Lions! Please Familiarize Yourself With 2Philovoid.

February 14, 2015

Thanks,

BAA.

February 14, 2015

Sorry, can't get anything from most of these links.

February 14, 2015

I'm not going to join Christian Forums. Derogatory remarks against Christianity and God

are not allowed so I would not be allowed to express myself there. So far 2PV has acted

properly here as as long as that continues he is alright in my book.

February 14, 2015

Sorry, can't get anything from most of these links.

Log in as a member and try again, F.

February 14, 2015

Any Lions who want learn more about 2Philovoid, but who don't want to join Christianforums can PM me.

Thanks,

BAA.

February 14, 2015

Only the first of those links worked for me after logging onto the forum.

Interesting... I don't find these two end times views compatible:

End Times View Preterist, Premillennialism

February 15, 2015

Only the first of those links worked for me after logging onto the forum.

Interesting... I don't find these two end times views compatible:
End Times View Preterist, Premillennialism

Hey TrueFreedom,

And you would be correct. What you may also want to know is that those two eschatological 'framework' labels are the closest that ChristianForums provides on their list of options from which I could attempt to describe my position.

Peace

February 15, 2015

http://www.christianforums.com/users/271496/

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=2

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=3

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=4

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=5

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=6

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=7

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=8

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=9

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=10

Thanks,

BAA.

Well, hello to you too, BAA.

Frankly, if anyone cares to know what I think, assess, evaluate, discern, believe, then feel free to get it from the horses mouth. (And if you don't care, then have a great day, enjoy the game and relax with a cold one. )

Peace

February 15, 2015

http://www.christianforums.com/users/271496/

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=2

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=3

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=4

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=5

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=6

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=7

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=8

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=9

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=10

Thanks,

BAA.

Well, hello to you too, BAA.

Frankly, if anyone cares to know what I think, assess, evaluate, discern, believe, then feel free to get it from the horses mouth. (And if you don't care, then have a great day, enjoy the game and relax with a cold one. )

Peace

Are the posts from the other site that BAA referenced "from the horse's mouth"? Do those posts delineate what you "think, assess, evaluate, discern [and/or] believe"?

February 15, 2015

http://www.christianforums.com/users/271496/

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=2

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=3

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=4

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=5

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=6

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=7

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=8

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=9

http://www.christianforums.com/search.php?searchid=6997563&pp=25&page=10

Thanks,

BAA.

Well, hello to you too, BAA.

Frankly, if anyone cares to know what I think, assess, evaluate, discern, believe, then feel free to get it from the horses mouth. (And if you don't care, then have a great day, enjoy the game and relax with a cold one. )

Peace

Are the posts from the other site that BAA referenced "from the horse's mouth"? Do those posts delineate what you "think, assess, evaluate, discern [and/or] believe"?

sdelsolray,

Yes, the posts BAA is accessing are from the "other site," which is fine by me if he wishes to "sample" for anyone's convenience. If any of you would rather peruse those for ideas, please be my guest.

Peace

February 15, 2015

Hello Philo. I believe this is my first post addressed to you. You'll have to forgive BAA and me for our mutual skepticism. Historically, the caliber of Christians on this forum is very low compared to the general Christian population (which is saying a lot considering that most Christians, like most people, are not very educated). Most Christians on this forum will follow a fairly typical script of making patently false questions, making a few antagonistic statements (e.g. "atheists should commit serial murders because they have no morality"), and then refusing to answer legitimate questions and arguments directed at them. Frankly I'm surprised by this behavior. During the six years I spent as an evangelical, my group of Christian friends consisted primarily of engineers, scientists, theologians, and other people who possessed the intellectual muscle to articulate their doctrines and theology. I am not used to unintelligent Christians, and it would seem that ex-C attracts such people.

I haven't read many of your posts yet (and I didn't read BAA's links since I couldn't access them for some reason), and I have no reason to suspect that this behavior represents you. However, we here on this forum are suspicious of Christians because of the behavior of the ambassadors for Christ whom we have received thus far. Don't get me wrong: I'm glad you're here, and I an extremely eager to have discussions with evangelical Christians. I probably don't speak for others, but I am actively seeking to engage evangelicals in dialog and debate. However it seems that where Christian visitors are concerned, ex-C is frequented by the church clown car.

If you would be an interesting and welcome poster here - and that is my hope - then I would suggest you abide by some simple rules of respect. First, and by far most importantly, when someone asks you a question please answer it directly. Don't respond by suggesting we read a book (this has been done to me by an infamous poster here called Ironhorse). Don't respond with a one sentence answer. When someone asks you a question in plain English, please just respond in kind. Secondly, please respond to others' posts in a timely manner. We all have lives outside of this forum, and certainly no one is requiring a same-day response from you. However we have posters here who have left honest questions unanswered for months. Even last year when I was writing my Ph.D. thesis and preparing for my own wedding, I found a few spare minutes a week to respond to comments that people had directed at me, based on my previous posts. So I think this is not an onerous task. Finally, please do not create more threads than you are reasonably capable of referring to. Some Christian posters perform "hit and runs" in which they create a thread with what they think are a few pithy comments, and then neglect the topics that they have started. This is a rude practice and certainly doesn't reflect well on the master whom you claim to represent.

