The "christian Relapse"

[Abrooks2007]

Hey everyone.

 

So my apologies for not being as active; work late last year went crazy so i didn't have a lot of time for Internet.

 

Anyhow...

 

I was wondering if anyone has had experience with "relapsing" into Christianity and what that was like for you?  There were a few times that I tried reading my old prayer book and seeing if I 'could' get back into the faith, but each individual time I felt like I was trying to put a virus back into my body, if that make sense.  What was familiar to me at one time now is just alien.

 

I suppose it's the sense of community and supernatural support that I miss, and therein, have been unable to find a replacement for.  For a long time I had relied on spirituality to make sense of situations and circumstances that made no sense, and now that security is no longer there...if it had ever been there at all.

 

Anyhow, I thought I would ask for that insight.

 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

When we are xians we think we have support and security but we don't, it's an illusion.  Those times when you thought god was getting you through tough times, it was you.  You made it through, on your own steam.  

 

It can take a while to get used to the realisation that life is random, bad things happen to good people, and there is no "justice" in the end.  We are all just doing the best we can with what we know.  Life is precious and we are incredibly lucky to be here.  You don't need supernatural beliefs anymore, the reality of the universe as we know it is far more majestic than anything that comes from the bible.

[Penguin]

I haven't relapsed, per se, but I have sometimes wondered--and feared--if I'm wrong. What if there is a God, a Christ, a Hell, and all of that? The truth is this: we cannot know. Christians cannot know. We have no proof of any of it. It takes faith to believe it all exists, and it takes faith to believe it all doesn't exist. The difference is not in our faith, but in the evidence upon which our faith is built. Christians build their faith upon their subjective experiences, their emotions, and a book that most of them hardly read, much less know anything about. Free Thinkers build their faith upon objective examination, their emotions (yes, their emotions), and a critical thought process toward a book that we know something about. That's painting with a broad brush, but I think it illustrates my point.

 

Christianity provides a sense of community and support. So does the Ku Klux Klan. What you miss is the security of the familiar. Diving into non-belief--especially when you're indoctrinated against it--is frightening. Even if you've been a Free Thinker for a long time, there are those pangs of doubt. Everyone experiences them about many, many things. Sexuality. Religion. Social groups. Families. Relationships. We cannot know how things will work out in the end, but it's our faith that will carry us through.

[Geezer]

My decision to leave Christianity was based on several years of studying and researching the origins and evolution of Christianity and the Bible. At some point I knew I was done with Christianity. I suppose I'm fortunate because when I left Christianity I haven't looked back or had any regrets or second thoughts about my decision.

 

I assume people who make an emotional decision to leave their faith find it more difficult that those who based their decision to leave on research and evidence, but that is just my opinion.

 

 

A former believer seeking new forms of spirituality is common. I did go through that stage too. I tried Deism for awhile but that didn't work for me. I also briefly tried a liberal form of Christianity, to appease my wife, but I knew if Christianity isn't true then is just isn't true. So, that experiment didn't last very long either.

 

I think for most people once you lose your faith it's pretty much gone forever. It may take awhile to get to that point but I think for most people it's pretty much inevitable.

.

[Penguin]

My decision to leave Christianity was based on several years of studying and researching the origins and evolution of Christianity and the Bible. At some point I knew I was done with Christianity. I suppose I'm fortunate because when I left Christianity I haven't looked back or had any regrets or second thoughts about my decision.

 

I assume people who make an emotional decision to leave their faith find it more difficult that those who based their decision to leave on research and evidence, but that is just my opinion.

 

.

 

I would agree, those who are driven away mostly by their emotions do--in my experience--have a harder time with their decision. There is more comfort in evidence than in the "pissed at God" aspect. It's science versus morality. Those of us who left--again, in my experience--because of emotion often found some moral failing that was inexcusable. When we finally made the leap, we found that morality more subjective than the science.

 

I'm on medicine kicking my ass, so I hope that makes sense.

[Thackerie]

I haven't relapsed, per se, but I have sometimes wondered--and feared--if I'm wrong. What if there is a God, a Christ, a Hell, and all of that? The truth is this: we cannot know. Christians cannot know. We have no proof of any of it. It takes faith to believe it all exists, and it takes faith to believe it all doesn't exist. The difference is not in our faith, but in the evidence upon which our faith is built. Christians build their faith upon their subjective experiences, their emotions, and a book that most of them hardly read, much less know anything about. Free Thinkers build their faith upon objective examination, their emotions (yes, their emotions), and a critical thought process toward a book that we know something about. That's painting with a broad brush, but I think it illustrates my point.

