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Goodbye Jesus

Put This In Your Cosmology Basket


Guest end3

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You do realize that is a universe without God and without an afterlife, right End?  It has no creator.  It recycles everything.  The only valid religion would be one that worships the universe itself and that makes Christianity false.

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Neat, I may have to reevaluate something soon, how exiting! Oh, wait... Was I supposed to be terrified of this theory? Cause I'm not. Though I will wait for those more versed in the ways of theoretical physics, cosmology and whatnot to chime in on the end results before making up my mind on anything. Still no reason to assert god.

 

Oh and whats a cosmology basket? Can I have one? It sounds cool.

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How to be so wrong that you're actually right.

 

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Perhaps in End3's cosmology an elephant is larger than the Moon?

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Yep!  Those elephants supporting the world are definitely larger than the Moon.

 

 

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So if the Big Bang didn't happen, what's that prove?

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End, why are you excited about this? Even if there was no beginning...Evolution still counts and is proven. If it's not, why didn't this powerful 'force' allow cave men to have microwave ovens in their caves? It would have made their lives so much easier. Why didn't 'he' give a better teeth? Then we wouldn't have been eaten alive by other animals back in the day where we really had to protect ourselves. Why do some animals have better sight? Why can't we swim under water for hours? A million of these little things would help our survival so much better. It' seems he didn't really give a shit about our protection at all?. This 'god' that had no beginning was still very stupid with 'his' plan for mankind. ''He'' still made us to evolve and go through terrible suffering to make us into what we are today....over millions and millions of years.....

 

I would have made things 'nice' for everyone in an instant, if I had the power of 'The beginning''.

 

I'm rambling and probably off topic....

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18myou0kz7ujejpg.jpg

 

Hey, where are the other turtles??

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C'mon, F!  49.gif

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What's the source of light for discworld?  The Sun!  

Everything else is only seen by reflected light.  So if you go far enough, the only thing you'll see is the Sun - the fainter, reflected sunlight from the Moon, the turtle and everything else will be lost in the Sun's glare.  Go far enough away and all you'll see is the Sun, floating in space.  Go further and the Sun'll look just like another star.

 

So where are all the other turtles?

They're there all right, each with their own Sun.  But they're so far away that each Sun looks like a star.  Every star you see in the pic is actually another Sun, complete with it's own discworld, Moon, elephants and turtle.

 

Ok?

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(Sotto voce, displeased tone of voice.)

I know that you knew this, you naughty little ****.  The above explanation was for End's benefit, not yours.  You know how cosmology confuses him!

 

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18myou0kz7ujejpg.jpg

 

Hey, where are the other turtles??

 

 

The next turtle is so big that it doesn't fit in the picture.  Each one is a million times bigger than the turtle before it.

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End, why are you excited about this? Even if there was no beginning...Evolution still counts and is proven. If it's not, why didn't this powerful 'force' allow cave men to have microwave ovens in their caves? It would have made their lives so much easier. Why didn't 'he' give a better teeth? Then we wouldn't have been eaten alive by other animals back in the day where we really had to protect ourselves. Why do some animals have better sight? Why can't we swim under water for hours? A million of these little things would help our survival so much better. It' seems he didn't really give a shit about our protection at all?. This 'god' that had no beginning was still very stupid with 'his' plan for mankind. ''He'' still made us to evolve and go through terrible suffering to make us into what we are today....over millions and millions of years.....

 

I would have made things 'nice' for everyone in an instant, if I had the power of 'The beginning''.

 

I'm rambling and probably off topic....

I have no excitement about it M. My reason for posting is it's always somewhat startling to me to see when science comes out with something that challenges the previous "truth". In this case its a large contrast. "Wow, do you remember when we thought the Earth was riding on a turtle"? "Yeah, I can remember when we thought the Universe was 13.8 billion year old". "Ha ha ha, have a great day Charlie".

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Oh and whats a cosmology basket? Can I have one? It sounds cool.

We are all riding in a large basket carried by a huge space bunny. When we feel earthquakes, it's really the buddy having a hard landing on one of his hops.

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My reason for posting is it's always somewhat startling to me to see when science comes out with something that challenges the previous "truth".

 

That is because you do not comprehend that science does not proclaim the "truth".  Instead science provides us with the most useful model available.  When a more useful model becomes available scientists are happy to discard the old and replace it with the one that is more useful.

 

It's not like Christianity where the Church Fathers claimed to have direct contact with the creator of the universe so you have to believe this fairy tail that was debunked hundreds of years ago.

