Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Ravenstar, as always your comments are a breath of fresh air. Indeed, personal responsibility is what a lot of equality issues (e.g. race, sex, socioeconomic status) can be distilled down to. Injustices from the past are used as a means to deflect personal responsibility. Right, so personal responsibility can overcome political power structures, history, socioeconomic status, unsupportive families? Perhaps in the imagination of politicians in the US-- many of whom grew up in privileged households and are now members of their own class of nepotistic royalty. Perhaps in my father's day this applied, but not today. Hew grew up with a single (widowed) mother in a virtual ghetto with five siblings, joined the Air Force, and ended up in a corporate job. This was post WWII and the US was booming. He himself credits good luck a great deal in regards to his fortune. Oh, wait-- I digress. His relatives worked their @$$es off to help his mother raise her five young children, including his aunt who didn't marry until she was 40 because she was ALWAYS WORKING. And this was the 1940s-50s. His mother had to drop out of school in SEVENTH GRADE to raise her OWN SIBLINGS because it was her "duty" as the "oldest daughter" back in the 1910s. I guess getting a job was out of her radar, as she probably had difficulty with basic literacy. Today, however... I will use a non gendered example in my country. An 18 year old can't apply for a college loan without his or her parents' W-2 (tax information). If daddy or mommy refuses to give out such information since they dislike the choice of college or major, the 18 year old is out of luck. An 18 year old can't get an apartment without good credit-- and most 18 year olds can't get any credit. The average 18 year old can't get a wage that will create good credit in the first place. The average 18 year old doesn't have access to decent public transportation in our country, let alone cheap car insurance. Round and round we go. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Just threw that in because some women (and men) seem to think radical feminism is THE face of feminism. Nothing could be farther from the truth - they are just the most vocal. I grew up during the sexual revolution (early 70's) things have changed a lot since then.. the radicals of then are todays regular women, for the most part. But..we've come a long way. Now we have to let go of the other shit… being a traditional female had 'perks', and to be truly equal we need to give those up, or men have every right to criticize. Some of the posters seem to react to any post regarding feminism/women's rights in any form as "radical feminism". I've seen the same reactions over and over again in threads on this particular topic. I'm sure most of those aforementioned posters believed that I was the "radical feminist" you were referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Next time I reply to any thread involving this topic, I will remember to bring... Hi Jutta. I see that you were able to view my post but did not respond to it. If you would like, please ignore my earlier post and allow me to rephrase what I said in a more organized fashion. 1. My principle objective The issue about which I am passionate is not false rape accusations specifically, but false accusations in general. I would rather legalize all criminal activity than send one innocent person to prison for any crime. I realize that there will always be flaws in the system and that innocents will be imprisoned from time to time, but the criminal justice system should be designed with the ethic that false conviction is not acceptable. Certain changes I would suggest to the justice system include requiring physical evidence for conviction when applicable, paying public defenders at least three times as much as we pay prosecutors, requiring that prosecutors give opening and closing statements prior to defense attorneys, and prohibiting the "perp walk" or any other public humiliation of a defendant prior to his conviction. Fundamentally this issue is not specific to rape, so I would kindly ask that you not accuse me of being obsessed with sex as you did when you posted the image of KY gel. 2. Why I emphasize false accusations of rape Rape is a strange issue from a legal standpoint because the crime is not directly related to a physical act. It is related to the mental state of the two parties in question. If I punch someone, I am guilty of battery. If I have sex with someone though, I am only guilty of rape if the person I had sex with didn't consent to it. Unless you are a boxer, you cannot really consent to being punched, and physical evidence can lead to my conviction or acquittal. But what physical evidence can exonerate me from rape? A rape kit? In many rape cases, both parties stipulated that some kind of sex occurred. Rape is also a strange issue in that it carries a paradoxically greater emotional charge than even murder. The Zerlina Maxwell op-ed I cited, which you and many others have failed to respond to, is quintessential of feminists who wish to erode the precious rights of defendants, in the specific case of rape. No one is suggesting that a person shouldn't get a fair trial for murder. Or if someone is, then that person isn't loud enough to be noticed by the media very often. But defendants' rights have already been eroded via rape shield laws, and the trend seems to be that these rights will suffer more greatly. That's what scares me about feminism. If there were a social movement that were going after other defendants' rights, I would be equally afraid of it. You can ignore me, but you can't control what I do in the voting booth. And I will vote against all feminist candidates and encourage my family and friends to do so as well. Want to change that? Respond to this post! 3. A hypothetical to spur discussion To illustrate what's wrong with the justice system, imagine the following. Let's say you and I worked together, that you were my manager, and you took a course of action that hurt the team which I am a part of. Let's say we know each other personally and