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Goodbye Jesus

Christianity And Personal Responsibility


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You believe in an absolute morality source, as in Bible God. For this to be true, then all things stated as sins by the God must be absolute too. However, you also said "sin is somewhat relative because ... we are not finished works nor omniscient". How can you say sin is somewhat relative but the morality source who defined what sins are is absolute? This is a discrepancy.

Thanks, given what I have read regarding the Bible defining sin, I can't gather that it addresses each specific of my day...maybe it does given enough time to study. Regardless, in doing no harm, supporting life, I have only the ability to estimate if my decisions will have the "life supporting" aspect that I would desire for others. Ultimately, I don't know many many consequences of those decisions I make. In that, I can faithfully guess what these decisions would be, but ultimately don't know that I know enough to come anywhere close to some absolute.

 

In my mind an absolute morality would be one in which there was "eternal life" in the end for all.

 

 

Thus, absolute morality does not exist.

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Perhaps End would like to tell us the about the origin of sin, keeping in mind Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3...?

 

Since that passage tells him to accept by faith that the Fall happened as described in Genesis, why does he then consider this event to be an indisputable historical fact... ?

 

(Bump!)

 

 

That's a most important point.  The Bible defines faith as a hope in things not yet seen.  Presumably this works retroactively in the case of creation; one day those who believed in Jesus will see that their belief in the historicity of the Mosaic creation account was justified.  Why, then, do evangelicals attempt to provide any sort of scientific justification for this account?  If End3 is going to come here suggesting that the New Testament is anything but a grossly immoral collection of evil, he should be required to give some account for the sins of evangelical Christianity, including the requirement to explain his belief that the creation account is incontrovertible.

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You believe in an absolute morality source, as in Bible God. For this to be true, then all things stated as sins by the God must be absolute too. However, you also said "sin is somewhat relative because ... we are not finished works nor omniscient". How can you say sin is somewhat relative but the morality source who defined what sins are is absolute? This is a discrepancy.

Thanks, given what I have read regarding the Bible defining sin, I can't gather that it addresses each specific of my day...maybe it does given enough time to study. Regardless, in doing no harm, supporting life, I have only the ability to estimate if my decisions will have the "life supporting" aspect that I would desire for others. Ultimately, I don't know many many consequences of those decisions I make. In that, I can faithfully guess what these decisions would be, but ultimately don't know that I know enough to come anywhere close to some absolute.

 

In my mind an absolute morality would be one in which there was "eternal life" in the end for all.

 

The Bible does address specific sins. Ten commandments in the Old Testament for example. Sermon on the mount in the New Testament. Those address specific sins that people still encounter day to day. Now, are sins relative? Are those ten commandments or Sermon on the mount relative for Christians? 

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The Bible does address specific sins. Ten commandments in the Old Testament for example. Sermon on the mount in the New Testament. Those address specific sins that people still encounter day to day. Now, are sins relative? Are those ten commandments or Sermon on the mount relative for Christians?

I believe there are actions that are not listed that are sis. For those listed, yes, non-relative.

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The Bible does address specific sins. Ten commandments in the Old Testament for example. Sermon on the mount in the New Testament. Those address specific sins that people still encounter day to day. Now, are sins relative? Are those ten commandments or Sermon on the mount relative for Christians?

I believe there are actions that are not listed that are sis. For those listed, yes, non-relative.

 

Okay, you believe those listed above are absolute sins. Period. Correct?

Now, from Matthew 5:

"21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’[d] is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

 

Do you believe Bible God condemn people who swears to Hell? You see, this means I will go to Hell because after I stopped believing in Bible God I swore and I didn't ask for forgiveness. Regardless of the charities that I did for St Vincent de Paul. 

 

How about this?

"32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

For you to be consistent, this has to be absolute. Do you think so?

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I believe that outside of Christ one would have to adhere to the rules, the law, the absolute or atone in some manner for any transgression as judged by God. Although we have the gospel, I don't believe that gives us license to transgress....although we surely do each day.

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I believe that outside of Christ one would have to adhere to the rules, the law, the absolute or atone in some manner for any transgression as judged by God. Although we have the gospel, I don't believe that gives us license to transgress....although we surely do each day.