My apologies if this sounded bombastic. Again, I have not read many of your posts, so you should know that my comments are in no way a judgment of you personally. Rather they are the product of many low-quality Christian posters here. It is my hope that you will be the first exception I have encountered to the rule of unproductive and unfruitful dialog with Christians here in the Lion's Den.

February 15, 2015

Hello Philo. I believe this is my first post addressed to you. You'll have to forgive BAA and me for our mutual skepticism. Historically, the caliber of Christians on this forum is very low compared to the general Christian population (which is saying a lot considering that most Christians, like most people, are not very educated). Most Christians on this forum will follow a fairly typical script of making patently false questions, making a few antagonistic statements (e.g. "atheists should commit serial murders because they have no morality"), and then refusing to answer legitimate questions and arguments directed at them. Frankly I'm surprised by this behavior. During the six years I spent as an evangelical, my group of Christian friends consisted primarily of engineers, scientists, theologians, and other people who possessed the intellectual muscle to articulate their doctrines and theology. I am not used to unintelligent Christians, and it would seem that ex-C attracts such people.

I haven't read many of your posts yet (and I didn't read BAA's links since I couldn't access them for some reason), and I have no reason to suspect that this behavior represents you. However, we here on this forum are suspicious of Christians because of the behavior of the ambassadors for Christ whom we have received thus far. Don't get me wrong: I'm glad you're here, and I an extremely eager to have discussions with evangelical Christians. I probably don't speak for others, but I am actively seeking to engage evangelicals in dialog and debate. However it seems that where Christian visitors are concerned, ex-C is frequented by the church clown car.

If you would be an interesting and welcome poster here - and that is my hope - then I would suggest you abide by some simple rules of respect. First, and by far most importantly, when someone asks you a question please answer it directly. Don't respond by suggesting we read a book (this has been done to me by an infamous poster here called Ironhorse). Don't respond with a one sentence answer. When someone asks you a question in plain English, please just respond in kind. Secondly, please respond to others' posts in a timely manner. We all have lives outside of this forum, and certainly no one is requiring a same-day response from you. However we have posters here who have left honest questions unanswered for months. Even last year when I was writing my Ph.D. thesis and preparing for my own wedding, I found a few spare minutes a week to respond to comments that people had directed at me, based on my previous posts. So I think this is not an onerous task. Finally, please do not create more threads than you are reasonably capable of referring to. Some Christian posters perform "hit and runs" in which they create a thread with what they think are a few pithy comments, and then neglect the topics that they have started. This is a rude practice and certainly doesn't reflect well on the master whom you claim to represent.

My apologies if this sounded bombastic. Again, I have not read many of your posts, so you should know that my comments are in no way a judgment of you personally. Rather they are the product of many low-quality Christian posters here. It is my hope that you will be the first exception I have encountered to the rule of unproductive and unfruitful dialog with Christians here in the Lion's Den.

Hello Bhim,

I fully understand your concern about my possible conduct here, and as I mentioned one of the other members, I also respect the reasons as to why many people come to this specific website, I will not attempt to demean anyone, nor take cheap shots as some do who, unfortunately, claim the title of, "Christian."

Additionally, I appreciate the fact that many here are former ministers, pastors, theologians, missionaries, as well as academics of various stripes. So, despite the possibly awkward social context in which I may find myself occasionally with some fellow posters, one thing I value is the education factor.

I also understand that everyone would like fair shake if they ask a me question, and I will do my best to interact with most of you as time allows. However, while I empathize with the desire to have requests for responses to be met in a fitting and timely manner, being that I am married, have a kid, have a job, etc., like many of you, I can't make any kind of promise that someone's schedule structure, or what their preferences are for communication, or the way in which they are psychologically predisposed to defining a view of "timeliness," will be allows taken into account, or met and fully fulfilled by me. But, I will do what I can. I'm sure that since many here are experienced and educated, there are some productive conversations that can be had, as well as the possibility that I'll learn a lot of useful things, and acquire useful content, along the way.

I will say upfront that I am not one to desire to create a plethora of running threads; I don't enjoy spreading myself thin and not being able to take up a topic in more depth, especially if I may have something to learn form another individual. Although occasionally you may find that I'll fire off a one or two sentence salvo here or there. My doing so is not meant to place myself in the association of the "clown-car," but to perhaps stir up a thought or two. It is not something I will make use of on a regular basis.

One of my intents here is to practice my writing and analytical skills as they are. The Religion/Non-Religion Divide makes an ample ground for that endeavor. Perhaps someday I'll improve my technical ability enough that I too will accomplish a PhD--which for anyone is no mean feat my any means. (And if you have done so, many Kudos to you, my friend, as well as to anyone else on this forum who has that level of expertise and education.)