I stop by your house to complain very boisterously. What is to stop you from claiming, a couple weeks later, that I raped you during this encounter? If you do this, what legal recourse would I possibly have? Even if I were not convicted of a crime, during the legal proceedings I would surely be dismissed from my position, and would not have the financial means to defend myself adequately. More importantly, how could I possibly look for another job while facing a rape accusation? With a word you have the power to destroy me. A legal system which makes this possible is unacceptable, and must be changed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Social equality is a problem for most people, everywhere, it isn't just a feminist issue. Striving for equal opportunity for everyone is a good goal.. a worthy goal. Will it ever happen? I don't know. Should it? I don't know that either. Humans seem to thrive on adversity… to a point - but this delves into sociology and the worldwide economic system, not just gender equality. That's a big slice of the pie… and I don't believe feminism can handle that entire piece - it's too wide. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhim Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Right, so personal responsibility can overcome political power structures, history, socioeconomic status, unsupportive families? Perhaps in the imagination of politicians in the US-- many of whom grew up in privileged households and are now members of their own class of nepotistic royalty. Perhaps in my father's day this applied, but not today. Hew grew up with a single (widowed) mother in a virtual ghetto with five siblings, joined the Air Force, and ended up in a corporate job. This was post WWII and the US was booming. He himself credits good luck a great deal in regards to his fortune. Oh, wait-- I digress. His relatives worked their @$$es off to help his mother raise her five young children, including his aunt who didn't marry until she was 40 because she was ALWAYS WORKING. And this was the 1940s-50s. His mother had to drop out of school in SEVENTH GRADE to raise her OWN SIBLINGS because it was her "duty" as the "oldest daughter" back in the 1910s. I guess getting a job was out of her radar, as she probably had difficulty with basic literacy. Today, however... I will use a non gendered example in my country. An 18 year old can't apply for a college loan without his or her parents' W-2 (tax information). If daddy or mommy refuses to give out such information since they dislike the choice of college or major, the 18 year old is out of luck. An 18 year old can't get an apartment without good credit-- and most 18 year olds can't get any credit. The average 18 year old can't get a wage that will create good credit in the first place. The average 18 year old doesn't have access to decent public transportation in our country, let alone cheap car insurance. Round and round we go. I might agree with some of the issues you raise, but this is a digression. And the fault is mine for even addressing topics unrelated to feminism. For that I apologize. Could you please comment on the issue of false rape accusations? Let's even stipulate that such accusations are rare. Please tell me whether you think it's OK to live in a world where it is reasonably possible for a female to make a successful false rape accusation against a male, and if not also tell me what you think should be done. Please feel free to disagree with my premise. Please do not respond with only a single line of text (I say this not because you have done so, but because I've encountered other posters who have this particular bad habit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Social equality is a problem for most people, everywhere, it isn't just a feminist issue. Striving for equal opportunity for everyone is a good goal.. a worthy goal. Will it ever happen? I don't know. Should it? I don't know that either. Humans seem to thrive on adversity… to a point - but this delves into sociology and the worldwide economic system, not just gender equality. That's a big slice of the pie… and I don't believe feminism can handle that entire piece - it's too wide. Ravenstar you are one of my favourite posters, you write beautifully 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Next time I reply to any thread involving this topic, I will remember to bring... Fundamentally this issue is not specific to rape, so I would kindly ask that you not accuse me of being obsessed with sex as you did when you posted the image of KY gel. Actually, that was in reply to the gang-up of posters that usually ensues whenever a female posts something regarding feminism/woman's rights that a few particular male posters don't agree with or find offensive. My concept of adult/adult rape is a violent one-- broken ribs, 3rd degree tearing, bruises-- things likely to be documented by a physical exam. I'm not a rape expert. I can't fathom starting a false-rape accusation, because my capacity to lie is pitiful and I couldn't put the time and energy into a false accusation such as that. My only solution to a false rape accusation is for the accused to get a good lawyer! Don't forget how many female teachers are being imprisoned for having sex with students in their teens-- as I'm sure many of them are technically guilty, it's not inconceivable for women to be falsely accused of rape. The concept of consent is tricky and I'm not a legal expert. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted March 1, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2015 Next time I reply to any thread involving this topic, I will remember to bring... Fundamentally this issue is not specific to rape, so I would kindly ask that you not accuse me of being obsessed with sex as you did when you posted the image of KY gel. Actually, that was in reply to the gang-up of posters that usually ensues whenever a female posts something regarding feminism/woman's rights that a few particular male posters don't agree with or find offensive. My concept of adult/adult rape is a violent one-- broken ribs, 3rd degree tearing, bruises-- things likely to be documented by a physical exam. I'm not a rape expert. I can't fathom starting a false-rape accusation, because my capacity to lie is pitiful and I couldn't put the time and energy into a false accusation such as that. My only solution to a false rape accusation is for the accused to get a good lawyer! Don't forget how many female teachers are being imprisoned for having sex with students in their teens-- as I'm sure many of them are technically guilty, it's not inconceivable for women to be falsely accused of rape. The concept of consent is tricky and I'm not a legal expert. This was going to be my answer also Jutta. I feel that one who claims to be raped would have to go to the hospital immediately and there should be some kind of evidence of 'force'. Good answer. I also believe that there are those who have been 'forced' by scare tactics of the man himself and she may never have a bruise. Those who wait a week or month would begin to look suspicious, even if she was petrified to come forth. I would sadly think that this would go against her case. But yes, some signs of 'force' should show up. Any woman who is about to be raped should struggle for her life. It's really a hard topic. Do the professionals not know what to look for? Woman who scream rape when that is not the case should be punished. No human should destroy the life of another unless it is totally for self defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I can't fathom starting a false-rape accusation, because my capacity to lie is pitiful and I couldn't put the time and energy into a false accusation such as that. My only solution to a false rape accusation is for the accused to get a good lawyer! Don't forget how many female teachers are being imprisoned for having sex with students in their teens-- as I'm sure many of them are technically guilty, it's not inconceivable for women to be falsely accused of rape. The concept of consent is tricky and I'm not a legal expert. Yet you are doing so well at making up accusations about the men here. I have no doubt that you believe what you say about us however the trouble is that believing doesn't make it true. I do hope you lean to compensate for your bias. I'm glad you won't cross into rape accusations. I will give you a kudos for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Social equality is a problem for most people, everywhere, it isn't just a feminist issue. That's a big slice of the pie… and I don't believe feminism can handle that entire piece - it's too wide. For some reason, however, attempting to obtain social equality in regards to an issue pertaining specifically to women is often interpreted as "radical feminism". For example: in my country, many people support the idea that employers can deny birth control coverage to female employees while allowing coverage of viagra and claims for males experiencing sexual disfunction. Those who point out the hypocrisy there are often accused of being "radical feminists" by very vocal and heavily funded individuals/ political groups. Honestly, I know of many women who *need* hormonal contraception in order to avoid hemorrhaging, migraines, and nausea every month. That issue never seems to be raised-- even though I'm sure it touches the men who live with women afflicted by such issues... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I can't fathom starting a false-rape accusation, because my capacity to lie is pitiful and I couldn't put the time and energy into a false accusation such as that. My only solution to a false rape accusation is for the accused to get a good lawyer! Don't forget how many female teachers are being imprisoned for having sex with students in their teens-- as I'm sure many of them are technically guilty, it's not inconceivable for women to be falsely accused of rape. The concept of consent is tricky and I'm not a legal expert. Yet you are doing so well at making up accusations about the men here. I have no doubt that you believe what you say about us however the trouble is that believing doesn't make it true. I do hope you lean to compensate for your bias. I'm glad you won't cross into rape accusations. I will give you a kudos for that. I was accused of stating that I hate all men on here by *particular posters*, that I was a b*tch by *particular posters*, that I feel "extra equal" by *particular posters* because I pointed out the habits of certain posters on this site whenever this issue is raised. If I make observations about behavior I've seen happen repeatedly, I will stand by what I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 1, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 It's really a hard topic. Do the professionals not know what to look for? Woman who scream rape when that is not the case should be punished. No human should destroy the life of another unless it is totally for self defense. I agree. On a side note, I think education is needed. Off topic, but I just realized that in my state, there is a program that covers the cost of medical exams after someone has been sexually assaulted. This was during an insurance education class sponsored by my employer. If more people knew about this, more would immediately seek medical care after being assaulted--there would be less guesswork as to whether a claim was false. I'm sure many avoid going to the doctor right away simply due to lack of insurance, fear for their family members finding out via insurance claim paperwork, etc.. Regarding the whole topic of rape-- this happens to men as well. What first comes to mind: the rate of prison rapes in my country is deplorable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Wow , just wow at some of the stuff posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted March 1, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2015 I just wanted to add my 2 cents worth on this topic......my silly opinion for what it's worth.... The world has been filled with injustices since the beginning of evolution. This is the new evolution today, woman taking back some of the power they gave over because we were told that the male species was the more intelligent