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Christianity And Personal Responsibility


Penguin

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Christians,

 

Where is there room for personal responsibility within Christianity?

 

1. You are told you sin because it is in your nature, and even after attaining salvation, you will sin. Why are you expected to take responsibility for something you cannot control?

 

2. Mercy and grace are provided in the event of sin, so where is your responsibility to avoid sin?

 

3. If you rely on God for everything, where is your sense that you control yourself? Is it not true that most Christians will pray "Lord, help me out here" instead of "Lord, I got myself into this mess, so I'll get myself out?"

 

4. Why is it Christians will repent often only after their sin is exposed? How can such repentance be legitimate? A child who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar will say "sorry" because that is what he is taught to do, not what he actually feels.

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5.  When you do wrong to another individual, jesus offers you immediate forgiveness.  This provides you with a clear conscience without being compelled to go back to the person wronged and seek to make amends.  How does this lack of accountability square with the greatest commandment, to love your neighbor as yourself and even love your own enemies?

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k2xLXVY.jpg

 

so in short jesus died to forgive satan's sin

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The above graphic does seem to demonstrate the mindset of many Christians. To be clear, however, I do want a Christian to reply. Since I'm relatively new, I don't know how many Christians are on the forum, but I'd like an answer from one of you.

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Christians,

 

Where is there room for personal responsibility within Christianity?

 

1. You are told you sin because it is in your nature, and even after attaining salvation, you will sin. Why are you expected to take responsibility for something you cannot control?

 

2. Mercy and grace are provided in the event of sin, so where is your responsibility to avoid sin?

 

3. If you rely on God for everything, where is your sense that you control yourself? Is it not true that most Christians will pray "Lord, help me out here" instead of "Lord, I got myself into this mess, so I'll get myself out?"

 

4. Why is it Christians will repent often only after their sin is exposed? How can such repentance be legitimate? A child who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar will say "sorry" because that is what he is taught to do, not what he actually feels.

 

Hi Penguin.  I know you wanted Christian responses.  However it's been my experience that most Christians who dare to come to these forums are either mentally unstable and/or lacking in the intelligence required to engage in any kind of interesting debate.  Hopefully 2PhiloVoid will live up to his user name and provide us with stimulus.  Until then, please allow me to play devil's advocate here:

 

1. Responsibility isn't the only reason one might be punished.  For example a rabid dog is put down not because it is responsible for its condition, but because its nature is such that it will only attack the closest living flesh it can find.  Therefore it is fit only to be put down.  Calvinist Christians in particular would approve of the analogy between the sinner and the rabid dog, and would certainly concur that we as sinners are fit only to burn, unless our very nature is changed via the blood of Christ.

 

2. The evangelical would accuse you of conflating responsibility with consequence.  The regenerate man, they would say, doesn't say he avoids sin because he is compelled by responsibility, but rather because his new nature in Christ dictates it.  He craves righteousness as an alcoholic does liquor, and drinks deeply of the fountain of God's grace.

 

3. Again, my Calvinist background is showing here, but a Reformed evangelical would say, "yes, precisely!"  He would argue that you have no control.  As the scripture says, you are a slave either to sin or to righteousness, but man is not born to be truly free.  The Christian is overjoyed to not be in control, because left to his own devices his self-determination would lead him to hell.

 

4. Actually, when I was a Christian my friends would sometimes confess sin to me when under no duress, save for the pressure with which their soul weighed upon them.  Yes, the case of the Christian who is sorry for getting caught rather than for doing the deed is all to common, but of the many wrongs with which I charge Christians, insincerity isn't among them.  Even among those who repent after their sin is brought to light, the Christian might say that God uses social guilt as a means to bring about true repentance, to destroy the body so that the soul may be saved.

 

I hope I don't come across as being sympathetic to Christians.  I do think there are a good many logical inconsistencies in the Christian paradigm. But it is a more convincing worldview than many on ex-C give it credit for.  After all, there are many smart people on this forum, and every last one believed in Christianity at some point.

 

I do believe that Christianity eschews personal responsibility for sin, but I would take a different approach here.  Christianity minimizes sins (note the lowercase 's') by making Sin equally responsible for all wrongdoing.  Whether I steal a paperclip from work or rape a schoolboy in the locker room, it is my sin nature which caused the deed.  And it is due to that same sin nature that I will go to the same hell of fire as those who did greater or lesser evils than I.  According to Jesus Christ, my deceased aunt is in the same eternal hell as every twentieth century dictator who ever perpetrated a genocide, because she committed the sin of living the life of a devout Hindu, reciting mantras to Vishnu until the very day that cancer robbed her of consciousness.  For this sin she is worthy of eternal torment in the fiery hell, for though all possess a sin nature, the fact remains that not converting to Christianity is the proximate cause of condemnation.