 

Christianity provides a sense of community and support. So does the Ku Klux Klan. What you miss is the security of the familiar. Diving into non-belief--especially when you're indoctrinated against it--is frightening. Even if you've been a Free Thinker for a long time, there are those pangs of doubt. Everyone experiences them about many, many things. Sexuality. Religion. Social groups. Families. Relationships. We cannot know how things will work out in the end, but it's our faith that will carry us through.

 

Not my experience at all, but then I never actually inhaled (i.e., never was a fundie). Once I reasoned myself out of it through reading and study, it didn't take a bit of "faith" to hold on to the realization that christianity is shit. It's just too stupid to be real.

[mymistake]

Never relapsed, never will.  However I do miss the fellowship.  That part was nice but I can't get it back because one of the Christians will start talking about God and that would ruin it.

[Penguin]

 

I haven't relapsed, per se, but I have sometimes wondered--and feared--if I'm wrong. What if there is a God, a Christ, a Hell, and all of that? The truth is this: we cannot know. Christians cannot know. We have no proof of any of it. It takes faith to believe it all exists, and it takes faith to believe it all doesn't exist. The difference is not in our faith, but in the evidence upon which our faith is built. Christians build their faith upon their subjective experiences, their emotions, and a book that most of them hardly read, much less know anything about. Free Thinkers build their faith upon objective examination, their emotions (yes, their emotions), and a critical thought process toward a book that we know something about. That's painting with a broad brush, but I think it illustrates my point.

 

Christianity provides a sense of community and support. So does the Ku Klux Klan. What you miss is the security of the familiar. Diving into non-belief--especially when you're indoctrinated against it--is frightening. Even if you've been a Free Thinker for a long time, there are those pangs of doubt. Everyone experiences them about many, many things. Sexuality. Religion. Social groups. Families. Relationships. We cannot know how things will work out in the end, but it's our faith that will carry us through.

 

Not my experience at all, but then I never actually inhaled (i.e., never was a fundie). Once I reasoned myself out of it through reading and study, it didn't take a bit of "faith" to hold on to the realization that christianity is shit. It's just too stupid to be real.

 

 

Ah, well, I did inhale. Deeply. Not Jerry Falwell deep, but deep enough. I still think faith in our beliefs--regardless of what they are--is a matter of faith, but that could be a game of semantics, and I'd rather not split hairs on such things.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I've seen it on here a few times, someone that has come out recently will find him or herself drawn back and then proclaim "I was WRONG!! Glory!, etc" Then a few weeks later some come back and can't believe that they fell for it again. Once we've developed the anti-bodies of knowledge and experience, along with some serious questions about why god never DOES anything, the relapse typically doesn't last long.

 

It took me a while to find a circle of friends outside of church, but did so by going and doing things I enjoy with other people.

[amateur]

I meandered back and forth for a couple decades between being agnostic (my family background) and what I now realize was a very liberal, hippy-type, "god is love" type xianity.  The xianity I believed in really was just about love and niceness and getting along with people (things that I still enjoy); I never had any real contact with fundy xianity.

 

Reading a book by Julian Jaynes, "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind" a few years ago made me realize where the concept of gods had come from, and why they made sense at that point in time thousands of years ago.  Then I was finally able to understand that the questions I had had about the crazy bible stories were good questions with good answers, and I was no longer able to sweep them under the rug with the "god is mysterious" and "god can do any magic thing he wants" answers.

 

Life makes more sense now.  I can now read the bible as a book of myths and fairy tales with lots of violence and hatred in them, a la The Brothers Grimm.  And I still enjoy love and niceness and getting along with people.

[Brother Jeff]

 

it didn't take a bit of "faith" to hold on to the realization that christianity is shit. It's just too stupid to be real.

 

 

Yes! Amen! Totally agree! Glory!

[Ellinas]

I suppose there was a sort of mini-relapse in that I tried to turn back to Christianity at the point where I had rejected it only a week or so previously.  Basically it was because of the path out that I took - into an alternative spirituality - that caused me to question briefly a connection between the characters of mythology and satan.  It didn't last long - partly because I knew logically that it was nonsense, partly because I found it impossible to re-convince myself that Christianity had validity of me.  I think it was a relapse that lasted about 24 hours, from memory.

