God preserves these

God does not guarantee our immediate existence

God sees everything

All humans are saved

All humans other than you see prayer as a divining device

Prayer never really was about prosperity

All humans other than you think faith empowers us to change things

Faith has a purpose as described by you

God looks after us

God sees everything

God provides providence, for some people

All humans have not been given certain information

All humans will be saved

 

If I were to approach this list of assertions from an objective, atheistic viewpoint, it is obvious that you would be unable to provide good evidence to support any of the assertions.

 

If I were to approach this list of assertions from the point of view of a xian who believes the bible is the word of god (even a non-literalist xian), I would want you to provide biblical support for each of the assertions.  You would be free to use whichever bible verses you like to show how your interpretation leads you to these conclusions.

 

I have asserted that in several places, the bible promises that god will look after us, particularly when we are believers and we ask for things in accordance with his will.  I invited you to share your view of these promises, and you have done that.  

 

Your post has not convinced me that god exists or looks after us, or that the biblical promises are true. Your interpretation of the bible is different to mine, and probably to many others.  In any case, it's been a useful exercise in seeing how a believer can try to reconcile the promises with reality.  When I studied the bible, I was unable to do that and so I concluded that the bible and xianity weren't true.

 

As for the other questions, I have summarised them here for ease of reference.  I look forward to your responses.

 

Starving kids in africa are evidence that god is not looking after his creations as promised in the bible, as are xians who have asked god to keep his promises, according to his will, to no avail.  Does this mean god broke his promises, god doesn't exist, or something else?

 

Xians have prayed for people to hear about getting saved (becoming xians) or get saved (become xians) and it hasn't happened.  How do you explain that?

[duderonomy]

 

 

 

 

I think from an evidence point of view, seeming to ignore prayers, and ignoring prayers, looks exactly the same.  How do you square this ignoring with the verses in the bible that promise god will supply all your needs, clothe you better than the sparrows etc etc.  There are several such promises.

 

An alternative term for your perceived instances of god "looking after you" is confirmation bias.  There are an awful lot of kids in Africa that he ain't looking after, while a lot of lost keys and parking spaces in North America seem to have been found.

 

 

Squaring God's 'ignoring' will probably come down to a matter of hermeneutic considerations.  It seems to me that the overall 'message' of the New Testament is 'there will be trouble...get ready," rather than rubbing a magic lamp and expecting a genie to give us three wishes. (Of course, I'm not Pentacostal/Charismatic/Faith Movement, so I'm likely to posit a different set of expectations....)

 

Sure, there could be confirmation bias on my part, but how would you establish that that is indeed what I'm 'suffering' from? What about the possibility of dis-confirmation bias on your part?

 

Kids in Africa? Yes, that is a problem, but I'm not sure how that applies to my own personal situation.

 

Parking Spaces? People actually pray for that kind of thing?

 

 

What is your view of the biblical promises that god will look after us?

 

Here is some information about confirmation bias:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

 

We are all prone to confirmation bias, but like all biases, if we are using the scientific method to test our hypothesis, then we need to show how we have addressed our tendency to biases and controlled for them.

 

You made a positive claim that god was looking after you.  Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to support that claim with evidence.  It is not for me to prove that god wasn't looking after you.  I am merely suggesting that I am not convinced so far.

 

I mentioned kids in africa, to point to evidence that god is not looking after his creations as promised in the bible.  Some of the NT promises are contingent on being a xian.  Well, lots of xians suffer in ways that don't demonstrate god is looking after them.  So the conclusion I draw from that is either god broke his promises, or god doesn't exist.

 

Yes, xians pray for parking spaces and to find lost keys all the time.  I find it hard to believe you didn't know this.  Xians pray for everything from car repairs to winning sports games, to certain people getting "saved" and evangelical events having good weather and seamless sound engineering.  The NT promises that god will give you what you ask for, in accordance with his will.  Presumably it is his will that people get saved or have a good opportunity to hear about getting saved.  But xians have prayed for this and it hasn't happened.  How do you explain that?

 

 

Well, FreeThinkerNZ,

 

You've definitely piled on more than I have time for at the moment. Each element of your response above probably deserves a post by itself, so I'll just answer the first one.

 

Here's my generic view regarding 'God's looking after us':  God preserves our souls (and future bodies), but does not guarantee our immediate, transitory, terrestrial existence; thus, if we feel desperate, we will cry. If we feel threatened, we will hide. If someone grabs us and crucifies us, we will die. God sees every single bit of all that transpires, and we are saved "as through a fire." Painful yes, but true.

 

One of our mistakes is to see prayer as some kind of divining device by which we may call down fortune upon our weary lives, but it never really was about 'prosperity.'  Another mistake is to think that faith empowers us to change our situation or stations in life, when in fact faith's main purpose is to enervate us to love God and other people.

 

So, God does look after 'us.' He sees everything we've done, are doing, and will do. And for those human beings that, from our limited vantage point, seem to fall through the cracks of God's Providence, we have to remember that we have not been given a comprehensive system of how, who, what, where, when, and why any individual will be saved.