and stronger species. Unfortunately, the 'made up' god had a lot to do with this. Woman began to fight since the early beginnings a few centuries back and probably a lot further back than this. I also thank those who fought for us. I think this topic is like all the other topics of discussion where the human race wants to evolve further but it is very painstaking for both species because religion has dictated our whole lives right from the beginning. Humans making up god... and what gods' rules would be.. I agreed with Ravenstar because I truly feel we are responsible for ourselves now. I don't want to depend on men anymore to pull the full load. I want to take that pressure off of them. Men have their own pressures and woman can be a pain in the ass. I was a hairdresser for 40 years and I listened to a lot of complaining woman. They wanted it all. The romance, the babies, the perfect house, the perfect man, the perfect income..... That put a lot of pressure on men. I also think a good majority of marriage breakups are caused by woman. The true feminists will hate me, I know!! But it is my opinion. Woman, if they are to become true 'feminist's need to own their part in responsibility and choices. I was born and brought up in the day when you were supposed to meet a man who would be the main 'breadwinner' and you would stay home and have his babies and clean the house. Then came the 60's and 70's where things really started to change. All of a sudden, because of materialism, we needed 2 paychecks. This, I believe was the beginning of disaster for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted March 1, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 1, 2015 merthy.jpg You know you're havin' fun...you devil you!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I can't fathom starting a false-rape accusation, because my capacity to lie is pitiful and I couldn't put the time and energy into a false accusation such as that. My only solution to a false rape accusation is for the accused to get a good lawyer! Don't forget how many female teachers are being imprisoned for having sex with students in their teens-- as I'm sure many of them are technically guilty, it's not inconceivable for women to be falsely accused of rape. The concept of consent is tricky and I'm not a legal expert. Yet you are doing so well at making up accusations about the men here. I have no doubt that you believe what you say about us however the trouble is that believing doesn't make it true. I do hope you lean to compensate for your bias. I'm glad you won't cross into rape accusations. I will give you a kudos for that. I was accused of stating that I hate all men on here by *particular posters*, that I was a b*tch by *particular posters*, that I feel "extra equal" by *particular posters* . . . . Yes and look at how hard you worked to earn it. Perhaps if you would act cool people would treat you cool. And by people I also mean the ones who happen to be men. . . . because I pointed out the habits of certain posters on this site whenever this issue is raised. No, that was not the reason. Your "observations" are often skewed, misleading or outright false. Why don't you respect the men who are respectful to you? I certainly would not ask you to respect a man who hates women or one who is rude. But clearly there are men in this thread and on this forum who don't do that. Picking a fight with them and getting a reaction doesn't count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I was a hairdresser for 40 years and I listened to a lot of complaining woman. They wanted it all. The romance, the babies, the perfect house, the perfect man, the perfect income..... That put a lot of pressure on men. I also think a good majority of marriage breakups are caused by woman. The true feminists will hate me, I know!! But it is my opinion. Woman, if they are to become true 'feminist's need to own their part in responsibility and choices. I see what you're saying, and many people don't live in reality--they live in reality TV. I also see quite a few men my age who want a woman who can be their personal "sugar momma" with good credit and their own house, so they can live marginally employed, while "sugar momma" does their laundry and cooks for them, too. Ugh. I worked in an IVF clinic where I saw numerous women in their 40s who waited for the "perfect life" before they started their "perfect families"-- only to find out that their fertility was far from perfect. Having children and career priorities often conflict directly with one another. I still stand by observations about behavior of certain posters on here regarding this topic. As I said before, the posters who know why they are, know who they are. They love the one-line put downs, the b*tch insinuations, and giving each other rep points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Men.. STOP following your dick and thinking women can't DO for themselves, don't fall for it - it's crap. Men, STOP thinking anyone owes you sex…ever. (sorry guys - I know you aren't all like this but there are enough men who seem to believe that paying for a dinner, or even supporting someone means they get sex Men, women are NOT responsible for your sexual feelings - no matter what. YOU ARE. Men, if you are not sexually compatible with your wife and you can't negotiate it… get a damn divorce and find someone you DO click with… don't cheat. (women too) Stop being so fucking dishonest. Men, be up-front about your feelings… don't hang around with ulterior motives and then bitch that you got used. YOU allowed it. Men, quit bitching about supporting your own damn kids… women, don't use the kids to get back at your ex - that's a seriously NASTY thing to do. Men… publicly stand up for anti-sexism. When you see another guy being a jackass about or to women, call him on it. Yup, sexist jokes too. And stop saying, "that's gay", or using the terms 'girly', 'sissy', 'pussy' or other feminine words as a put down. I quoted these snippets for emphasis. Well said! I agree 100%. These bad behaviors deserve nothing but criticism. Ravenstar, this post was was epic which is all too common for you. I wish we could take your 3,446 posts and publish them into a book. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Men.. STOP following your dick and thinking women can't DO for themselves, don't fall for it - it's crap. Men, STOP thinking anyone owes you sex…ever. (sorry guys - I know you aren't all like this but there are enough men who seem to believe that paying for a dinner, or even supporting someone means they get sex Men, women are NOT responsible for your sexual feelings - no matter what. YOU ARE. Men, if you are not sexually compatible with your wife and you can't negotiate it… get a damn divorce and find someone you DO click with… don't cheat. (women too) Stop being so fucking dishonest. Men, be up-front about your feelings… don't hang around with ulterior motives and then bitch that you got used. YOU allowed it. Men, quit bitching about supporting your own damn kids… women, don't use the kids to get back at your ex - that's a seriously NASTY thing to do. Men… publicly stand up for anti-sexism. When you see another guy being a jackass about or to women, call him on it. Yup, sexist jokes too. And stop saying, "that's gay", or using the terms 'girly', 'sissy', 'pussy' or other feminine words as a put down. I quoted these snippets for emphasis. Well said! I agree 100%. These bad behaviors deserve nothing but criticism. Ravenstar, this post was was epic which is all too common for you. I wish we could take your 3,446 posts and publish them into a book. Agreed, that was an epic post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themonkeyman Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I worked with a girl who acted like a feminist and it gives women bad names they make a joke about guys but when a guy makes a joke about women suddenly its against their human rights 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 "isms, man "isms"....sheesshhhh........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jutta Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I can't fathom starting a false-rape accusation, because my capacity to lie is pitiful and I couldn't put the time and energy into a false accusation such as that. My only solution to a false rape accusation is for the accused to get a good lawyer! Don't forget how many female teachers are being imprisoned for having sex with students in their teens-- as I'm sure many of them are technically guilty, it's not inconceivable for women to be falsely accused of rape. The concept of consent is tricky and I'm not a legal expert. Yet you are doing so well at making up accusations about the men here. I have no doubt that you believe what you say about us however the trouble is that believing doesn't make it true. I do hope you lean to compensate for your bias. I'm glad you won't cross into rape accusations. I will give you a kudos for that. I was accused of stating that I hate all men on here by *particular posters*, that I was a b*tch by *particular posters*, that I feel "extra equal" by *particular posters* . . . . Yes and look at how hard you worked to earn it. Perhaps if you would act cool people would treat you cool. And by people I also mean the ones who happen to be men. Act cool according to what you decide-- which means, I must belittle anything regarding women's rights, or backpedal and complain about how obnoxious people in my own gender are. To be cool by your definition: to let certain posters drown me out in their numbers... so I go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOne Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 themonkeyman, I like how you pointed that double standard out. There are a lot of double standards against women but there are also a ton against men. I noticed everyone freaks out when a girl is naked on a magazine, or when a rapper features naked female dancers in a music video. But there's a ton of shirtless guys everywhere on magazine covers and in music videos and what not...no one bats an eye. Or even how we tell girls that they're beautiful no matter their size and get angry when people fat-shame a woman, but we laugh when a guy gets rejected or made fun of for being short. I don't like how we forget to include men and boys when we talk about good self-esteem and a healthy body image. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I can't fathom starting a false-rape accusation, because my capacity to lie is pitiful and I couldn't put the time and energy into a false accusation such as that. My only solution to a false rape accusation is for the accused to get a good lawyer! Don't forget how many female teachers are being imprisoned for having sex with students in their teens-- as I'm sure many of them are technically guilty, it's not inconceivable for women to be falsely accused of rape. The concept of consent is tricky and I'm not a legal expert. Yet you are doing so well at making up accusations about the men here. I have no doubt that you believe what you say about us however the trouble is that believing doesn't make it true. I do hope you lean to compensate for your bias. I'm glad you won't cross into rape accusations. I will give you a kudos for that. I was accused of stating that I hate all men on here by *particular posters*, that I was a b*tch by *particular posters*, that I feel "extra equal" by *particular posters* . . . . Yes and look at how hard you worked to earn it. Perhaps if you would act cool people would treat you cool. And by people I also mean the ones who happen to be men. Act cool according to what you decide-- which means, I must belittle anything regarding women's rights, or backpedal and complain about how obnoxious people in my own gender are. And... let certain posters drown me out in their numbers... so I go away. That isn't what I think. Why am I so happy with Ravenstar's criticism of bad behaviors common to men? Anyhow "cool" is defined by society. I didn't invent it. I learned it. It is becoming clear that you refuse to be reached. That is a shame. You are welcome to be part of our community but to get there you would have to overcome your bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts