Penguin Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Christians! (Is Ironhorse the only one here? 2Philovoid? Is he around? I like him. He's at least rational in his belief, and has principles, not just dogma.) I put this out on christianforums.com as well, but wanted to see what kind of answers I'd get here. The original post on CF: http://www.christianforums.com/t7866386/ What I could never come to terms with in my time as a Christian is how God could be loving if He is willing to send His creation to Hell. Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Ephesians 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. The way I understand these verses, God predestined our salvation. I'm familiar with the whole Calvinism v. Arminianism debate, but these verses explain that God looked out into the future, saw who would accept him, and set that in stone. Why would he create something knowing it would go to Hell? Not just that it would go to Hell, but that he would allow it to go when he could easily stop it? This is called "love" in the Bible, but it is no definition of love as I understand it. What parent who--being able to stop their child from jumping in front of a train--would allow their child to jump? Furthermore, why is it that God is omnipotent and can speak worlds into existence, but he can't get over being rejected by something he created? Why would he set Adam and Eve up for failure in the garden by putting the tree in the garden? Would you lace chocolate chip cookies with cocaine, leave them in a room with your 3-year old, and tell him not to eat them? Why is it that because Adam and Eve sinned, the rest of humanity has to suffer? If my Dad got fired from his job, his boss didn't come and fire me, too. Why does God get away with acting in ways that humans would call petty if they saw such behavior in one another? These are my hangups with God, and why I find him so very difficult to accept. Even if you proved beyond a shadow of a doubt he exists, I would have a hard time following him unless there were some very good answers to the questions I've asked. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penguin Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Jesus Christ, the circular logic at Christian Forums is astounding. Not to mention some of those folks should take up a career in professional dodgeball, since they seem so adept at avoiding questions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yunea Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I read it. The saddest thing is that in some of the xtians responses I recognise that I once lied to myself the same way. The 'sin causes god pain' one was just weird though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Jesus Christ, the circular logic at Christian Forums is astounding. Not to mention some of those folks should take up a career in professional dodgeball, since they seem so adept at avoiding questions. 1. yes their circular logic is that the bible is true because the bible says it's true therefor it is true 2. they avoid questions to avoid having the fairy tale come to an end, they cannot not believe in something, they have to have some to believe in, and christianity like a lot of crap on this planet helps facilitate that need to believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Just because God knew beforehand who would accept his invitation to enter his Kingdom does not mean he had anything to do with their choice or he set it in stone. I'm not an expert on foreknowledge or time travel but those are my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Just because God knew beforehand who would accept his invitation to enter his Kingdom does not mean he had anything to do with their choice or he set it in stone. I'm not an expert on foreknowledge or time travel but those are my thoughts. Of course you are wrong. If God knew beforehand who would reject the invitation then God could have chosen to not create that person. Then God couldn't have tortured them for all eternity. If God has the power then God is responsible for evil. Your religion is stupid and petty. (edited for typos) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Just because God knew beforehand who would accept his invitation to enter his Kingdom does not mean he had anything to do with their choice or he set it in stone. I'm not an expert on foreknowledge or time travel but those are my thoughts. I used to think this way too, Ironhorse. God didn't make people choose, he merely knew what they would choose. It made sense too, until I started thinking about Pharaoh's hardened heart, and the Jacob and Esau thing as described in Romans 9: 10-13. Some vessels appointed to wrath and some vessels not appointed to wrath, and who are they to say "why have you made me thus", right? So in your religion Yahweh, son of El, does create a place of torture and then chooses the souls whom he will to appoint to go there, grace or no grace. Your Biblegod, who is my ex god, kind of reminds me of the soup Nazi in the Seinfeld show..."No grace for you for eternity!" it would be funny if the whole shebang didn't hurt so many people in real life. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 The whole of scriptures teach, I think, that each person chooses either God or self for eternity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 2 Sam 6 1 Cron 13 Uzzah did not want the Ark of the Covenant to spill and dump all it's contents on the ground. So Uzzah reached out and saved the Ark. As a reward God struck Uzzah dead. Because God is a petty bastard. Ah yes, God knew that one day Uzzah wouldn't want the Ark to fall so God invented a law on how to touch the ark just so God could strike Uzzah dead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 The scripture does not say the Ark was falling to the ground, it simply says the oxen stumbled. You assume to know all the gritty details. I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 The whole of scriptures teach, I think, that each person chooses either God or self for eternity. Then you are mistaken about Holy Writ. You first have to show that there is a "God", and that the scriptures teach this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Classic example. When a detail makes God look bad you assume you got the detail wrong. When a detail makes God look good you assume the detail is fact. Edit: Anyway it has been demonstrated that it is not a choice between God and self for all eternity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted March 6, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 6, 2015 The whole of scriptures teach, I think, that each person chooses either God or self for eternity. The scriptures are man made ironhorse. They are man-inspired. They are not 'inspired' by some invisible god. When people tried to tell me this, I bucked them whole-hardheartedly as a christian...the same as you will do...... (hug) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 The scripture does not say the Ark was falling to the ground, it simply says the oxen stumbled. You assume to know all the gritty details. I don't. Ironhorse, I note that you missed a thread where an invitation has been extended to you. Here is the link... http://www.ex-christ...y/#.VPlZi_msUuk Please join us to further your understanding of cosmology. Thanks. BAA. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Jesus Christ, the circular logic at Christian Forums is astounding. Not to mention some of those folks should take up a career in professional dodgeball, since they seem so adept at avoiding questions. 1. yes their circular logic is that the bible is true because the bible says it's true therefor it is true 2. they avoid questions to avoid having the fairy tale come to an end, they cannot not believe in something, they have to have some to believe in, and christianity like a lot of crap on this planet helps facilitate that need to believe I think you are onto something here, humans have a need to believe... but it doesn't have to be imaginary things (unless you let it), we can choose to believe in things based on adequate evidence. It's such a better way to live. The scripture does not say the Ark was falling to the ground, it simply says the oxen stumbled. You assume to know all the gritty details. I don't. Haha, this reminds me of an IHism from last year, what was it, #inbetweentheverses. IH claimed to know what was intended in between the verses. Sounds just like assuming to know all the gritty details. Projecting much? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubtingNate Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 The whole of scriptures teach, I think, that each person chooses either God or self for eternity. There is no such thing as "the whole of scriptures." They were written at different times, by different people with different understandings of God and salvation. You can't get a single, comprehensive interpretation of Scripture because it was never intended by the original anonymous authors to be interpreted this way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Just because God knew beforehand who would accept his invitation to enter his Kingdom does not mean he had anything to do with their choice or he set it in stone. That's exactly what it means. There is no getting around this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 6, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted March 6, 2015 Ironhorse, if god knew beforehand who would choose him and who would choose self, then what was his purpose in creating the choice to begin with? If he knew that those who did not choose him would spend eternity in hell, then what was his purpose in creating hell? I know you will dodge these questions, since you always do when I ask you something. So, for the lurkers, I will provide the real answer (you can squirm and ignore all day). god created the choice, knowing he had also created hell, because god is a maniacal, despotic, and sadistic tyrant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 TheRedneckProfessor, What was his purpose in creating the choice to begin with? It's called freedom. What was his purpose in creating hell? What do you want God to do with people who choose not to enter his Kingdom? Force them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 TheRedneckProfessor, What was his purpose in creating the choice to begin with? It's called freedom. What was his purpose in creating hell? What do you want God to do with people who choose not to enter his Kingdom? Force them? Dude, if I point a gun at your head and tell you "Give me your money or I will kill you" that is not freedom. God gives us the choice to either give up our freedom and mindlessly obey God for life or not believe in God and he will torture us forever and ever. That isn't freedom. It's simply two opposite extremes when neither one of them is realistic. Furthermore God gives us no good reason to believe he exists. God is simply going to threaten us with punishment and demand belief. It's ridiculous. Why would God want so badly for people to believe he exists? If I want a relationship with somebody I call them on the phone. Not God though. God starts a relationship by pretending he does not exist. Then if somebody believes anyway God continues to pretend he doesn't exist. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 TheRedneckProfessor, What was his purpose in creating the choice to begin with? It's called freedom. What was his purpose in creating hell? What do you want God to do with people who choose not to enter his Kingdom? Force them? People don't "choose not to enter his kingdom". They simply are unable to believe in a ridiculous story about a being with no evidence of existence. Show me some evidence and then we'll talk about choices. How can god be loving and just at the same time? How does that work? And you're not allowed to answer with the words "mysterious" or "higher". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted March 9, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted March 9, 2015 Having assigned a punishment that far outweighs the "crime" is forcing them, Ironhorse. How is that freedom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Ironhorse, you claim to have the answers, so you tell us...what was God's purpose in creating Hell? Is your God so limited that the only alternative he can find for those who choose not to enter his kingdom is eternal suffering in a lake of fire? Really? That's all that the creator of the universe can come up with? Why did create Hell, Ironhorse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 duderonomy, The scriptures say that God created Hell for Satan and the fallen angels. ( I'm guess the story of that rebellion and war is a lot bigger than the Star War's stories.) The purpose was to designate a place outside of God's presence for those who choose not to enter God's Kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 The scriptures say . . . But the scriptures do not make sense because they were written by ignorant men. The purpose was to designate a place outside of God's presence for those who choose not to enter God's Kingdom. Which is bullshit for several reasons. If God is omnipresent then there is no place outside of God's presence. Nobody chooses to be tortured forever. God has offered no legitimate reason to think there is a God's Kingdom. Scriptures are not evidence. Faith isn't evidence either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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