[And apparently, I am still working on figuring out the response set-up for posting here. I apologize for my technical difficulties.]

Peace

February 15, 2015

Thank you for your reply Philo. I'm glad you seek discussion with posters of sufficient intellect (well, you said educational attainment, but I find that the two are highly correlated).

Like I said, I understand that everyone here has a life outside of ex-C, and indeed this forum is probably the smallest component of that life. I think, though, that the expectation of a timely response is weighted by a poster's time spent on this forum. For example, a person who logs onto this site once a month cannot be expected to respond to posts more frequently than this. However we do have posters who are here regularly, but who leave important questions unanswered for weeks at a time. BAA has been particularly active in combating this; he has compiled open questions into a single, convenient thread in hope of a reply, but rarely does he receive one. When we do get answers to our questions and challenges, they are vague and intellectually vacuous. That's why I've simply stopped conversing with posters (Christian and otherwise, but mostly Christian) who don't seem particularly bright.

Again, I hope you don't feel this reflects at all on you. I'm just trying to give you a feel for the context into which you, the Christian on an ex-Christian forum, are wading.

On a related topic, I am only speaking for myself here when I say that I am not looking for anyone to respect my beliefs or lack of beliefs. For reference I am Hindu, not atheist, and I am very open about my hatred of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Surely given this, I can't expect any Christian to respect my beliefs either. Feel free to tell me what you think on any topic. Really all I ask is that you do so in more than one line of text, and that you respond to legitimate challenges and points.

February 16, 2015

Hello 2Philovoid.

First off, I'm glad that Bhim has offered some explanation for the skeptical and less than welcoming tone of my posts about you.

Here's a little more background detail.

The 'resident' Christians currently posting at Ex-C have proven themselves (by their behavior) to be less than honest, less than trustworthy and quite lacking in the good fruit that should be the hallmark of those who are true disciples of Jesus. In a nutshell, their bad spiritual fruit betrays them. (Please note that it gives me no pleasure to write this... I'm simply reporting what has happened and what can be easily verified.)

Sadly, the 'past' Christians (those who have now departed or been banned) were little better.

Some left when they were exposed as liars, some left when their arguments were soundly refuted and some left when they realized that they were unable articulate their beliefs in a coherent way. Others who were unable to control themselves were cautioned and then banned. Some have even resorted to tirades of foul language and insults, personal abuse and the violation of personal confidentiality. I'm sure you'll agree... very sad and also very un-Christian!

So 2P, perhaps you can further appreciate what Bhim meant about the low caliber of Christians in this forum?

But now it's time for me to extend an apology to you for prejudging you in those 'low' terms. I shouldn't have done so. That was a mistake on my part and I freely own up to it. In my defense I can only say that my suspicion of you was an acquired behavior, borne of many years of dealing with the skulduggery, evasion and obfuscation that are the hallmark behaviors of these 'other' Christians. Once again, I shouldn't have let what I know about these people color my perception of you. I'm sorry about that.

.

Hopefully my words will have cleared the air between us and opened up the possibility of fruitful dialog.

Assuming this is so I'm sorry to say that I do have one area of concern about your presence here. I've taken the time to read and digest your stated reasons for being here and I have no problem at all with what you've written. The notion of self-improvement is a worthy one and I readily agree with it. But as far as I can see there still remains a certain tension between your presence and the express purpose of this site.

To explain further.

The Terms of Service (TOS) and Community Rules state... "These forums exist for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind." So, in terms of Christianity, that would be helping Christians to leave Christianity behind. Now, the arrival of a highly-intelligent, eloquent and well-read Christian (yourself) in the one area of this forum where Christian evangelization is permitted (the Lion's Den) causes me a measure of concern. I'm concerned 2P because I'm struggling to reconcile your presence in the Den with the purpose of Ex-Christian.net.

If tomorrow you offer up a convincing argument for Christianity, how can this be squared with the purpose of this site?

Rightly or wrongly I perceive that such an argument can only be opposed to the very purpose of this site.

As I'm sure you'll be aware (as a long-standing member of Christianforums) the numbers of those reading a given thread are a bit like an iceberg - there are many more silent and 'hidden' readers lurking under the surface than those who are actively participating in it. When it comes to Ex-C these lurkers are usually wavering/doubting Christians who are giving serious thought to deconverting from their faith and rejecting Jesus Christ once and for all.

Since this site exists specifically to serve their needs, how would your convincing argument for Jesus help these people to reject him?

Your convincing argument may well be an act of evangelization on your part - even though you didn't intend it to be.

You may well turn some lurkers back to Christ, even though it was never your intention of doing so.

So can you help me out here, 2P...?

.

Can you please set my mind at rest when it comes to your stated reasons for being here versus your unintended influence on the lurking Christians that come here for help in leaving Christianity?

