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Goodbye Jesus

I've Stopped Lying To Myself And Am Now An Agnostic. Never Felt More Mentally Free.


LittleRedWriterGirl

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Hi, guys! I'm new here and this is my first post.

 

To start off, I realize I'm extremely fortunate in many ways, because my parents were pretty "mild" Christians compared to some of the other stories I've read on here. Yes, they read the Bible to me every day starting when I was 3-4, and we'd have Bible studies into my teens and whatnot, and I was taught about God and Jesus and prayer...but overall, my upbringing was pretty normal. I hung out with kids of mixed backgrounds, went to school, had a normal childhood and social life, etc. I spent my teenage years reading Harry Potter, listening to rock music, and preparing for university/careers, and didn't need to hide any of those things from my parents. They are Christian and conservative, but not batshit fundy. To this day, my parents are still pretty religious. (I'm 22 and haven't lived at home since I was 17, but I have a pretty good relationship with my parents and we talk on the phone once a week or so). They read the Bible and study it every single morning, and have mentioned several times that they regret not going to Sunday church more often, and whenever I mention any type of stressful situation, my mom's advice always involves praying about it. So, while they were never Duggar-ish when I was growing up, they still are pretty genuinely devout about Christianity.

 

They're pretty logical, too. My parents have science careers and advanced degrees, and I was encouraged to read lots and question things. My parents are great: were great when I was a kid and still are now. That's part of why I didn't recognize Xianity as bullshit at a much younger age. They had lots of evidence involving Bible prophecies coming true, chariot wheels found on the bottom of the Red Sea and whatnot.

 

Growing up, though, there were a few major issues I had with Christianity not making sense. For many of them, I was able to rationalize away. For example, the "Problem of Pain" thing, I could make sense of on the viewpoint that sometimes you need hardship in order to learn, strengthen and grow. I have examples of this in my own life. If I hadn't been bullied, I wouldn't be sensitive to others and tuned in to when someone needs a friend to reach out to them. I'd read all the true stories of people who, after having lost a loved one to a disease, went on to create the cure and save 1000s. Of course there's still the "why invent cancer in the first place" or "why create people with the tendency to bully" arguments, but I still could philosophically understand that maybe people needed some struggles for what lay ahead, sort of like designing challenges in a video game. Some of Earth's horrors do seem way too sick for learning purposes, but whatever, it was my way of bridging the cognitive dissonance in my teenage mind at the time. I was able to make peace with the icky parts of the Bible (sexism, homophobia, violence, etc) by realizing that historical attitudes of the time would naturally weave themselves in, without being the actual message of the faith itself, i.e. you could still be Christian without being fundy/sexist/homophobe/whatever.  I also "got" the "How can you look around and think there's no God" thing. I do believe in SOME type of higher power still; from an agnostic, non-religious standpoint: I think that some type of higher power(s) set the big bang, evolution, aliens, earth life etc etc in place, but that humans couldn't define such a god through ANY religion, including Christianity.

 

Here's the thing I don't get: The fundamental issue of Christianity itself. The "Sacrifice" bit. That was the part that NO ONE could explain to me, not even pastors. I looked online, googled it everywhere, and probably read 100s of forum posts and articles about it, and could find nothing other than the standard "God' s ways are higher than ours" apologia bullshit.

 

LIke....their entire premise is that somehow, God needed a sacrifice to pay for our sins, so he created a son named Christ (who was somehow also himself) to die for our sins for us? And only a perfect person could do that?

Okay.

Sure.

Why not just forgive people himself? Why did there NEED to be a sacrifice? What would happen without one? If God is supposed to be the all powerful master of the universe, why is he subject to some stupid Court-in-heaven crap?

 

I now realize all of the other evidence that proves it wrong. The fact that the 4 main Gospels were written decades apart, with each one getting more and more ridiculous as time passed. The fact that the Bible was written to support its own claims, i.e. NT referencing stuff from Isiah on purpose, not "prophecy coming true." The fact that languages and churches have changed the Bible over time. All of it. If you Google "proof Christianity isn't real," I've read ALL the articles on the first 4-5 pages of the search results.