[rach]

Have relapsed multiple times.  Relapse is a particular struggle for those of us who suffer with mental/psychological disorders.  I can be a fervent Christian one day and a fervent atheist the next.  It doesn't even have to take a whole day to "switch".  Switching can happen instantly and usually in response to an emotional trigger.  I've even had relapses when I have allowed myself to start feeling sorry for God, because he seems so goddamn pathetic in the bible and obviously- take a look around- can't ever seem to get any control over this world he's created, and I start to think he must be so lonely being the only one like him, and so I re-convert out of pity for God.  Of course it never lasts long.  In seriously mentally ill states I have been both atheist and Christian at once, which is hard to describe but when in mentally fragile conditions we can hold two contradictory views at once.  I know I am highly susceptible and need to stay away from churches and evangelists because I am too easily manipulated by emotions. 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Have relapsed multiple times.  Relapse is a particular struggle for those of us who suffer with mental/psychological disorders.  I can be a fervent Christian one day and a fervent atheist the next.  It doesn't even have to take a whole day to "switch".  Switching can happen instantly and usually in response to an emotional trigger.  I've even had relapses when I have allowed myself to start feeling sorry for God, because he seems so goddamn pathetic in the bible and obviously- take a look around- can't ever seem to get any control over this world he's created, and I start to think he must be so lonely being the only one like him, and so I re-convert out of pity for God.  Of course it never lasts long.  In seriously mentally ill states I have been both atheist and Christian at once, which is hard to describe but when in mentally fragile conditions we can hold two contradictory views at once.  I know I am highly susceptible and need to stay away from churches and evangelists because I am too easily manipulated by emotions. 

 

I take my hat off to you Rach, for staying the course even though you have those challenges.  You described them very well too.  I can imagine it is frustrating to switch back and forth.  Hugs.

[Justin]

I relapsed once. The indoctrination of hell and someone who watches your every move is a powerful thing to overcome. It's one of religions many, many poisons. I relapsed strictly out of fear, not because of any new evidence or rock solid truth or anything like that. I went back once and it felt as pointless and idiotic as it ever did. I've been out for good now for nearly seven years.

[Lost]

This thread is really amazing and reveals my feelings, emotions that I can't put in words by myself

 

There is a high possibility that if I will end up dying alone, totally disappointed by people, I will call God for mercy as someone who cares, missing days when my mind was full of faith.

 

Unfortunately, when there are different circumstances that come to our life (especially full of suffering) and we have no strength to stay strong by ourselves it's much more likely that we will think "maybe scientists are wrong and there is God, who can help me".

 

It's hard...

[yunea]

Unfortunately, when there are different circumstances that come to our life (especially full of suffering) and we have no strength to stay strong by ourselves it's much more likely that we will think "maybe scientists are wrong and there is God, who can help me".

 

I've done that in the past so much just to ease my mind, thinking there was no harm to it. Well, as long as it's you taking full responsibility of you, then I guess it's not so bad to make up a thought to calm you if it gets you through a very difficult situation... but to really put your faith in a being that may not be there, "submit" to it, trust it'll intervene and perform magic so things will suddenly be better? I think that's crossing the line to where one must be very careful. 

 

As for my experience of relapses... well I get these moments when I miss feeling like I was a part of a big plan that I was unable to understand, feeling like God may have been working through me, feeling like God was communicating to me through coincidences. I used to smile so much over that stuff.

Also I get scared that I've mis-interpreted something and it was a mistake to decide I wanted to have nothing to do with gods. But for me it's a lot like addicts I think... a recovering alcoholic can never again become someone who can have one drink after a rough day at work and that's it. I can't become even a lukewarm Christian again, and I'm frightened to get back into anything that's only superstition. 

 

I've also watched closely how more than one people deny God/Jesus and then "experience a miracle", believe for a while again, and then go into denying again, and both states are full of doubts and fear of being wrong at the same time. 