This is not an answer to a yes / no question. In the beginning you said sins are not absolute because they are not specified in the Bible. I gave you ten commandments and sermon on the mount and you said those are absolute. Then I gave you specific from the sermon on the mount about divorce and swearing and you gave a very vague reply. Your reply is not an answer. Again, are divorce and swearing sins that cause people to go to Hell?

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I believe that outside of Christ one would have to adhere to the rules, the law, the absolute or atone in some manner for any transgression as judged by God. Although we have the gospel, I don't believe that gives us license to transgress....although we surely do each day.

 

 

What a horrible thing to put yourself though!  You probably don't even realize the suffering your belief causes you.

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I believe that outside of Christ one would have to adhere to the rules, the law, the absolute or atone in some manner for any transgression as judged by God. Although we have the gospel, I don't believe that gives us license to transgress....although we surely do each day.

This is not an answer to a yes / no question. In the beginning you said sins are not absolute because they are not specified in the Bible. I gave you ten commandments and sermon on the mount and you said those are absolute. Then I gave you specific from the sermon on the mount about divorce and swearing and you gave a very vague reply. Your reply is not an answer. Again, are divorce and swearing sins that cause people to go to Hell?

 

If I am remembering correctly, we may choose to live by the OT Law and be judged, or we may choose faith in Christ. If we do not have grace or mercy for not acting in an absolute manner, then the result is a different outcome. So I expect the opposite of eternal life is eternal death. So that's a yes to your question.

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I believe that outside of Christ one would have to adhere to the rules, the law, the absolute or atone in some manner for any transgression as judged by God. Although we have the gospel, I don't believe that gives us license to transgress....although we surely do each day.

 

 

What a horrible thing to put yourself though!  You probably don't even realize the suffering your belief causes you.

 

I agree it's a bit extreme, but it seems logical per the theology....

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Let me explain it this way....and it's only my opinion of course, but as I live my life, I would need to make each decision such that it leads to "life" for all things....which means essentially one door(absolute) out of the maze. If I end up coming out of any other door to the maze, then the result is not the same. So if I am to come out at door three rather than door one, then there are consequences for exiting by door three. The choices we have are believe that Christ exited by door one and be saved that WE didn't exit by door one or we may say no to Christ and be judged by which door we exit.

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Let me explain it this way....and it's only my opinion of course, but as I live my life, I would need to make each decision such that it leads to "life" for all things....which means essentially one door(absolute) out of the maze. If I end up coming out of any other door to the maze, then the result is not the same. So if I am to come out at door three rather than door one, then there are consequences for exiting by door three. The choices we have are believe that Christ exited by door one and be saved that WE didn't exit by door one or we may say no to Christ and be judged by which door we exit.

 

 

For atheists is is a lot easier to be moral.  We don't have to worry about God so that takes out the middle man.  All we have to do is empathize with other humans and decide how much of a duty we have to others vs. how much of a duty we have to ourselves.  It's much simpler and much more effective.

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Don't know many instances where the easier way is the right way.

 

 

Sure you do.  You can imagine thousands of them.  Doing things the wrong way and tossing in unnecessary complications always results in more work.

 

Try assembling a cabinet.  Which is easier . . . following the directions, measuring twice and cutting once . . . or throwing away the directions, starting the project randomly, cutting the parts wrong, buying new parts to replaces the ones you ruined, cutting the new parts wrong, buying another set of new parts, getting mad and bashing the whole thing with a sledge hammer, starting over with a brand new kit . . . ?

 

What is the right way to cut a lawn?  Trim the edges then mow in parallel lines all the way across until you are done?  Or would you rather run the lawnmower in random directions so that hours later some parts of the lawn have still not been cut?

 

I'm talking about the actual work involved.  As a Christian you have to memorize so much of the Bible and then you have to interpret all those verses the "right" way and that doesn't get you any closer to real morality.  But it does distract a lot of people who never get to the morality part.  They are so focused on obeying their interpretation of the Bible they don't bother to empathize with others and don't notice when they are acting badly.