 

In my teen years, I kept clinging to the faith because of the fear of Hell. Doubts would crop up, and I'd be like "No! I'm not a hell-going atheist! I'm a Christian! Dear God, please forgive my doubts and help me to develop stronger faith in you, and show me more evidence so I can better understand!" I kept praying for him to help me understand the Sacrifice in real terms so it could make rational sense, the way I'd made rational sense of the other things. It never did.

 

In my college years, I drifted away a bit more, except for a time when I was feeling left out socially as a new college kid and wanted a place to fit in. I joined Campus Crusades, which is Christian but pretty liberal (all about the love and kindness parts, not the bigotry, at least at the state school I was at). The people there were SO NICE and I wanted to believe, so I tried to cling on a bit more. I also had the fear of Hell come up again too, not because of anyone else, but my own anxieties. The same thing happened again when I moved to a new city after college and had a tough time for the first couple months before I found my niche of cool soul-mate friends who clicked with me like peas in a pod.

 

I noticed that the happier I was, and the better off I was socially, the less inclined I was to be faithful. It was like a security blanket.

 

Then the Sacrifice  thing kept bugging me again...I kept looking it up, and not finding answers.

 

I did some research on abusive home environments for a story I'm writing, and found all these testimonies of people who had it REALLY bad, in the kinds of households where girls were forbidden to go to school and taught that their only purposes were to be wives and moms. As someone who does NOT want kids, ever, and has always known this, the idea of forced motherhood seemed particularly abhorrent to me. I read on about the bullshit prison houses in the disguise of "reform schools" run by abusive, fundy whackos, and about a saint who was so into the self-flaggelation stuff that he caused his own leg to be infested with maggots, and would put the maggots back on his sores going "eat what God has given you."

 

Now, I know that stuff like that happens in any religion, and in contexts without religion, and that religion has also done good. But the "good" Christianity has come from the more rational and non-fundy types, like my parents. The more strictly-Bible-adhering someone gets, the more fundy-like and oppressive they get, especially of their own children, and the more evil they are prone to do through narcissistic control methods.

 

I read the Bible again and saw right through it.

 

I now see Christianity as no different from believing in Santa. First you believe...then, you have little kernels of doubt but you shove them away because you want to believe...then, everything just falls away and you see it was never really there at all.

 

Now, I consider myself a spiritual Agnostic. I believe in a higher power, or multiple ones, but I don't think any religion could define it. I also believe in positive/negative energy, sort of like the Force from Star Wars. I am all for prayer, believing in life after death and any big-picture spiritual belief, but NOT in the contexts of Christianity or other narrowly-defined human religion, which I'm now convinced is ALL bullshit.

 

Sorry if this is long and rambling. I know it's nowhere near as moving as the people who endured oppression and abuse. But it's still a big paradigm change for me, so if you've read it all, then thanks.

 

I've been listening to the song "The Secret" by 30 Seconds to Mars on repeat for a long time. It's a great de-conversion song.

"The secret is out....goodbye....goodbyeeeee..."

 

 

 

 

 

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Welcome.  

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I can relate to your story quite a bit. Welcome to the forum. I'm a new heretic myself, and only converted to "atheisty agnosticism" as of late last year.

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Thanks! Penguin, I see we have writing and reading in common. Too bad you live in Colorado and can't grab a coffee, lol. zDuivel7.gif

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Thanks! Penguin, I see we have writing and reading in common. Too bad you live in Colorado and can't grab a coffee, lol. zDuivel7.gif

That does suck a bit. Your extimony sounds very intriguing. My parents were definitely Southern Baptist diehards, but not fucking loony about it. Still, it feels great to be out and here with like-minded people. I might send you a private message at some point with questions about your extimony, if that's alright.

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Welcome!

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Guest Furball

 

 

I read the Bible again and saw right through it.

 

Isn't it amazing how after you leave christianity that when you go through the bible again the whole thing just falls apart on itself? When i read the bible now, it doesn't have that seriousness to it anymore. Now i just laugh at it or when the non humans (christians) quote from it, i just giggle at them. Welcome to this site, i look forward to your posts. -me

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Welcome, LittleRedWriterGirl.