Thanks,

BAA.

February 16, 2015

So far 2PV hasn't been proselytizing or defending the Bible here. Why not just leave well enough alone? I don't care if he had an argument for Jesus as long as he put it in the Christian Forums where it belongs.

February 16, 2015

To explain further.

The Terms of Service (TOS) and Community Rules state... "These forums exist for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind." So, in terms of Christianity, that would be helping Christians to leave Christianity behind. Now, the arrival of a highly-intelligent, eloquent and well-read Christian (yourself) in the one area of this forum where Christian evangelization is permitted (the Lion's Den) causes me a measure of concern. I'm concerned 2P because I'm struggling to reconcile your presence in the Den with the purpose of Ex-Christian.net.

So the rule listed below for the Den is in direct violation of the Website's express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind.

(Lion's Den)

"This is the section of the board where Christian opinions, arguments, sermons and so on will be more-or-less tolerated. Aggressive evangelism is permitted in this section, but aggressive evangelists should be ready to be met by equally aggressive resistance."

Contradition...contradiction...illogical...illogical.... Kirk is the Crea-TOR. Must STER--IL--IZE imperfect religious lifeforms...

(but I digress. lol. gives BAA a big ole illogical hug)

:-)

February 16, 2015

February 17, 2015

Hello (BAA),

Hello 2Philovoid.

**First off, I'm glad that Bhim has offered some explanation for the skeptical and less than welcoming tone of my posts about you.

Hello BAA. Good to hear from you, and thank you for the follow-up and the effort to clarify your reasoning. (By the way, I had to chuckle when I saw your use of Anti-Spock as an avatar; that’s a clever set of insinuations on your part.)

**Here's a little more background detail.

**The 'resident' Christians currently posting at Ex-C have proven themselves (by their behavior) to be less than honest, less than trustworthy and quite lacking in the good fruit that should be the hallmark of those who are true disciples of Jesus. In a nutshell, their bad spiritual fruit betrays them. (Please note that it gives me no pleasure to write this... I'm simply reporting what has happened and what can be easily verified.)

Yes, as an occasional lurker on this site for several years, I’ve noticed that some individuals identify themselves as ‘Christian’ also fail to present an honest and respectful social manner, which is obviously not in keeping with their profession of faith. But, as I told my son not long ago, an unfortunate downside to Churchianity is that the Church many times translates ignorance from the outside and ushers it into the inner pews. So, I quite understand that various individuals who have identified ‘Christianly’ have already set a negative precedent here for quite some time. Sad, but true.

**Sadly, the 'past' Christians (those who have now departed or been banned) were little better.

**Some left when they were exposed as liars, some left when their arguments were soundly refuted and some left when they realized that they were unable articulate their beliefs in a coherent way. Others who were unable to control themselves were cautioned and then banned. Some have even resorted to tirades of foul language and insults, personal abuse and the violation of personal confidentiality. I'm sure you'll agree... very sad and also very un-Christian!

Yes, definitely. I think the expectations on this website are for the most part clear and sensible. Moreover, my approach to discussion with other people starts with the fact that we are all human beings, and we each deserve general respect, even when we don’t see eye-to-eye.

**So 2P, perhaps you can further appreciate what Bhim meant about the low caliber of Christians in this forum?

**But now it's time for me to extend an apology to you for prejudging you in those 'low' terms. I shouldn't have done so. That was a mistake on my part and I freely own up to it. In my defense I can only say that my suspicion of you was an acquired behavior, borne of many years of dealing with the skulduggery, evasion and obfuscation that are the hallmark behaviors of these 'other' Christians. Once again, I shouldn't have let what I know about these people color my perception of you. I'm sorry about that.

I don’t feel affronted by your initial reaction, and I’m not holding a grudge. Moreover, I don’t perceive that anyone has perpetrated what I would qualify as an ‘injustice’ on my presence here thus far. Everyone has been cordial. In fact, I empathize with your guardedness against religious antagonists who just happen to show up here, and I say this because, as we both know, being a Christian doesn’t protect one from having to defend himself from a tangle with a fellow ‘Christian’ claimant. Anyway, no apology necessary.

**Hopefully my words will have cleared the air between us and opened up the possibility of fruitful dialog.

**Assuming this is so I'm sorry to say that I do have one area of concern about your presence here. I've taken the time to read and digest your stated reasons for being here and I have no problem at all with what you've written. The notion of self-improvement is a worthy one and I readily agree with it. But as far as I can see there still remains a certain tension between your presence and the express purpose of this site.

Sure, strange situations can happen when using the Transporter during an Ion-Storm (i.e. Mirror-Mirror) Right, Mr. Anti-Spock?