[R. S. Martin]

About relapsing. I'm not sure if I ever had a truly wakeful intentional plan to go back but those inbetween sleep and wakefulness moments have been strong. Maybe I'd wake up from a dream of being back in my old community with people speaking my mother tongue, driving horse and buggy, in homes without electricity, the familiar traditional dress--living like I lived most of my life and loved it. Nostalgia was a big part, I'm sure, and I'd wonder if I could possibly make it work, if I could twist my brain to fit in without compromising my personal integrity. I'm not sure when the last time was, but it's been since I'm living in this house, so it was at least ten years after leaving the old community. Maybe age has something to do with it; I was in my forties at the time of leaving. Maybe for a younger person it wouldn't last so long. My point is, this is probably natural. And if you need to go back to try it again just to be sure, I don't see any harm in that. I wouldn't really want to because of the social consequences of my situation but it might be different for you. 

[Brother Jeff]

I spent 15 years of my life and then some alternating between periods of devout religious belief and periods of doubt and unbelief and severe substance abuse. I know now that I have bipolar disorder, and when I was more on the manic side of things I was in church praising Jesus and when I was more on the depressed side of things I was drinking and using drugs. Since my glorious de-conversion in 2000, I have experienced several brief but intense relapses into Christian faith. The last time was two years ago, and I am hopeful now that the swings have stopped. I have been stable, without a relapse, since May of 2013. Glory!

[rach]

I think it's good for those of us who have had multiple re-conversions to take a look back and analyze "why did I fall into the trap again? What was I motivated by?"  You may find a pattern.  Mine always occur at times of emotional crisis.  When you're scared enough, you'll do anything. You'll convert to a religion you can't stand.  You'll pretend things make sense when they actually don't, a little subconscious trick to reassure yourself.  At my greatest times of distress the first person I want to call is a minister because they seem so sympathetic and unthreatening.  I mean it's easier to call a minister you've heard preach for seven years- when you know his face and you know how his voice is going to sound, than it is to call a crisis center or go see a psych doctor you hardly know.  And you're first instinct when you're vulnerable is to go towards what you know.  What I've always known is Jesus and his daddy and the churchfolk.  It's counterintuitive to go the opposite direction- which is the new and unknowable.  Part of having multiple conversion and deconversion experiences is that our brains are naturally re-wiring themselves against all that was once familiar and intuitive.  Our brains have been through a major shock and I would call it a trauma.  Over time, and time after time, we are trying to teach our brains, "I know you are accustomed to going this way [back to Christian-Land] but it never works.  We've got to go to uncharted territory".  Our brains and emotions do not like that a bit and they rebel. 

[whitehot]

I feel almost certain that I am going to have a relapse. I kinda live in fear of it! Because I don't know how to be a Christian anymore, and I don't want to suddenly get 'convicted' and have to give up premarital sex... hahaha.

I consider myself agnostic and de-converted BUT I still not convinced that I won't somehow end up repenting and suddenly becoming this incredible Christian witness who has been to the 'other side' and realised that it wasn't fulfilling and held no real answers. Or something. I've seen it happen!

I'm concerned about attending an emotive church service while I'm feeling vulnerable and being manipulated by the music and people who seem to be having a real experience, and something in the sermon seeming bizarrely relevant that 'couldn't be a coincidence'.

I still have this weird desire to attend a church at some point to see if this happens, or if I actually feel indifferent or something. And I kind of want to go to church so I can 'figure it out', you know... deconstruct the experience starting from the premise of empiricism and rationality. I'm not sure if I can let it go until I engage with it some more. I'm not sure if it's good for my mental health to do so, but it feels like a cop out to just exit the church and never go back because it 'wasn't working for me'. I'm too curious about the whole thing. I'm still secretly afraid that it's all true.

What are your thoughts? Anyone ever go to church just to see how it feels to you now? Or find yourself in church for weddings/christenings/funerals pondering the whole thing again?

[mymistake]

I feel almost certain that I am going to have a relapse. I kinda live in fear of it! Because I don't know how to be a Christian anymore, and I don't want to suddenly get 'convicted' and have to give up premarital sex... hahaha.

I consider myself agnostic and de-converted BUT I still not convinced that I won't somehow end up repenting and suddenly becoming this incredible Christian witness who has been to the 'other side' and realised that it wasn't fulfilling and held no real answers. Or something. I've seen it happen!

I'm concerned about attending an emotive church service while I'm feeling vulnerable and being manipulated by the music and people who seem to be having a real experience, and something in the sermon seeming bizarrely relevant that 'couldn't be a coincidence'.