 

In my estimation Christianity is largely self-consistent.  But like the apostle Paul I would appeal to nature herself, and to the human conscience which we all possess.  Most everyone knows that it is wrong to take what belongs to another man, whether he takes his life by murder, his liberty by enslavement, or his property by theft.  Those who do not know this are rightly labeled psychopaths.  It is for this reason that when our nation's founders asserted the existence of inalienable rights such as life, liberty, and property, they appealed not to Jesus Christ, but to Nature and Nature's God.  Every Sunday millions of Americans raise their hands in worship at evangelical churches.  How many of them would willfully cast you into an eternal hell, knowing full well that you would have no hope of escape even after the end of time?  I doubt you could find even a handful who would do the deed.  And yet they believe in Jesus Christ, who happily does so.  So then, their conscience is at odds with Jesus.  I would submit that most evangelicals do not follow the teachings of Jesus through to their conclusion, and are unable to accept the consequences of true belief in Jesus.

 

That Jesus teaches the existence of an eternal hell is reason enough to deny that he is God.  It is easier and more legitimate to believe that the God who gives us our conscience is the true God than it is to believe that Jesus Christ is worthy of even token respect, for Jesus is the master and originator of the greatest evils.

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Guest Furball

if i was still a christian i would do as jesus commanded me, he said to be reconciled with my brother while on my way to court with him lest i be thrown into the prison to pay the last penny i owed, i realise this is a spiritual saying with a spiritual meaning, but still.

 

i would also forgive 7x's77 as jesus told me to do, lest i be tossed into god's eternal human baking oven

 

but i am not a christian anymore so....

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Christians,

 

Where is there room for personal responsibility within Christianity?

 

1. You are told you sin because it is in your nature, and even after attaining salvation, you will sin. Why are you expected to take responsibility for something you cannot control?

 

2. Mercy and grace are provided in the event of sin, so where is your responsibility to avoid sin?

 

3. If you rely on God for everything, where is your sense that you control yourself? Is it not true that most Christians will pray "Lord, help me out here" instead of "Lord, I got myself into this mess, so I'll get myself out?"

 

4. Why is it Christians will repent often only after their sin is exposed? How can such repentance be legitimate? A child who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar will say "sorry" because that is what he is taught to do, not what he actually feels.

 

You're going to have to be a bit more specific please....for example, defining sin. Off the cuff, it seems like an effort to faithfully promote life/morality is a large act of self responsibility...

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Christians,

 

Where is there room for personal responsibility within Christianity?

 

1. You are told you sin because it is in your nature, and even after attaining salvation, you will sin. Why are you expected to take responsibility for something you cannot control?

 

2. Mercy and grace are provided in the event of sin, so where is your responsibility to avoid sin?

 

3. If you rely on God for everything, where is your sense that you control yourself? Is it not true that most Christians will pray "Lord, help me out here" instead of "Lord, I got myself into this mess, so I'll get myself out?"

 

4. Why is it Christians will repent often only after their sin is exposed? How can such repentance be legitimate? A child who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar will say "sorry" because that is what he is taught to do, not what he actually feels.

 

You're going to have to be a bit more specific please....for example, defining sin. Off the cuff, it seems like an effort to faithfully promote life/morality is a large act of self responsibility...

 

 

 

I'm sure we are talking about sin as defined by the Bible.  You know things like passing by a wickka shop and not murdering every pagan in the place.  That sort of thing.  Not forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist.  Failing to sprinkle lamb blood all over your front door on Passover.  Wearing clothes that are made of blended fabrics.  Not murdering all the people who work on Saturday.  Not murdering your daughter if she has sex before she is married.  You know, sin.

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Hold up. Did a Christian just ask me to define "sin?"

 

tumblr_mfmj9mjAFo1qbskx5o4_500.gif

 

 

Off the cuff, it seems like an effort to faithfully promote life/morality is a large act of self responsibility...

 

How is promoting life/morality being personally responsible? Telling others about life and your own personal morality are not responsible actions. Personal responsibility would be ensuring your own life and morality are consistent (something Christians seem content to shrug off in the name of grace and mercy because they're "not perfect, just forgiven," as the T-shirt goes).

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Hold up. Did a Christian just ask me to define "sin?"