**To explain further.

**The Terms of Service (TOS) and Community Rules state... "These forums exist for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind." So, in terms of Christianity, that would be helping Christians to leave Christianity behind. Now, the arrival of a highly-intelligent, eloquent and well-read Christian (yourself) in the one area of this forum where Christian evangelization is permitted (the Lion's Den) causes me a measure of concern. I'm concerned 2P because I'm struggling to reconcile your presence in the Den with the purpose of Ex-Christian.net.

So, is the Lion’s Den intended to be a special form of ‘Encouragement’ (or entertainment), analogous in some way to those events that took place long ago in the Roman Coliseum? Just wondering.

**If tomorrow you offer up a convincing argument for Christianity, how can this be squared with the purpose of this site?

**Rightly or wrongly I perceive that such an argument can only be opposed to the very purpose of this site.

That’s definitely a legitimate concern, I know, and out of respect for you guys, I wouldn’t want to challenge the purpose(s) of your website, or rock the boat. So, if the Lion’s Den is problematic, in what other sub-sections may a Christian post so as to avoid becoming entangled in a kind of Kobayashi Maru? Or is this problematic in your estimation all the way around?

Peace,

2PhiloVoid

February 17, 2015

Hello (BAA),

Hello 2Philovoid.

**First off, I'm glad that Bhim has offered some explanation for the skeptical and less than welcoming tone of my posts about you.

Hello BAA. Good to hear from you, and thank you for the follow-up and the effort to clarify your reasoning. (By the way, I had to chuckle when I saw your use of Anti-Spock as an avatar; that’s a clever set of insinuations on your part.)

**Here's a little more background detail.

**The 'resident' Christians currently posting at Ex-C have proven themselves (by their behavior) to be less than honest, less than trustworthy and quite lacking in the good fruit that should be the hallmark of those who are true disciples of Jesus. In a nutshell, their bad spiritual fruit betrays them. (Please note that it gives me no pleasure to write this... I'm simply reporting what has happened and what can be easily verified.)

Yes, as an occasional lurker on this site for several years, I’ve noticed that some individuals identify themselves as ‘Christian’ also fail to present an honest and respectful social manner, which is obviously not in keeping with their profession of faith. But, as I told my son not long ago, an unfortunate downside to Churchianity is that the Church many times translates ignorance from the outside and ushers it into the inner pews. So, I quite understand that various individuals who have identified ‘Christianly’ have already set a negative precedent here for quite some time. Sad, but true.

**Sadly, the 'past' Christians (those who have now departed or been banned) were little better.

**Some left when they were exposed as liars, some left when their arguments were soundly refuted and some left when they realized that they were unable articulate their beliefs in a coherent way. Others who were unable to control themselves were cautioned and then banned. Some have even resorted to tirades of foul language and insults, personal abuse and the violation of personal confidentiality. I'm sure you'll agree... very sad and also very un-Christian!

Yes, definitely. I think the expectations on this website are for the most part clear and sensible. Moreover, my approach to discussion with other people starts with the fact that we are all human beings, and we each deserve general respect, even when we don’t see eye-to-eye.

**So 2P, perhaps you can further appreciate what Bhim meant about the low caliber of Christians in this forum?

**But now it's time for me to extend an apology to you for prejudging you in those 'low' terms. I shouldn't have done so. That was a mistake on my part and I freely own up to it. In my defense I can only say that my suspicion of you was an acquired behavior, borne of many years of dealing with the skulduggery, evasion and obfuscation that are the hallmark behaviors of these 'other' Christians. Once again, I shouldn't have let what I know about these people color my perception of you. I'm sorry about that.

I don’t feel affronted by your initial reaction, and I’m not holding a grudge. Moreover, I don’t perceive that anyone has perpetrated what I would qualify as an ‘injustice’ on my presence here thus far. Everyone has been cordial. In fact, I empathize with your guardedness against religious antagonists who just happen to show up here, and I say this because, as we both know, being a Christian doesn’t protect one from having to defend himself from a tangle with a fellow ‘Christian’ claimant. Anyway, no apology necessary.

**Hopefully my words will have cleared the air between us and opened up the possibility of fruitful dialog.

**Assuming this is so I'm sorry to say that I do have one area of concern about your presence here. I've taken the time to read and digest your stated reasons for being here and I have no problem at all with what you've written. The notion of self-improvement is a worthy one and I readily agree with it. But as far as I can see there still remains a certain tension between your presence and the express purpose of this site.

Sure, strange situations can happen when using the Transporter during an Ion-Storm (i.e. Mirror-Mirror) Right, Mr. Anti-Spock?

**To explain further.

**The Terms of Service (TOS) and Community Rules state... "These forums exist for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind." So, in terms of Christianity, that would be helping Christians to leave Christianity behind. Now, the arrival of a highly-intelligent, eloquent and well-read Christian (yourself) in the one area of this forum where Christian evangelization is permitted (the Lion's Den) causes me a measure of concern. I'm concerned 2P because I'm struggling to reconcile your presence in the Den with the purpose of Ex-Christian.net.

So, is the Lion’s Den intended to be a special form of ‘Encouragement’ (or entertainment), analogous in some way to those events that took place long ago in the Roman Coliseum? Just wondering.

**If tomorrow you offer up a convincing argument for Christianity, how can this be squared with the purpose of this site?

**Rightly or wrongly I perceive that such an argument can only be opposed to the very purpose of this site.

That’s definitely a legitimate concern, I know, and out of respect for you guys, I wouldn’t want to challenge the purpose(s) of your website, or rock the boat. So, if the Lion’s Den is problematic, in what other sub-sections may a Christian post so as to avoid becoming entangled in a kind of Kobayashi Maru? Or is this problematic in your estimation all the way around?

Peace,

2PhiloVoid

If you're a Christian and you're in the Den...it's Kobayashi Maru for You!

Midniterider

Kobayashi Maru Nazi.

February 17, 2015

Or the Corbomite Maneuver...where you bluff your way out of certain ~~annihilation~~ deconversion to Atheism!

.

(I'll get back to you in a few hours 2Philovoid and respond to post # 18 when I have the luxury of more time.)

Thanks,

BAA.

February 17, 2015

Hello again, 2Philovoid.

Hello (BAA),

Hello 2Philovoid.

**First off, I'm glad that Bhim has offered some explanation for the skeptical and less than welcoming tone of my posts about you.

Hello BAA. Good to hear from you, and thank you for the follow-up and the effort to clarify your reasoning. (By the way, I had to chuckle when I saw your use of Anti-Spock as an avatar; that’s a clever set of insinuations on your part.)

That I'm well qualified to play Devil's Advocate in this forum...?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Apple_%28episode%29 ...the last paragraph of Act 4 ..?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/The_Omega_Glory_%28episode%29 ...in this episode Spock is likened to, "the evil one".

**Here's a little more background detail.

**The 'resident' Christians currently posting at Ex-C have proven themselves (by their behavior) to be less than honest, less than trustworthy and quite lacking in the good fruit that should be the hallmark of those who are true disciples of Jesus. In a nutshell, their bad spiritual fruit betrays them. (Please note that it gives me no pleasure to write this... I'm simply reporting what has happened and what can be easily verified.)

Yes, as an occasional lurker on this site for several years, I’ve noticed that some individuals identify themselves as ‘Christian’ also fail to present an honest and respectful social manner, which is obviously not in keeping with their profession of faith. But, as I told my son not long ago, an unfortunate downside to Churchianity is that the Church many times translates ignorance from the outside and ushers it into the inner pews. So, I quite understand that various individuals who have identified ‘Christianly’ have already set a negative precedent here for quite some time. Sad, but true.

Agree.

**Sadly, the 'past' Christians (those who have now departed or been banned) were little better.

**Some left when they were exposed as liars, some left when their arguments were soundly refuted and some left when they realized that they were unable articulate their beliefs in a coherent way. Others who were unable to control themselves were cautioned and then banned. Some have even resorted to tirades of foul language and insults, personal abuse and the violation of personal confidentiality. I'm sure you'll agree... very sad and also very un-Christian!

Yes, definitely. I think the expectations on this website are for the most part clear and sensible. Moreover, my approach to discussion with other people starts with the fact that we are all human beings, and we each deserve general respect, even when we don’t see eye-to-eye.

Thank you. I concur.

**So 2P, perhaps you can further appreciate what Bhim meant about the low caliber of Christians in this forum?

**But now it's time for me to extend an apology to you for prejudging you in those 'low' terms. I shouldn't have done so. That was a mistake on my part and I freely own up to it. In my defense I can only say that my suspicion of you was an acquired behavior, borne of many years of dealing with the skulduggery, evasion and obfuscation that are the hallmark behaviors of these 'other' Christians. Once again, I shouldn't have let what I know about these people color my perception of you. I'm sorry about that.

I don’t feel affronted by your initial reaction, and I’m not holding a grudge. Moreover, I don’t perceive that anyone has perpetrated what I would qualify as an ‘injustice’ on my presence here thus far. Everyone has been cordial. In fact, I empathize with your guardedness against religious antagonists who just happen to show up here, and I say this because, as we both know, being a Christian doesn’t protect one from having to defend himself from a tangle with a fellow ‘Christian’ claimant. Anyway, no apology necessary.

And my thanks for these kind words too.

**Hopefully my words will have cleared the air between us and opened up the possibility of fruitful dialog.

**Assuming this is so I'm sorry to say that I do have one area of concern about your presence here. I've taken the time to read and digest your stated reasons for being here and I have no problem at all with what you've written. The notion of self-improvement is a worthy one and I readily agree with it. But as far as I can see there still remains a certain tension between your presence and the express purpose of this site.

Sure, strange situations can happen when using the Transporter during an Ion-Storm (i.e. Mirror-Mirror) Right, Mr. Anti-Spock?

Perhaps in the Federation, but not any more in the mirror universe.