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

 

Philo, the Bible seems to disagree with your theology.

 

James 5:13-16New International Version (NIV) The Prayer of Faith

13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%205:13-16

 

 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

[2PhiloVoid]

 

Thanks for posting about the first question, and I look forward to reading your posts about the other questions when you have time.  I am genuinely interesting in hearing about your views.

 

Regarding the first question, which was:

 

What is your view of the biblical promises that god will look after us?

 

I have highlighted the parts where you make assertions about the existence of your god, the characteristics you believe he has, and the beliefs of all humans.

 

God preserves our souls (and future bodies), but does not guarantee our immediate, transitory, terrestrial existence; thus, if we feel desperate, we will cry. If we feel threatened, we will hide. If someone grabs us and crucifies us, we will die. God sees every single bit of all that transpires, and we are saved "as through a fire." Painful yes, but true.

 

One of our mistakes is to see prayer as some kind of divining device by which we may call down fortune upon our weary lives, but it never really was about 'prosperity.'  Another mistake is to think that faith empowers us to change our situation or stations in life, when in fact faith's main purpose is to enervate us to love God and other people.

 

So, God does look after 'us.' He sees everything we've done, are doing, and will do. And for those human beings that, from our limited vantage point, seem to fall through the cracks of God's Providence, we have to remember that we have not been given a comprehensive system of how, who, what, where, when, and why any individual will be saved.

 

In summary, you have asserted that:

 

God exists

All humans have souls

All humans will have future bodies

God preserves these

God does not guarantee our immediate existence

God sees everything

All humans are saved

All humans other than you see prayer as a divining device

Prayer never really was about prosperity

All humans other than you think faith empowers us to change things

Faith has a purpose as described by you

God looks after us

God sees everything

God provides providence, for some people

All humans have not been given certain information

All humans will be saved

 

If I were to approach this list of assertions from an objective, atheistic viewpoint, it is obvious that you would be unable to provide good evidence to support any of the assertions.

 

If I were to approach this list of assertions from the point of view of a xian who believes the bible is the word of god (even a non-literalist xian), I would want you to provide biblical support for each of the assertions.  You would be free to use whichever bible verses you like to show how your interpretation leads you to these conclusions.

 

I have asserted that in several places, the bible promises that god will look after us, particularly when we are believers and we ask for things in accordance with his will.  I invited you to share your view of these promises, and you have done that.  

 

Your post has not convinced me that god exists or looks after us, or that the biblical promises are true. Your interpretation of the bible is different to mine, and probably to many others.  In any case, it's been a useful exercise in seeing how a believer can try to reconcile the promises with reality.  When I studied the bible, I was unable to do that and so I concluded that the bible and xianity weren't true.

 

As for the other questions, I have summarised them here for ease of reference.  I look forward to your responses.

 

Starving kids in africa are evidence that god is not looking after his creations as promised in the bible, as are xians who have asked god to keep his promises, according to his will, to no avail.  Does this mean god broke his promises, god doesn't exist, or something else?

 

Xians have prayed for people to hear about getting saved (becoming xians) or get saved (become xians) and it hasn't happened.  How do you explain that?

 

 

Hi FreeThinkerNZ,

[As I’ve already told another member here, I’ve had family matters to attend to lately, so I’m just now getting back to some posting.]

 

Free, you have a very incisive approach in ‘getting to the truth’ of the matter, and after reading your last response, I kind of feel as if I’ve just been exposed to your brandishing of an X-acto Knife. While I could be intimidated by that, I guess I’ll instead just take an extra breath and, and maybe exhale, before commencing any kind of further elaboration on what we’ve discussed thus far. So, here I go…I’m taking a breath…

 

I see that you’ve concisely distilled a summary from some of my earlier statements, having extracted quite a list of my assertions, however precisely or imprecisely. As I have read over the list, I was surprised to find that, according to your adroit handling of my comments, I apparently said some things that I didn’t even know I believed. So, maybe I need to make some clarification about what I was attempting to say before going on? Maybe…assuming it’s safe to do so?

 

In looking back at my previous post, I seem to see a very, very briefly made preface leading into my statements about what I believe constitutes “God’s looking after us.” More specifically, I think I indicated that my statements were ‘generic.’ Perhaps I shouldn’t have approached my response in that manner, but I did, and it seems that in the process I may have simply produced a lot of smoke, like a poor man’s version of the Wizard of Oz. I apologize for the resulting lack of clarity. I guess I need to redouble my efforts in expressing myself with Cartesian perspicuity. 

 

In looking at the list you’ve complied of my generic statements, I’d say that I agree with it much of it, except for the following items:

 

1) all humans will have future bodies, 2) all humans are saved, 3) all humans other than me see prayer as a divining device, 4) all humans other than me think faith empowers, and 5) all humans will be saved. If you would please, you can nix the “all” that is present in each of these extrapolated statements and replace it with the word “some.” I think that would represent a better approximation of what I believe.

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

[2PhiloVoid]

 

Well...I guess that just about clears it up for us, doesn't it?