 

tumblr_mfmj9mjAFo1qbskx5o4_500.gif

 

 

Off the cuff, it seems like an effort to faithfully promote life/morality is a large act of self responsibility...

 

How is promoting life/morality being personally responsible? Telling others about life and your own personal morality are not responsible actions. Personal responsibility would be ensuring your own life and morality are consistent (something Christians seem content to shrug off in the name of grace and mercy because they're "not perfect, just forgiven," as the T-shirt goes).

 

 

 

How is promoting life/morality being personally responsible?

Eh, personally adhering to standards and actions that promote life and morality?

 

 

See the bold portion of my quoted post.

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How is promoting life/morality being personally responsible?

Eh, personally adhering to standards and actions that promote life and morality?

 

 

 

Come on End.  You know the Biblical view of sin does not promote life or morality.  It promotes blindly obeying God or else death.  In the New Testament the death is a spiritual (imaginary) thing that happens in the next life.  In the Old Testament the death was literal and carried out with stones.  "Do as we say or else we will kill you" is not promoting life.

 

Real morality requires empathy to decide what is best for the greater good.  Often that answer conflicts with the Bible.

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Perhaps End would like to tell us the about the origin of sin, keeping in mind Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3...?

 

Since that passage tells him to accept by faith that the Fall happened as described in Genesis, why does he then consider this event to be an indisputable historical fact... ?

 

 

 

 

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Hold up. Did a Christian just ask me to define "sin?"

 

tumblr_mfmj9mjAFo1qbskx5o4_500.gif

 

 

 

Off the cuff, it seems like an effort to faithfully promote life/morality is a large act of self responsibility...

 

How is promoting life/morality being personally responsible? Telling others about life and your own personal morality are not responsible actions. Personal responsibility would be ensuring your own life and morality are consistent (something Christians seem content to shrug off in the name of grace and mercy because they're "not perfect, just forgiven," as the T-shirt goes).

 

 

 

 

How is promoting life/morality being personally responsible?

Eh, personally adhering to standards and actions that promote life and morality?

 

 

See the bold portion of my quoted post.

 

I did. I think most folks are working towards that end.....i.e. "what must I do to be 'finished'". Don't know anyone that is a completed work, you?

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End3, you're avoiding answering my questions.

 

1. You are told you sin because it is in your nature, and even after attaining salvation, you will sin. Why are you expected to take responsibility for something you cannot control?

 

2. Mercy and grace are provided in the event of sin, so where is your responsibility to avoid sin?

 

3. If you rely on God for everything, where is your sense that you control yourself? Is it not true that most Christians will pray "Lord, help me out here" instead of "Lord, I got myself into this mess, so I'll get myself out?"

 

4. Why is it Christians will repent often only after their sin is exposed? How can such repentance be legitimate? A child who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar will say "sorry" because that is what he is taught to do, not what he actually feels.

 

And TheRedneckProfessor's question:

 

5.  When you do wrong to another individual, jesus offers you immediate forgiveness.  This provides you with a clear conscience without being compelled to go back to the person wronged and seek to make amends.  How does this lack of accountability square with the greatest commandment, to love your neighbor as yourself and even love your own enemies?

 

And bornagainatheist's questions:

 

Perhaps End would like to tell us the about the origin of sin, keeping in mind Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3...?

 

Since that passage tells him to accept by faith that the Fall happened as described in Genesis, why does he then consider this event to be an indisputable historical fact... ?

***

 

As a Christian, End3, you're well aware of what sin is. Quit stalling and answer the questions.

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End3, you're avoiding answering my questions.

 

 

1. You are told you sin because it is in your nature, and even after attaining salvation, you will sin. Why are you expected to take responsibility for something you cannot control?

 

2. Mercy and grace are provided in the event of sin, so where is your responsibility to avoid sin?

 

3. If you rely on God for everything, where is your sense that you control yourself? Is it not true that most Christians will pray "Lord, help me out here" instead of "Lord, I got myself into this mess, so I'll get myself out?"

 

4. Why is it Christians will repent often only after their sin is exposed? How can such repentance be legitimate? A child who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar will say "sorry" because that is what he is taught to do, not what he actually feels.

 

 

And TheRedneckProfessor's question:

 

5.  When you do wrong to another individual, jesus offers you immediate forgiveness.  This provides you with a clear conscience without being compelled to go back to the person wronged and seek to make amends.  How does this lack of accountability square with the greatest commandment, to love your neighbor as yourself and even love your own enemies?

 

And bornagainatheist's questions:

 

Perhaps End would like to tell us the about the origin of sin, keeping in mind Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3...?