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Good grief, to some extent I feel like I just read something that I could have written, our stories are that similar. What especially resonated with me was your experience with Campus Crusade - that idea that the people within that group can be so kind, and wishing so desperately you could keep going along with it all... And then realizing you're the fish swimming the opposite direction as everyone. That's definitely a funny moment.

 

I am also new to this site, and am finally at a point of seeing this not as "my-life-as-I-know-it-is-ending", but rather a period of growth, learning and change. I hope you are feeling the same way!

 

Anywho... Suppose I'm kind of new here to be saying welcome, but in the spirit of the forum - welcome to a fellow newcomer!

 

(PS. About to give that song a listen. :)

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Great stuff, LittleRedWriterGirl, I appreciated reading your story.  Welcome to this forum!  And welcome also, rxsteel!

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I read your story, welcome to the forums!

for the first half your story could just as easily been about me. i know the feeling of jumping

into the arms of a friendly fairly liberal church for social reasons.

look forward to more posts from you smile.png

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Excellent story! Welcome to the site.

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Welcome.  Sounds like you've found the joy and freedom of knowing that you just don't know...

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Welcome to a place where you are allowed to think "out of the box". The "box", of course, is Xtianity. I commend you for reading the whole bible. I agree it is obviously phony if you don't already believe that god demands that  you believe it. Large parts of it are really boring, though. But it is good for us to know the bible better than as many Xtians as possible.   Rip

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Welcome!  I enjoyed reading about your journey and I'm glad you found this site!  It's been very helpful to me and I hope you find it's a good place to learn and question.

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I now see Christianity as no different from believing in Santa. First you believe...then, you have little kernels of doubt but you shove them away because you want to believe...then, everything just falls away and you see it was never really there at all.

 

 

Good to meet you, LittleRedWriterGirl,

 

Yep. That about sums it up. From one farily new member here to another, I hope you enjoy your stay and find something helpful in your journey.

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I remember reading a theory somewhere that the sacrifice thing is a result of the inbuilt human desire to reciprocate and then attributing the same desire to a supernatural power.  Someone does you a favour, you feel obligated to give back a favour.  Someone gives you a huge gift, you feel obligated to them.

 

You sacrifice a goat or a sheep or a child (something that is precious to you) to your god on an altar and you expect reciprocation of that "gift" from your god.  This sort of gift giving is something that happens all the time, between companies, couples in a relationship, parents and child, you name it, and in the same way, you expect your sacrifice to god will cement your relationship with him / her / it and curry his / her / it's favour.  People also give gifts to appease other parties for wrongdoing eg. victim compensation, buying your other half some flowers after a massive fight etc.

 

So, anyway, back to Christianity... the Christian god is super aggrieved with mankind because they are sinful and displease him / her  / it and therefore he / she / it would like some appeasement. Except the Christian god is super generous and gives you his child equivalent in Jesus and gets the wicked Roman empire to sacrifice him for you.  All you have to do is be grateful for being let off from your obligations twice... once in actually having to give anything up (goat / sheep / child) and the second time in actually having to do any work / bloodletting at the altar.  Super!

 

Its sort of like a class action lawsuit I suppose.  You buy a iPad, find it doesn't work as promised, feel aggrieved and sue Apple for compensation. Except you LURVE Apple and are a total fanboi.  So you give Apple the money with which to pay you compensation.

 

Its sort of twisted, but its proven to captivate people.  I can testify when I was a Christian, I felt super grateful for this "gift".  Its not a car or a house or even the planet but the actually the right to live!

 

If I had a time machine, I would go back in time to briefly admire the person who thought it up, and then give him or her a slap in the face.  Asshole!

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"God loved you so much he ripped the skin off his son".  Let us sing praise.  How marvelous, how wonderful, God tore up, his only child..."