Kira Nerys, the Intendant of DS9 mentioned that since the Halkan incident, all transporters have safeguards built into them to prevent these 'strange' events from occuring.

**To explain further.

**The Terms of Service (TOS) and Community Rules state... "These forums exist for the express purpose of encouraging those who have decided to leave religion behind." So, in terms of Christianity, that would be helping Christians to leave Christianity behind. Now, the arrival of a highly-intelligent, eloquent and well-read Christian (yourself) in the one area of this forum where Christian evangelization is permitted (the Lion's Den) causes me a measure of concern. I'm concerned 2P because I'm struggling to reconcile your presence in the Den with the purpose of Ex-Christian.net.

So, is the Lion’s Den intended to be a special form of ‘Encouragement’ (or entertainment), analogous in some way to those events that took place long ago in the Roman Coliseum? Just wondering.

That's a very good question, 2P!

It's the area where Christians are (metaphorically) hunted down, killed and eaten by we Lions. Speaking only for myself, I DO consider this to be encouragement for the lurkers. If they also find it entertaining... well, good for them!

**If tomorrow you offer up a convincing argument for Christianity, how can this be squared with the purpose of this site?

**Rightly or wrongly I perceive that such an argument can only be opposed to the very purpose of this site.

That’s definitely a legitimate concern, I know, and out of respect for you guys, I wouldn’t want to challenge the purpose(s) of your website, or rock the boat. So, if the Lion’s Den is problematic, in what other sub-sections may a Christian post so as to avoid becoming entangled in a kind of Kobayashi Maru? Or is this problematic in your estimation all the way around?

Ok 2P, I read you loud and clear. You don't want to make waves.

But here's how I (rightly or wrongly) see all Christian activity in the Den.

There's no middle ground. Christians in the Den either have a positive or negative effect on the minds of the lurkers. Those exhibiting bad fruit have a kind of negative ministry, driving the lurkers and waverers away from Christ more effectively than we Ex-Christians ever could. Those displaying respect, tolerance and courtesy do the opposite, causing the lurkers to waver and to think about giving Christ and Christianity 'another chance'.

So while you may not openly or intentionally have any wish to influence those silently observing what happens in the Den, they will (imho) nevertheless take note of your good conduct - just as they will also take note of these other "Christians" bad conduct. Your words, your arguments and your behavior will have an effect.

I'm sorry to say but I can only think of one way to resolve the tension between the purpose of this site and the freedom allowed to you in the Den. Duderonomy summed it up, here... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/66413-and-so-we-wait/page-11#.VOOanvmsUuk ...in post # 219.

Posted Today, 10:44 AM

Tame the lions? No, I don't think so. Sooner or later the fun will begin.

If 2PV is a Christian like he says he is, we're dealing with a person that believes a ghost got a virgin pregnant so she could give birth to himself so he could sacrifice himself to himself so he could forgive us. Then he raised himself from the dead, and gave 2PV the mandate of telling us all about it.

When the nicey nicey stuff is done, it'll be on.

The only alternative I can see is that 2PV is some kind of Christian In Name Only that doesn't believe 3/4 of his own holy book. If that's the case, he's invented his own religion, and won't be much different than those we've been dealing with lately at all.

Sooner or later... after the honeymoon's over... it'll be war between us.

I'm sorry 2P, but I think it's inevitable. You come across as a good person, but I have to put the future well being of the lurkers and de-converting Christians first. Their needs take priority over any amity or camaraderie you and I might share. Please believe me when I say that it gives me no pleasure to write these words. I don't consider telling you this as any kind of entertainment. Far from it. It saddens me that I must eventually treat you as an impediment to the mental and emotional well being of those wishing to permanently free themselves from Christ and from Christianity.

If you believe there's another way or if you think I'm wrong, please don't hesitate to say so.

Thanks,

BAA.

February 17, 2015

Enough with the introductions and foreplay. Let's get to the substance.

February 18, 2015

BAA (BornAgainAtheist),

That I'm well qualified to play Devil's Advocate in this forum...?

http://en.memory-alp...Apple_(episode) ...the last paragraph of Act 4 ..?

http://en.memory-alp...Glory_(episode) ...in this episode Spock is likened to, "the evil one".

Actually, when I saw your 'Anti-Spock' avatar, I though you were implying that your role was that of an Imperialistic Sentinel, along with any praxis that might go with that role. However, Devil’s Advocate wasn’t quite what I had surmised. I don't like to assume straight off the bat that people are pure evil.

I see what you’re attempting to say. However, the first Star Trek episode you cite above seems (to me) to be insinuating a somewhat different meaning to the ‘real’ Spock, and this in contradistinction to one that might pertain to an Anti-Spock. For instance, in the “Apple” episode, Spock expresses actual concern over the Federation’s intervention on behalf of the natives. Spock wonders if that intervention could pose social repercussions for the natives. Moreover, his concern seems to assign an allusion of “Satanic” handiwork on the part of the Federation. If it had been Anti-Spock addressing the same issue, I don’t think he would care one way or the other in such a case—in fact, he’d probably encourage a takeover and subjugation of those same natives. As for the second episode you cited….preposterous!