I still have this weird desire to attend a church at some point to see if this happens, or if I actually feel indifferent or something. And I kind of want to go to church so I can 'figure it out', you know... deconstruct the experience starting from the premise of empiricism and rationality. I'm not sure if I can let it go until I engage with it some more. I'm not sure if it's good for my mental health to do so, but it feels like a cop out to just exit the church and never go back because it 'wasn't working for me'. I'm too curious about the whole thing. I'm still secretly afraid that it's all true.

What are your thoughts? Anyone ever go to church just to see how it feels to you now? Or find yourself in church for weddings/christenings/funerals pondering the whole thing again?

 

 

You are wise to guard against it.  Christianity uses emotional hooks to trap people.  They will always try to find some manipulation to get you to stop thinking and assume it is all true.

 

The way I addressed the emotions is through comedy.  I watched every video that mocks Christianity.  I have found humor to be more powerful than Christianity's tricks.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I feel almost certain that I am going to have a relapse. I kinda live in fear of it! Because I don't know how to be a Christian anymore, and I don't want to suddenly get 'convicted' and have to give up premarital sex... hahaha.

I consider myself agnostic and de-converted BUT I still not convinced that I won't somehow end up repenting and suddenly becoming this incredible Christian witness who has been to the 'other side' and realised that it wasn't fulfilling and held no real answers. Or something. I've seen it happen!

I'm concerned about attending an emotive church service while I'm feeling vulnerable and being manipulated by the music and people who seem to be having a real experience, and something in the sermon seeming bizarrely relevant that 'couldn't be a coincidence'.

I still have this weird desire to attend a church at some point to see if this happens, or if I actually feel indifferent or something. And I kind of want to go to church so I can 'figure it out', you know... deconstruct the experience starting from the premise of empiricism and rationality. I'm not sure if I can let it go until I engage with it some more. I'm not sure if it's good for my mental health to do so, but it feels like a cop out to just exit the church and never go back because it 'wasn't working for me'. I'm too curious about the whole thing. I'm still secretly afraid that it's all true.

What are your thoughts? Anyone ever go to church just to see how it feels to you now? Or find yourself in church for weddings/christenings/funerals pondering the whole thing again?

 

Normally I would say go back and try it again, it won't do any harm and you'll soon see that it's all false and you can't "unknow" what you have discovered about xianity.

 

However, because I think you would end up regretting it and beating yourself up about it, my suggestion is to stay away from church unless it's a wedding, christening or funeral that you absolutely can't get out of.   It's not a cop out to just exit the church and never go back, it's a way to protect your mental health.  I think your reasons for leaving are deeper and more meaningful than it not "working for you".  From conversations we've had before, it sounded like you were pretty clear on xianity being an illusion and unbelief being the rational, logical, default position.  

 

Could it be that you are going through an emotionally vulnerable period, that will pass?  I know for myself at these times I am more at risk of going back to believing, so I take extra care to avoid triggers, and I keep in touch with other ex-cs more.

 

I suspect that if you did go back to a church service for whatever reason, it would only strengthen your unbelief.  But why take the risk?  Some people do end up adopting beliefs in other spiritual/religious things, or going back to xianity, but for me I prefer to accept life on life's terms and stick with logic and evidence, even though at times that isn't as emotionally comforting as believing was.  I would rather believe in things that have good evidence. That is more important to me now.

 

There is more beauty and majesty in the natural, material, world than I ever found in that ancient book, with all the immorality, myth, and ignorance it contains.

[ConsiderTheSource]

Try your best to stay inside the logic and reasoning portions of our brains... where real genuine thought and reason lie.  The more primitive portions of our minds are what trip us up and get us thinking "crazy thoughts". 

 

Try to give yourself some 'key words" that will help you mind refocus on it's higher level thought processes.  "Key words" work like rebooting a computer.  These words needs to have a deep important meaning for you personally and your life without fictional deities.  For me, my "key words" are "god is imaginary".  These were the word that finally sprung my mind out of the psycho every Sunday and Wednesday church programming.   Whenever I find myself getting confused, and not properly understanding the immediately world I am facing I just say to myself "god is imaginary".... and my mind is reset back and I begin processing the world properly, genuinely, and logically... using the real and rational part of my mind. 

[Ellinas]

Sounds to me like you have some sort of obsession with the idea of reconversion and this is causing you anxiety.  I would suggest trying to put all thought of Christianity and church out of your head, and possibly seeking some sort of secular counseling if this is uncontrollable for you.