You know something, Christians, I have had a pet dog.  I don't have him anymore as he has died of old age already.  But let's call him, "Mory", my only son, for he was a son to me, and I loved him as much as any mother or father loves a child.  Mory was loved, and I once almost broke an arm trying to protect him from being hurt.  Now imagine that back when Mory was alive, someone had shown up on my doorstep and said "Miss Rachel, we need for you to sacrifice Mory.  You see, we need him for medical experimentation.  You see, Miss Rachel, a disease called Sin is spreading.  If you let us experiment on Mory, we can cure Sin and stop it's spread.  We can save humanity.  We can save you too, Rachel.  But if you do not give us Mory, you and all humanity are doomed."  Do you know what I would say?  I, who am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a saint or a holy or a god?  I would say "fuck off!".  I would say "then it looks like we will all be damned."  I would say that my Mory will not shed a drop of blood for me.  Not for me and not for anyone, and to hell with anyone that suggests that he should.  I would say that no creature should be demanded to spill it's blood for another, and if that's the way of things, then the way of things is wrong, and let us be damned then. And I, Rachel the Sinful, would put God the Father to shame. 

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"God loved you so much he ripped the skin off his son".  Let us sing praise.  How marvelous, how wonderful, God tore up, his only child..."

You know something, Christians, I have had a pet dog.  I don't have him anymore as he has died of old age already.  But let's call him, "Mory", my only son, for he was a son to me, and I loved him as much as any mother or father loves a child.  Mory was loved, and I once almost broke an arm trying to protect him from being hurt.  Now imagine that back when Mory was alive, someone had shown up on my doorstep and said "Miss Rachel, we need for you to sacrifice Mory.  You see, we need him for medical experimentation.  You see, Miss Rachel, a disease called Sin is spreading.  If you let us experiment on Mory, we can cure Sin and stop it's spread.  We can save humanity.  We can save you too, Rachel.  But if you do not give us Mory, you and all humanity are doomed."  Do you know what I would say?  I, who am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a saint or a holy or a god?  I would say "fuck off!".  I would say "then it looks like we will all be damned."  I would say that my Mory will not shed a drop of blood for me.  Not for me and not for anyone, and to hell with anyone that suggests that he should.  I would say that no creature should be demanded to spill it's blood for another, and if that's the way of things, then the way of things is wrong, and let us be damned then. And I, Rachel the Sinful, would put God the Father to shame. 

Preach it, sister!  And I agree.  I would never sacrifice my pets, my children, my husband, or anybody; what a ridiculous concept that is.  If god is so great, he can stop things in other ways -- including just "un-making" it -- and not demand the bloody painful death of one of his beings.

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"God loved you so much he ripped the skin off his son".  Let us sing praise.  How marvelous, how wonderful, God tore up, his only child..."

You know something, Christians, I have had a pet dog.  I don't have him anymore as he has died of old age already.  But let's call him, "Mory", my only son, for he was a son to me, and I loved him as much as any mother or father loves a child.  Mory was loved, and I once almost broke an arm trying to protect him from being hurt.  Now imagine that back when Mory was alive, someone had shown up on my doorstep and said "Miss Rachel, we need for you to sacrifice Mory.  You see, we need him for medical experimentation.  You see, Miss Rachel, a disease called Sin is spreading.  If you let us experiment on Mory, we can cure Sin and stop it's spread.  We can save humanity.  We can save you too, Rachel.  But if you do not give us Mory, you and all humanity are doomed."  Do you know what I would say?  I, who am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a saint or a holy or a god?  I would say "fuck off!".  I would say "then it looks like we will all be damned."  I would say that my Mory will not shed a drop of blood for me.  Not for me and not for anyone, and to hell with anyone that suggests that he should.  I would say that no creature should be demanded to spill it's blood for another, and if that's the way of things, then the way of things is wrong, and let us be damned then. And I, Rachel the Sinful, would put God the Father to shame. 

Preach it, sister!  And I agree.  I would never sacrifice my pets, my children, my husband, or anybody; what a ridiculous concept that is.  If god is so great, he can stop things in other ways -- including just "un-making" it -- and not demand the bloody painful death of one of his beings.