That's a very good question, 2P!

It's the area where Christians are (metaphorically) hunted down, killed and eaten by we Lions. Speaking only for myself, I DO consider this to be encouragement for the lurkers. If they also find it entertaining... well, good for them!

Sure, “metaphorically,” of course. I do so enjoy studying “metaphors,” especially those that involve the possibility that I might be eaten. Thank you for elucidating clearly the nature of your “Den,” BAA. I’ll know now to carry plenty of kitty snacks with me just in case!

Ok 2P, I read you loud and clear. You don't want to make waves.

But here's how I (rightly or wrongly) see all Christian activity in the Den.

…well, how can you be “wrong” since you’re defending your websites industry? Unless…..?

There's no middle ground. Christians in the Den either have a positive or negative effect on the minds of the lurkers. Those exhibiting bad fruit have a kind of negative ministry, driving the lurkers and waverers away from Christ more effectively than we Ex-Christians ever could. Those displaying respect, tolerance and courtesy do the opposite, causing the lurkers to waver and to think about giving Christ and Christianity 'another chance'.

Ah, I see.

So while you may not openly or intentionally have any wish to influence those silently observing what happens in the Den, they will (imho) nevertheless take note of your good conduct - just as they will also take note of these other "Christians" bad conduct. Your words, your arguments and your behavior will have an effect.

I'm sorry to say but I can only think of one way to resolve the tension between the purpose of this site and the freedom allowed to you in the Den. Duderonomy summed it up, here... http://www.ex-christ...11#.VOOanvmsUuk ...in post # 219.

Sooner or later... after the honeymoon's over... it'll be war between us.

That’s sweet of you guys. The irony is that this language sounds a wee bit like that of some of my “Christian” compatriots who think the Bible literally tells them to make an ongoing, even dare I say, ‘emboldened’ spiritual and political putsch for the Lord, with all the hammy bravado that many times goes with it.

I'm sorry 2P, but I think it's inevitable. You come across as a good person, but I have to put the future well being of the lurkers and de-converting Christians first. Their needs take priority over any amity or camaraderie you and I might share. Please believe me when I say that it gives me no pleasure to write these words. I don't consider telling you this as any kind of entertainment. Far from it. It saddens me that I must eventually treat you as an impediment to the mental and emotional well being of those wishing to permanently free themselves from Christ and from Christianity.

If you believe there's another way or if you think I'm wrong, please don't hesitate to say so.

BAA, thank you for your sincere warnings. Your integrity is noted, and as I further ruminate about how best to proceed on your site, I’ll remember, too, your concern regarding my possible treatment as an “impediment.”

Speaking in more philosophical terms, I’d like to think that there is ‘another’ way. If there is such an alternative way, I think it would have to be one that implies my being invited in, rather than my being seen as an invader. So, in my effort to suggest a ‘3^rd’ way, I offer the following protocol for myself. My presence here would be provisioned by the following measures:

1) That I ONLY enter the Lion’s Den by invitation from an individual member of Ex-C (through a PM notification, for instance), for discussion on a predetermined topic. Otherwise, I do not step foot in the Lion’s Den, plain and simple, thus giving you less to worry about, and me the opportunity to keep more of…my spiritual flesh.

2) That IF I respond within any of the other sections of Ex-C (those allowed, of course), I must refrain from any kind of reference to the Bible or Christianity (with the caveat that I can speak in academic terms within the normal bounds of the fields of philosophy, sociology, psychology, and/or science).

Would the two provisions I’ve presented above meet with your approval? Or do you have an emendation or two you’d like to make?

OR

We can just end the honeymoon…in which case I get to turn your Lion’s Den into PLANET HULK!!!

[Just kidding.]

…But seriously, I’m not here to coerce or force any of you to hand over your dilithium crystals.

2PhiloVoid

February 19, 2015

So what is it Philo?

Are you a True Christian™, have you invented your own religion by believing what you want to believe, are you deconverting, are you filling a void in your life because you are bored? Tell us about your Jesus.

Oh, and a word from those of us that know the Bible...don't be so fucking vague with the allegories and the parables. If you know something we don't know, tell us. If not, screw off.

A "Christian" doesn't come to a place like this to exchange recipes.

February 19, 2015

Oh, and a word from those of us that know the Bible...don't be so fucking vague with the allegories and the parables. If you know something we don't know, tell us. If not, screw off.

It is my hope that 2PhiloVoid will be the first Christian in the history of ex-C who isn't in need of this advice. It is not appropriate for Christians to espouse vagueness in this forum. To do so creates obfuscates dishonesty and falsely portrays it as profundity.

Lions! Please Familiarize Yourself With 2Philovoid.

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