 

Will I mind if the Big Bang/inflation model turns out wrong?  Nope!  It won't bother me at all.  I'm always looking for something better.  The one thing it will never turn out to be is that the universe was created 6,000 years ago.

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Except, if I understand the above article correctly, it isn't suggesting that there wasn't a big bang merely that there may have been something before the big bang. 

 

Even if the new evidence completely throws out the big bang (we'll have to wait and see), that's the wonderful thing about science. It adjusts its hypotheses and theories when new evidence presents itself that does not fit with the current model. That isn't a flaw, its an asset!  At least in comparison to a stale, ancient book that never changes despite any and all evidence that contradicts or disproves it.

 

I'm pretty sure that no scientist ever claims to have 'The Absolute Truth', but it has the most feasible theories and hypotheses given that current evidence that we have to hand. At least that is how I understand science.

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End, why are you excited about this? Even if there was no beginning...Evolution still counts and is proven. If it's not, why didn't this powerful 'force' allow cave men to have microwave ovens in their caves? It would have made their lives so much easier. Why didn't 'he' give a better teeth? Then we wouldn't have been eaten alive by other animals back in the day where we really had to protect ourselves. Why do some animals have better sight? Why can't we swim under water for hours? A million of these little things would help our survival so much better. It' seems he didn't really give a shit about our protection at all?. This 'god' that had no beginning was still very stupid with 'his' plan for mankind. ''He'' still made us to evolve and go through terrible suffering to make us into what we are today....over millions and millions of years.....

 

I would have made things 'nice' for everyone in an instant, if I had the power of 'The beginning''.

 

I'm rambling and probably off topic....

I have no excitement about it M. My reason for posting is it's always somewhat startling to me to see when science comes out with something that challenges the previous "truth". In this case its a large contrast. "Wow, do you remember when we thought the Earth was riding on a turtle"? "Yeah, I can remember when we thought the Universe was 13.8 billion year old". "Ha ha ha, have a great day Charlie".

 

 

Hello End3,

 

While I understand your concern that, from a Christian perspective, it seems like physicists 'bounce' all over the place in the heat of theorizing (pun intended), modern science isn't really subject to this kind of "Richochet Effect." Basically, all you're seeing is an article covering Saurya Das' studies and his (and friends) proposal for another cosmological model. The underlying concepts involved are not new but an extension and reconsideration of models that have already come before.

 

Sure, it can be upsetting to Christians when science seems to "challenge" the Bible, but I think Christians should be questioning whether the whole enterprise of hitching their conceptual wagons to modern science has been the correct thing to do in the first place. Fortunately, I was never under the impression that we really had to.

 

So, End3, using the article you've found (an interesting one, obviously), then brandishing it in the face of non-believers probably isn't going to be effective in "re-enlightening" their hearts and minds, or provoking them to come to grips through some new realization. Science doesn't work that way; and people don't work that way, End3. Peace, brother.

 

2PhiloVoid

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C'mon, F!  49.gif

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What's the source of light for discworld?  The Sun!  

Everything else is only seen by reflected light.  So if you go far enough, the only thing you'll see is the Sun - the fainter, reflected sunlight from the Moon, the turtle and everything else will be lost in the Sun's glare.  Go far enough away and all you'll see is the Sun, floating in space.  Go further and the Sun'll look just like another star.

 

So where are all the other turtles?

They're there all right, each with their own Sun.  But they're so far away that each Sun looks like a star.  Every star you see in the pic is actually another Sun, complete with it's own discworld, Moon, elephants and turtle.

I just believe in my heart that it's turtles all the way down.

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Except, if I understand the above article correctly, it isn't suggesting that there wasn't a big bang merely that there may have been something before the big bang. 

 

Even if the new evidence completely throws out the big bang (we'll have to wait and see), that's the wonderful thing about science. It adjusts its hypotheses and theories when new evidence presents itself that does not fit with the current model. That isn't a flaw, its an asset!  At least in comparison to a stale, ancient book that never changes despite any and all evidence that contradicts or disproves it.

 

I'm pretty sure that no scientist ever claims to have 'The Absolute Truth', but it has the most feasible theories and hypotheses given that current evidence that we have to hand. At least that is how I understand science.

 

 

As I understand it the article is proposing that the Big Bang is wrong.  13.799 billion years ago the universe was a small, hot ball that has been expanding ever since.  The Big Bang theory holds that before that the universe was smaller and hotter until you go all the way back when the universe was just a single point.  This new theory holds that this hot ball started out as something else - that it could not have started out as a single point.  Either way we know what happened in the last 13.799 billion years.  

