Justin Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, claimed to have spoke to God and received the "other" testament of Jesus and all that nonsense. In less than two hundred years he has hundreds of churches and many millions of followers around the world. Given two thousand years and the endorsement of the worlds current and greatest super power, how large would Mormonism be? Now, Christians that are not Mormons would easily say that Joseph Smith was lying and such. But what makes him any different than any author of the New Testament? Or Old Testament? How do we know that the authors of the NT didn't pull stories out of their ass and 2000 years later and after being spread by Rome and later other global powers we have a religion that has more followers than any other... With their devotees none the wiser? Really, what makes Jesus or any NT author any different than Joseph Smith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Well, it's because Jesus lives. He walks with me and talks with me along life's narrow way. You ask me how I know he lives? He lives within my heart. The innumerable gods, formerly humans, of Mormonism don't live in anyone's heart. If they say they do, they're lying. Besides, they wear weird underwear. Sorry, seriously - excellent point. As a fundy I would have tried to debunk Mormonism historically and then tried to prove that only the risen Jesus could have moved the stone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindersRemoved Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I've used the same argument in conversations with my christian friends. We actually have a historical record when it comes to Joseph Smith and know about his early life. It was also common for the first Mormon leaders to marry multiple 13 and 14 year old girls. When I went to church, Mormonism was considered a cult. When Romney got the nomination in 2012, all of a sudden it was considered a part of Christianity. I laughed my ass off when that happened. "Under the Banner of Heaven" is a great book that chronicles the history of the Morrmon church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 billy graham endorses romney and accepts mormonism as part of christianity he says it, thats it, it is christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 The authors of the bible are unknown. The names commonly associated with the writings are based on tradition not evidence, because there is no evidence. It is not even known if the prophets that have been traditionally assumed to have had a personal revelations directly from God were even real people. It is more likely they were mythical characters that were simply part of a mythical story. It is rather amazing that Christians will accept the bible as authentic in every way, including the supposed testimonies and personal revelations of the various writers, even though that all happened thousands of years ago, but they will reject people who say they have visions and revelations from God today and quickly label them kooks. Joseph Smith being but one of many examples. Oral Roberts is another one that comes to mind. It seems people will believe just about anything, without any evidence or proof that its true, as long as it has something to do with religion. That is kind of scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 4, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted March 4, 2015 He and everyone else has the right to make up shit just like those who wrote what ended up in the Bible and all the other ancient "spiritual" literature. We tend to attach some extra validity and reverence for older writings, but what's the difference? Kudos to L. Ron Hubbard for making up even sillier shit than we find in the Bible; he still snagged lots of followers. Just the claim that you talked to a god, had a revelation or psychic vision of the "true reality" is enough for some people to unquestioningly believe it. We don't need no stinking evidence, we just want to pretend we know the Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Oral Roberts is another one that comes to mind. Never trust a man named Oral. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I was a mormon as a kid. i don't know if they still do it, this was back in the early eighties, they used to have men/women fast for like 3 days then give a 3-5 hour life long testimony where they cried through the whole 5 hours. as a kid i experienced my first migraine headache listening to all that crap. i also remember telling them when i was a christian that i didn't believe in their crap anymore and even debunked it and they wrote back telling that the 3x5 card with my name on it somewhere in a vault in utah would be thrown out and on the day of judgement i would end up in outer darkness. -oh well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongWayAround Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I appreciate Joseph Smith and the Mormons. I have had a christian (that thinks Joseph Smith is a fraud) ask me how could Paul could have made up all the stuff he wrote in his epistles and why would anyone believe it was the word of god if it weren't true. Joseph Smith is the perfect example of how someone could do that. Any other questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 I appreciate Joseph Smith and the Mormons. I have had a christian (that thinks Joseph Smith is a fraud) ask me how could Paul could have made up all the stuff he wrote in his epistles and why would anyone believe it was the word of god if it weren't true. Joseph Smith is the perfect example of how someone could do that. Any other questions? i also thought when i was a christian, how could paul make up all that stuff if it was false, but you use joseph smith as a perfect example. to answer your question, no i have no other questions, thank you. -me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 The Mormons get their own planet and the other, "real" Christians just get to live in a fairy land in the sky. That makes Mormonism false, after all, who gets to inherit their own planet? Crazy! Talking snakes and a cloud kingdom, now that's pure science. Thank you all for your replies, interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 what is the difference between inheriting the earth, and inheriting the kingdom of heaven? after judgement day will some stay in gods disneyland and others will have to come back here? i never got