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I believe that outside of Christ one would have to adhere to the rules, the law, the absolute or atone in some manner for any transgression as judged by God. Although we have the gospel, I don't believe that gives us license to transgress....although we surely do each day.

This is not an answer to a yes / no question. In the beginning you said sins are not absolute because they are not specified in the Bible. I gave you ten commandments and sermon on the mount and you said those are absolute. Then I gave you specific from the sermon on the mount about divorce and swearing and you gave a very vague reply. Your reply is not an answer. Again, are divorce and swearing sins that cause people to go to Hell?

 

If I am remembering correctly, we may choose to live by the OT Law and be judged, or we may choose faith in Christ. If we do not have grace or mercy for not acting in an absolute manner, then the result is a different outcome. So I expect the opposite of eternal life is eternal death. So that's a yes to your question.

 

 

So, per your answer above, you believe all remarried divorcee are committed to sin therefore if they don't repent before they die then eternal death is waiting for them.

Now, my next question is: Are you trying to "save" other people too? Or are you keeping your faith to yourself?

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Now, my next question is: Are you trying to "save" other people too?

 

Ironhorse isn't, i asked him to witness his version of the gospel to me and never heard back from him. On judgement day i am going to point the finger at him and blame him for not "getting me saved." 

 

We'll see what jesus does to him for such treachery.

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Perhaps End would like to tell us the about the origin of sin, keeping in mind Hebrews 11 : 1 - 3...?

 

Since that passage tells him to accept by faith that the Fall happened as described in Genesis, why does he then consider this event to be an indisputable historical fact... ?

 

(Bump!)

 

 

Re-bump!

 

Yet all of End's input in this thread depends on him treating Adam and Eve's original sin as being...

 

A.  Historical.

B.  The defining event of human history.

C.  The sole reason for corruption, disease and death.

D.  The reason God incarnated himself as Jesus, to put right the chain of events they set in motion.

 

So far he's justified none of these things.

He believes in them by faith, but cannot present a single shred of extra-biblical historical evidence for the most pivotal event in human history, nor any scientific evidence that sin even exists - except as an unverifiable belief in the minds of many people.

 

Let's see End stop dodging about the origin of sin and start justifying A thru D with more than just his faith!

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So, per your answer above, you believe all remarried divorcee are committed to sin therefore if they don't repent before they die then eternal death is waiting for them.

Now, my next question is: Are you trying to "save" other people too? Or are you keeping your faith to yourself?

That may be the theology, but I personally am not sure all unrepentant divorcees end in eternal death.

 

Of course if there is a heaven/eternal life, yes, I would like everyone to go....why not. I am less evangelical than I was years ago due to my own learning curve. I think there are a lot of zealot types upon conversion, I was.

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I believe that outside of Christ one would have to adhere to the rules, the law, the absolute or atone in some manner for any transgression as judged by God. Although we have the gospel, I don't believe that gives us license to transgress....although we surely do each day.

This is not an answer to a yes / no question. In the beginning you said sins are not absolute because they are not specified in the Bible. I gave you ten commandments and sermon on the mount and you said those are absolute. Then I gave you specific from the sermon on the mount about divorce and swearing and you gave a very vague reply. Your reply is not an answer. Again, are divorce and swearing sins that cause people to go to Hell?

 

If I am remembering correctly, we may choose to live by the OT Law and be judged, or we may choose faith in Christ. If we do not have grace or mercy for not acting in an absolute manner, then the result is a different outcome. So I expect the opposite of eternal life is eternal death. So that's a yes to your question.

 

 

Since End3 wrote the following in this forum...

 

"Idiots!  Stupid shit!  That's a fucked up life [of yours] BAA.  Your conclusion is moronic. Antagonistic bitch!  Your whining ass position. Fuck you, BDP." 

 

...perhaps he can explain to StillLooking how he thinks God will judge him for these insults?

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So, per your answer above, you believe all remarried divorcee are committed to sin therefore if they don't repent before they die then eternal death is waiting for them.

Now, my next question is: Are you trying to "save" other people too? Or are you keeping your faith to yourself?

That may be the theology, but I personally am not sure all unrepentant divorcees end in eternal death.