 

Since that passage tells him to accept by faith that the Fall happened as described in Genesis, why does he then consider this event to be an indisputable historical fact... ?

***

 

As a Christian, End3, you're well aware of what sin is. Quit stalling and answer the questions.

I did answer. I am taking personal responsibility for my "sins" by practicing Christianity. Obviously you disagree with that approach.

 

And sin is somewhat relative because, as I said, we are not finished works nor omniscient. All we have is faith that we are acting to some absolute morality.

 

I understand that there are people that are less responsible with the title as Christian. I get that. With that said, let's examine your standard.

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End3, you're avoiding answering my questions.

 

 

1. You are told you sin because it is in your nature, and even after attaining salvation, you will sin. Why are you expected to take responsibility for something you cannot control?

 

2. Mercy and grace are provided in the event of sin, so where is your responsibility to avoid sin?

 

3. If you rely on God for everything, where is your sense that you control yourself? Is it not true that most Christians will pray "Lord, help me out here" instead of "Lord, I got myself into this mess, so I'll get myself out?"

 

4. Why is it Christians will repent often only after their sin is exposed? How can such repentance be legitimate? A child who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar will say "sorry" because that is what he is taught to do, not what he actually feels.

 

 

And TheRedneckProfessor's question:

 

5.  When you do wrong to another individual, jesus offers you immediate forgiveness.  This provides you with a clear conscience without being compelled to go back to the person wronged and seek to make amends.  How does this lack of accountability square with the greatest commandment, to love your neighbor as yourself and even love your own enemies?

 

And bornagainatheist's questions:

 

Perhaps End would like to tell us the about the origin of sin, keeping in mind Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3...?

 

Since that passage tells him to accept by faith that the Fall happened as described in Genesis, why does he then consider this event to be an indisputable historical fact... ?

***

 

As a Christian, End3, you're well aware of what sin is. Quit stalling and answer the questions.

I did answer. I am taking personal responsibility for my "sins" by practicing Christianity. Obviously you disagree with that approach.

 

And sin is somewhat relative because, as I said, we are not finished works nor omniscient. All we have is faith that we are acting to some absolute morality.

 

I understand that there are people that are less responsible with the title as Christian. I get that. With that said, let's examine your standard.

 

 

No, you did not answer any of the questions presented. Obviously, you aren't going to.

 

200_s.gif

 

I would explore this topic further, but since you aren't going to answer my questions, I'll wait for someone who will.

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End3, you're avoiding answering my questions.

 

 

1. You are told you sin because it is in your nature, and even after attaining salvation, you will sin. Why are you expected to take responsibility for something you cannot control?

 

2. Mercy and grace are provided in the event of sin, so where is your responsibility to avoid sin?

 

3. If you rely on God for everything, where is your sense that you control yourself? Is it not true that most Christians will pray "Lord, help me out here" instead of "Lord, I got myself into this mess, so I'll get myself out?"

 

4. Why is it Christians will repent often only after their sin is exposed? How can such repentance be legitimate? A child who is caught with his hand in the cookie jar will say "sorry" because that is what he is taught to do, not what he actually feels.

 

 

And TheRedneckProfessor's question:

 

5.  When you do wrong to another individual, jesus offers you immediate forgiveness.  This provides you with a clear conscience without being compelled to go back to the person wronged and seek to make amends.  How does this lack of accountability square with the greatest commandment, to love your neighbor as yourself and even love your own enemies?

 

And bornagainatheist's questions:

 

Perhaps End would like to tell us the about the origin of sin, keeping in mind Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3...?

 

Since that passage tells him to accept by faith that the Fall happened as described in Genesis, why does he then consider this event to be an indisputable historical fact... ?

***

 

As a Christian, End3, you're well aware of what sin is. Quit stalling and answer the questions.

I did answer. I am taking personal responsibility for my "sins" by practicing Christianity. Obviously you disagree with that approach.

 

And sin is somewhat relative because, as I said, we are not finished works nor omniscient. All we have is faith that we are acting to some absolute morality.

 

I understand that there are people that are less responsible with the title as Christian. I get that. With that said, let's examine your standard.

 

 

No, you did not answer any of the questions presented. Obviously, you aren't going to.

 

200_s.gif

 

I would explore this topic further, but since you aren't going to answer my questions, I'll wait for someone who will.

 

Fair enough. Sorry you can't infer from my statements. If you would like to pick apart your statements, let me know. We can start with #1 if you would like.

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I did answer. I am taking personal responsibility for my "sins" by practicing Christianity. Obviously you disagree with that approach.