that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarGazer Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Well, it's easy to discredit Mormonism from a Christian perspective because it tries to disprove Christianity. It calls every Church on Earth an abomination. Mormonism has a similar 'plot' to Islam- Generally normal man visited by Angel, all other religious viewpoints are corrupted, polygamy, child brides, etc. Because Mormonism is saying 'We're the right ones! You're wrong!' (Which is what Christianity does too, but we'll ignore that...), it's all too tempting for Christians to dig out these facts about Joseph Smith being a liar, a con-man, what have you. Typical dirt, that is basic Historical knowledge. They do the same thing to Muhammad. It's harder for them to see this with their own religion, because a lot of the figures are either mysterious or just fictitious. Or to make a long story short, Christians want to feel like they're right and that Mormons are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, claimed to have spoke to God and received the "other" testament of Jesus and all that nonsense. In less than two hundred years he has hundreds of churches and many millions of followers around the world. Given two thousand years and the endorsement of the worlds current and greatest super power, how large would Mormonism be? Now, Christians that are not Mormons would easily say that Joseph Smith was lying and such. But what makes him any different than any author of the New Testament? Or Old Testament? How do we know that the authors of the NT didn't pull stories out of their ass and 2000 years later and after being spread by Rome and later other global powers we have a religion that has more followers than any other... With their devotees none the wiser? Really, what makes Jesus or any NT author any different than Joseph Smith? I've used similar points to defend Smith and Mormonism whenever I hear people trying to portray it as something whackier than any other form of Christianity. Smith did the exact same thing that the New Testament writers did. The most amazing thing is, why there were not more people like Smith writing their own "lost testaments". The dude had some chutzpah to think he could get away with it, but he was apparently a charming son of a gun, and once he was "martyred" by a mob more people than ever started to believe his bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, claimed to have spoke to God and received the "other" testament of Jesus and all that nonsense. In less than two hundred years he has hundreds of churches and many millions of followers around the world. Given two thousand years and the endorsement of the worlds current and greatest super power, how large would Mormonism be? Now, Christians that are not Mormons would easily say that Joseph Smith was lying and such. But what makes him any different than any author of the New Testament? Or Old Testament? How do we know that the authors of the NT didn't pull stories out of their ass and 2000 years later and after being spread by Rome and later other global powers we have a religion that has more followers than any other... With their devotees none the wiser? Really, what makes Jesus or any NT author any different than Joseph Smith? I've used similar points to defend Smith and Mormonism whenever I hear people trying to portray it as something whackier than any other form of Christianity. Smith did the exact same thing that the New Testament writers did. The most amazing thing is, why there were not more people like Smith writing their own "lost testaments". The dude had some chutzpah to think he could get away with it, but he was apparently a charming son of a gun, and once he was "martyred" by a mob more people than ever started to believe his bullshit. Yeah I forgot to add his "martyrdom". Even though he never claimed he was the son of God, he got a religious movement started. In a way he was like Jesus. Was jesus the Joseph Smith of 2000 years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted March 5, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 5, 2015 Always a classic: "Dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted March 5, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 5, 2015 A little more in-depth: Fiction (Mormonism), layered upon fiction (Christianity), Layered upon fiction (Judaism), layered upon fiction (near eastern mythology), layered upon a foundation of fiction (animism and early theistic belief). It's all the same. There can be no difference between Joseph Smith, Jesus, Moses, Egyptian priests inscribing walls, or an ancient shaman claiming divinity in a certain tree or animal..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 5, 2015 Author Share Posted March 5, 2015 It would be neat to rule over my own planet after I died. Lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted March 5, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 5, 2015 You know what part burns me the most in all of this? As a fan of Biblical criticism the whole "Elohim" aspect is the biggest smoking gun. In Smith's time he wouldn't have known that the Elohim in the Bible was an old reference to a polytheistic pantheon of God's all of which fell under rule of El Elyon, who was the most high God. The Elohim were the son's of El. And Yahweh was below the most high God of the 70 nations. This dumb fuck, completely misunderstanding what Elohim even was in ancient Biblical terms, out of the ignorance of his generation, decided to craft this whole story from a foundation of claiming that Elohim was one specific person born on some far off planet and tie it into the Genesis account. I've hammered door to door Mormons about this ignorance of ancient texts as the foundation of their entire religion: But you all know how entrenched apologetic's can be. Oh, that evil secular scholarship. All a trick of Lucifer, err, Jesus' naughty brother....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 Great videos Josh, thanks for posting them. The video with the cartoon laying out Mormonism I had seen parts of on 'Religulous' and had wondered ever since about what the whole thing would be like. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Joshpantera Posted March 6, 2015 Moderator Share Posted March 6, 2015 Another point of interest is in Smith's connection with Freemasonry: http://mit.irr.org/occultic-and-masonic-influence-in-early-mormonism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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