 

 

The whole idea of a blood sacrifice of himself essentially, always struck me as weird. 

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Hey LittleRed

 

I identify with much of your story - my parents are also not whackos, they are intelligent and devout. There was never any reason not to trust them on matters of faith, because they are sensible, mature, rational, educated, kind, gracious and well-adjusted individuals. Somehow they make the religion seem perfectly normal and reasonable. Many of the small church communities that I attended growing up were the same. I never saw religion as a strange or bad thing until I allowed myself to see it through the eyes of an atheist, which wasn't until a year and a half ago, in my late twenties. Falling in love with said atheist certainly played a part in my subsequent deconversion, which was grueling, and it never really feels like it's ever quite over, does it?

 

I haven't written my extimony yet, but have been devouring ex-c articles and extimonies for about a year. I'm still conflicted, because when you have come from such a sensible background, there is less to rebel against or laugh at, and more to seriously ponder - am I right in not believing this anymore, or am I really just deceived? I look back over my journals and I know that I tried everything in my power at the time to hold on to my faith. But I keep second-guessing the whole thing and thinking 'maybe this was God's way of getting me to discover him for myself as an adult, instead of riding my parents coattails as I had always done'...

 

And it doesn't seem to matter how much atheist material I read on ex-c and elsewhere, I just can't settle on an 'evidence only' worldview - I have to exercise faith that there is some kind of unknown 'why', and that whether science can explain it yet or not, it's there. It's remarkable to think that the universe and human consciousness could have come about by some freakish cosmic chain of events that potentially has no purpose whatsoever, rather was just a chance happening. If it turns out that that is the case then... wow.

 

I can't find justification for a conscious god because of the problem of suffering. My mother would say 'the lord giveth and the lord taketh away' and that it's not for us to question, we are just to be grateful for whatever it is he has given to us. I am still drawn to this idea, but it just doesn't sit right with my sense of justice that a merciful god would only be merciful to some people - those who found themselves able to believe in him with only the bible and nature as their guideposts. It's a nice thought to think that someone might look at a beautiful sunset and think 'someone must have made that' and the next day someone hands them a bible and they believe it and voila they're saved. But in reality, there are just so many different reactions to a beautiful sunset and they all lead people to different philosophical conclusions. Why would that happen if a specific God wanted everyone to turn to him. Why wouldn't every seeking, questioning person be handed the correct answer, especially considering 'ask seek knock' is supposed to be 'given, found, opened' according to scripture. I have found that to be one of the most disappointing verses, because when I was desperate for the God I trusted to help me in my deepest need, I felt like I was asking an empty sky.

 

Anyway, I'm getting a little side-tracked - will expand on all this in my pending extimony.

 

The other thing I wanted to say in response to your post is that the blood sacrifice was one of the things that actually did make sense to me. It's one of the things that still scares me because the whole ideology of it is so powerful to me. In my Christian mind, God had set up this plan of redemption for his people which he had been concocting since Adam and Eve fell in the garden - giving them the skin of a dead animal to cover their nakedness was the first time a blood sacrifice was made to cover human sin, and it just went on from there. It was all about God providing and man not being able to work for it (the symbolism of the Sabbath). If someone just made this shit up based on some interesting ideas that were around at the time, and managed to extend the metaphor all the way through the old and new testaments, to that I also say... wow. It doesn't matter how much biblical history and scholarship I read, I'm still challenged by the consistent symbolic concepts that span the scriptures. Perhaps that indicates the depth of my indoctrination. I don't know.

 

I totally get the question of 'if he's god and he made everything up, the why the hell would he make up a system that required all this bloodshed and ended up with a squillion people being eternally tormented because they didn't believe in stuff'. It seems illogical and unnecessary. Then my mother's voice in my head says 'God is sovereign, if you question his ways, you are elevating yourself above him.'

 

But if I'm not meant to trust my intellect and pursue truth and answers through my own sense of reason then why did God give me a brain capable of such complex processes of examination?

 

Anyway, I could go on for hours but I'll save it for my extimony.

 

Welcome, LittleRed. Thanks for sharing.

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