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I love that the discworld resting on the turtle and elephants has a ball-shaped Moon. Ahh, the beauty, I want that as a poster on my wall now.

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Oh and whats a cosmology basket? Can I have one? It sounds cool.

We are all riding in a large basket carried by a huge space bunny. When we feel earthquakes, it's really the buddy having a hard landing on one of his hops.

 

So... That's a no on the basket? Awww... Hey, wait.

 

How can a space bunny be carrying the space basket if presumably the entirety of space is contained inside the basket? Me thinks you haven't fully thought that through.

Besides, earthquakes are too localized to be significantly influenced by cosmological-jostling.

I'm starting to get the impression you don't know what you're talking about.

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End, why are you excited about this? Even if there was no beginning...Evolution still counts and is proven. If it's not, why didn't this powerful 'force' allow cave men to have microwave ovens in their caves? It would have made their lives so much easier. Why didn't 'he' give a better teeth? Then we wouldn't have been eaten alive by other animals back in the day where we really had to protect ourselves. Why do some animals have better sight? Why can't we swim under water for hours? A million of these little things would help our survival so much better. It' seems he didn't really give a shit about our protection at all?. This 'god' that had no beginning was still very stupid with 'his' plan for mankind. ''He'' still made us to evolve and go through terrible suffering to make us into what we are today....over millions and millions of years.....

 

I would have made things 'nice' for everyone in an instant, if I had the power of 'The beginning''.

 

I'm rambling and probably off topic....

I have no excitement about it M. My reason for posting is it's always somewhat startling to me to see when science comes out with something that challenges the previous "truth". In this case its a large contrast. "Wow, do you remember when we thought the Earth was riding on a turtle"? "Yeah, I can remember when we thought the Universe was 13.8 billion year old". "Ha ha ha, have a great day Charlie".

 

 

What your fellow Christian and brother 2Philovoid said.

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Wait a minute, unless I misunderstand the article in end's OP, it's saying that these guys theorize that the universe had no beginning.  That's it's of infinite duration.

 

Doesn't that mean the universe is eternal (ETERNAL, not "a turtle." Just to be clear on this, despite my belief in turtles all the way down.)?

 

If the universe is eternal, then good bye to Yahweh creating it out of nothing.  Good bye to the Kalam Cosmological Argument.  Good bye to William Lane Craig.

 

Good bye to Judaism, Christianity, Islam. 

 

And good riddance.

 

Now, can we please go back to turtles and cat goddesses and Epicurus' atoms moving at random in the void forever?  And just kill each other to get money and sex instead of for religion?

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Wait a minute, unless I misunderstand the article in end's OP, it's saying that these guys theorize that the universe had no beginning.  That's it's of infinite duration.

 

Doesn't that mean the universe is eternal (ETERNAL, not "a turtle." Just to be clear on this, despite my belief in turtles all the way down.)?

 

If the universe is eternal, then good bye to Yahweh creating it out of nothing.  Good bye to the Kalam Cosmological Argument.  Good bye to William Lane Craig.

 

Good bye to Judaism, Christianity, Islam. 

 

And good riddance.

 

Now, can we please go back to turtles and cat godesses and Epicurus' atoms moving at random in the void forever?  And just kill each other to get money and sex instead of for religion?

 

Yep!  That's right, F.

 

End got mad at me, so he posted an article about an eternal universe ...not quite understanding that an eternal universe requires no creator.  

 

And he expressed his surprise to Margee that science keeps changing it's 'truth' ...not quite understanding that science deals in data and evidence, not truth.

 

And that in science a previous 'truth' is very different from a current 'truth' ...not quite understanding how science is a self-correcting process.

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wink.png

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Say BAA, how about a serious cosmology question?

 

Let's assume for a moment that the universe was never as small as a singularity.  At what point with the Big Bang Theory extrapolating back in time do the known laws of physics break down?  For example was it a fraction of a second after the expansion started?  Was it when the universe was the size of a golf ball?  I've heard several documentaries mention that our understanding breaks down under the BB at some point in the past but I was wondering where that point is.

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MM, I believe contemporary physics has a reasonably coherent story to tell until we get to Planck time scales that are around 10 to the -43 seconds. However, grand unification of the forces has not been firmly established, so perhaps it is more reasonable to say that we have a reasonable robust model that works up to the electroweak and possible the strong force separation at around 10 to the -30 seconds or so. I am not a cosmologist, so I am certainly open to being corrected, but I am pretty comfortable in stating that our current models are very good up until we start pushing up into the strong force to gravitational force unification.  In any event, we have good models that go back to an exceptionally small fraction of a second.

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