 

And sin is somewhat relative because, as I said, we are not finished works nor omniscient. All we have is faith that we are acting to some absolute morality.

 

I understand that there are people that are less responsible with the title as Christian. I get that. With that said, let's examine your standard.

 

 

Please see the bolded part. Why did you write "sin is somewhat relative ... All we have is faith that we are acting to some absolute morality"? Let skip the discrepancy between faith and absolute morality that you believe in. Why is it things that are condemned as sins by absolute morality become relative? Doesn't make sense.

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Fair enough. Sorry you can't infer from my statements. If you would like to pick apart your statements, let me know. We can start with #1 if you would like.

 

 

Would you like us to infer stuff from your statements that you don't actually mean, End?

 

Or would you prefer to avoid that level of confusion, dispense with inference and just answer the questions as simply and plainly as possible?

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Oh hell, let's look at number one.

 

First, you need to define sin in an absolute. Perhaps we all might be better people if you could provide the absolute list before condemnation.

 

Second, per the definition of salvation, I'm thinking deliverance from sin is that "twinkling" when we will be changed. AS I said, I don't know that any of us are "finished".....perhaps we disagree on that point.

 

So yes, the reason we have FAITH in Christ is because he says, "forgive them Father, they don't know", they don't absolutely know You.

 

Not sure I get your question about "why we are expected". I think most folks want to do the moral thing and are looking TO take responsibility for their actions.

 

Let me get two while I'm here. Hell is a good deterrent.....fear of God.

 

Heck, I'm on a roll,

 

3) The subscription is to Christianity. The point would be TO rely on the subscription for learning/advice. In my life, I don't know that I have found a better standard by which to live.

 

4) and the Professor's #5 are just stages of our own maturity....pride, etc.

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Perhaps End would like to tell us the about the origin of sin, keeping in mind Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3...?

 

Since that passage tells him to accept by faith that the Fall happened as described in Genesis, why does he then consider this event to be an indisputable historical fact... ?

 

(Bump!)

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I did answer. I am taking personal responsibility for my "sins" by practicing Christianity. Obviously you disagree with that approach.

 

And sin is somewhat relative because, as I said, we are not finished works nor omniscient. All we have is faith that we are acting to some absolute morality.

 

I understand that there are people that are less responsible with the title as Christian. I get that. With that said, let's examine your standard.

 

Please see the bolded part. Why did you write "sin is somewhat relative ... All we have is faith that we are acting to some absolute morality"? Let skip the discrepancy between faith and absolute morality that you believe in. Why is it things that are condemned as sins by absolute morality become relative? Doesn't make sense.

 

I'm sorry SL, I'm not understanding your statement. Do you please mind restating?....or could you give me an example?

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I did answer. I am taking personal responsibility for my "sins" by practicing Christianity. Obviously you disagree with that approach.

 

And sin is somewhat relative because, as I said, we are not finished works nor omniscient. All we have is faith that we are acting to some absolute morality.

 

I understand that there are people that are less responsible with the title as Christian. I get that. With that said, let's examine your standard.

 

Please see the bolded part. Why did you write "sin is somewhat relative ... All we have is faith that we are acting to some absolute morality"? Let skip the discrepancy between faith and absolute morality that you believe in. Why is it things that are condemned as sins by absolute morality become relative? Doesn't make sense.

 

I'm sorry SL, I'm not understanding your statement. Do you please mind restating?....or could you give me an example?

 

 

You believe in an absolute morality source, as in Bible God. For this to be true, then all things stated as sins by the God must be absolute too. However, you also said "sin is somewhat relative because ... we are not finished works nor omniscient". How can you say sin is somewhat relative but the morality source who defined what sins are is absolute? This is a discrepancy.

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You believe in an absolute morality source, as in Bible God. For this to be true, then all things stated as sins by the God must be absolute too. However, you also said "sin is somewhat relative because ... we are not finished works nor omniscient". How can you say sin is somewhat relative but the morality source who defined what sins are is absolute? This is a discrepancy.

Thanks, given what I have read regarding the Bible defining sin, I can't gather that it addresses each specific of my day...maybe it does given enough time to study. Regardless, in doing no harm, supporting life, I have only the ability to estimate if my decisions will have the "life supporting" aspect that I would desire for others. Ultimately, I don't know many many consequences of those decisions I make. In that, I can faithfully guess what these decisions would be, but ultimately don't know that I know enough to come anywhere close to some absolute.

 

In my mind an absolute morality would be one in which there was "eternal life" in the end for all.

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