 

Of course if there is a heaven/eternal life, yes, I would like everyone to go....why not. I am less evangelical than I was years ago due to my own learning curve. I think there are a lot of zealot types upon conversion, I was.

 

 

Your first sentence doesn't support your take on the absolute rule of the sermon on the mount. I will let this aside because my goal in this thread is just to see how fundamentalist you are.

 

With your second sentence it seems that you are not trying to shove your Bible God doctrines down unbelievers throat. Is this correct?

What is your stance on legality of abortion? Are you trying to prevent abortion procedures for all? Or, are you one of those who will not do abortion but let other people choose for themselves?

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So, per your answer above, you believe all remarried divorcee are committed to sin therefore if they don't repent before they die then eternal death is waiting for them.

Now, my next question is: Are you trying to "save" other people too? Or are you keeping your faith to yourself?

That may be the theology, but I personally am not sure all unrepentant divorcees end in eternal death.

 

Of course if there is a heaven/eternal life, yes, I would like everyone to go....why not. I am less evangelical than I was years ago due to my own learning curve. I think there are a lot of zealot types upon conversion, I was.

 

 

Your first sentence doesn't support your take on the absolute rule of the sermon on the mount. I will let this aside because my goal in this thread is just to see how fundamentalist you are.

 

With your second sentence it seems that you are not trying to shove your Bible God doctrines down unbelievers throat. Is this correct?

What is your stance on legality of abortion? Are you trying to prevent abortion procedures for all? Or, are you one of those who will not do abortion but let other people choose for themselves?

 

I enjoy discussing mystic stuff, theology, etc. Shoving it down people's throats is the wrong approach imo.

 

I disagree with abortion but am not an activist.

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I enjoy discussing mystic stuff, theology, etc. Shoving it down people's throats is the wrong approach imo.

 

I disagree with abortion but am not an activist.

 

 

Are you going to sign a petition to put ban on abortion in your state if it is available in your state?

 

What is your stance on evolution (or theistic evolution as some believers call it)?

 

What is your take on the pediatrician who refused to care for an infant of a lesbian couple?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/macomb/2015/02/18/discrimination-birth/23640315/

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Are you going to sign a petition to put ban on abortion in your state if it is available in your state?

 

What is your stance on evolution (or theistic evolution as some believers call it)?

 

What is your take on the pediatrician who refused to care for an infant of a lesbian couple?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/macomb/2015/02/18/discrimination-birth/23640315/

No signing a ban. I think we all come to our understandings on our own time for our own good.

 

I'm not clear on evolution. I don't understand the difference between something evolving due to choice vs. circumstance. I am woefully ignorant when it comes to evolution.

 

To the pediatrician....see my latter part of my first comment (sorry, didn't read the article. I will if you would like me to)

My ex-wife's cousin, she and her female partner made a baby with her partner's brother's gonad goo. The little boy is very effeminate. He has no man in his life. I don't think that is right.

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Are you going to sign a petition to put ban on abortion in your state if it is available in your state?

 

What is your stance on evolution (or theistic evolution as some believers call it)?

 

What is your take on the pediatrician who refused to care for an infant of a lesbian couple?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/macomb/2015/02/18/discrimination-birth/23640315/

No signing a ban. I think we all come to our understandings on our own time for our own good.

 

I'm not clear on evolution. I don't understand the difference between something evolving due to choice vs. circumstance. I am woefully ignorant when it comes to evolution.

 

To the pediatrician....see my latter part of my first comment (sorry, didn't read the article. I will if you would like me to)

My ex-wife's cousin, she and her female partner made a baby with her partner's brother's gonad goo. The little boy is very effeminate. He has no man in his life. I don't think that is right.

 

 

Okay, I am not going to pursue this further. I think you are quite reasonable because it seems that you keep your belief as private matter. I am not going to debate you about your ex-wife's cousin, it is a whole different discussion.

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The comment about the ex-wife's cousin shows that a person can shift from being a fundie into something else, while retaining the same bigoted views on social issues as fundies have and encourage.  It's not enough to just stop being a fundie, people need to become rational humanists.

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