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Goodbye Jesus

Beliefless Christianity - Ritual And Practice Not Doctrines


ficino

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This guy has an interesting concept. A Presbyterian minister, he believes in just about no Christian doctrines. But he identifies and practices as a Christian minister. He contends that there can be vibrant Christian communities that focus on elements of the tradition, worship, action, living, but not doctrines


"Instead of traditional beliefs, they emphasize social justice, personal integrity and resilience, and building community. The cultural artifacts serve as resources."


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/03/17/im-a-presbyterian-minister-who-doesnt-believe-in-god-2/

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Sounds like humanism...

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He sounds confused or desperate.

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Many of the comments to his blog post are interesting.

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I think it's interesting in a way.  It's often been put to me that Judaism and Islam are first, religions of practice, and Christianity is first a religion of creed.  I don't know how well that rule of thumb stands up to analysis... anyway, I think this guy is saying, why not have a Christianity of praxis and ritual?  And soft on the creed?  I sort of like it.  At least it's less awful than a lot of stuff.  I think many people do yearn to belong to nourishing communities that try to serve their generation.

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One of the things that I see with this (because I also tried to go the 'soft new age' route to jesus) is they try so hard to keep a little christianity in there so they can 'fit in' to a certain degree. It's kinda like the fortune tellers we would visit and one of the first things they would mention would be jesus to let us know that they weren't completely  of the devil. They have to justify jesus somehow. These guys just can't admit that the doctrine doesn't work anymore and there too scared to come out. They turn the bible to 'New Age'  to make it work for them. I think this is when many people get out. These of course, are good people who really do want to do some nice things in the community.

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Can't argue with you, Margee (when did I ever?).  Still... so much less awful than so many.

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I don't get it...

 

Why not drop the Christianity bullshit and just turn your church into a weekly conference on any topic? Maybe have guest speakers every now and again. Turn it into a "church" to fight ignorance. I dunno, do something productive with it.

 

I've never understood liberal Christianity, Just pick up Buddhism or something eastern if you want abstract concepts of the supernatural... Judaism, Christianity, and Islam aren't flexible on that subject. Shinto is kinda cool, from what little I've been exposed to, lore wise.

 

Atheist Christian... I don't understand how that works.

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IMHO, like a lot of the Christians we get here, this guy is just making crap up as he goes along.  No one would know about Jesus outside of the Bible, so traditions and opinions and philosophies and etc. are worthless if they don't jibe with the Bible.

 

The Bible, as screwed up and as contradictory as it is doesn't allow for what this guy is doing. BibleJesus would puke this guy out of his mouth, and I feel the same way. If the Bible were true, this guy is going to H E double toothpicks, and if it's not, he's a major waste of time.  

I have a '96 Dodge Stratus that is my only car and my daily driver. It has 240,000+  miles on it and the only thing holding together is dirt and hope. But that's OK! I'll just slap some 2015 Ford Taurus badges on it and it's all good!

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It sounds to me like he's advocating a form of spirituality rather than religion. I get the impression things like Deism, Pantheism, or Pandeism seems to be where his thinking is focused. That kind of thinking sees the universe, and all of creation, as the Divine or the more or other.  That is kind of a cool approach to having some form of spirituality. There are no doctrines, rules, tithing, or praying required. I assume meditation would be encouraged though.

 

If someone is seeking something that would appear to qualify as spirituality that probably isn't a bad alternative to organized man made religions.

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He contends that there can be vibrant Christian communities that focus on elements of the tradition, worship, action, living, but not doctrines

 

Who/what would they worship?

 

Sorry, this is just stupid. Christianity is about the Jesus character in the Bible. The "Christ" in "Christian" certainly promoted doctrines. You either accept the Christ as portrayed in the Bible or you do not. This guy may want to be "spiritual" or still be hanging on to ideas from the Christian religion, but this can't accurately be described as Christianity. Sounds like he doesn't believe in Christianity at all but still wants to make a living at it by pitching a bastardized version to a new audience.

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This guy has an interesting concept. A Presbyterian minister, he believes in just about no Christian doctrines. But he identifies and practices as a Christian minister. He contends that there can be vibrant Christian communities that focus on elements of the tradition, worship, action, living, but not doctrines

 

 

"Instead of traditional beliefs, they emphasize social justice, personal integrity and resilience, and building community. The cultural artifacts serve as resources."

 

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/03/17/im-a-presbyterian-minister-who-doesnt-believe-in-god-2/

 

I think this attitude is actually very common among the clergy, though most hide it better than this one.

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I don't get it...

 

Why not drop the Christianity bullshit and just turn your church into a weekly conference on any topic? Maybe have guest speakers every now and again. Turn it into a "church" to fight ignorance. I dunno, do something productive with it ...

 

You've just described the Unitarian church that I (and a lot of other atheists) attend.

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I don't get it...

 

Why not drop the Christianity bullshit and just turn your church into a weekly conference on any topic? Maybe have guest speakers every now and again. Turn it into a "church" to fight ignorance. I dunno, do something productive with it ...

 

You've just described the Unitarian church that I (and a lot of other atheists) attend.

 

Hmm, I have heard of Unitarian universalism (I presume that's what you're talking about?), and if they are typically like that then I can't say I have a problem with it. Not sure it would be my cup of tea though.

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If someone claims to be a christian and does not strictly follow the doctrines of christ-insanity, then they aren't christians. He sounds like another nut who is doing what all other religions do....making it all up as they go along. 

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I know I'm in the minority (even here) but I don't understand the need to continue to "play church" even after leaving religion. Do not get it.

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A while back I read in an article about street gang and the article mentioned that some people need sense of belonging to a community. That is the reason why so many kids from "not intact" home life are drawn to gang life and they make their gang as a family or a sort of community complete with the "family" rituals. I am drawing a parallel with religions, I think one of the reasons why people are attracted to church is for the sense of community. The shared rituals make people feel belonged in this special community. This is why leaving christianity is hard in society that christianity has taken its root so deep, such as the Philippine and some latin America countries.

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....some people need sense of belonging to a community.

 

I get that. That's why there are myriad clubs, lodges, sports teams and community organizations where people can join and think they're "somebody." The part I don't understand is the desire for a faux church to belong to if you don't believe in any of the things a church represents.

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Bhim talks about how the rituals and traditions of Hinduism, their tie to culture and family, are important to him, and he participates in them. He also has said that he doesn't maintain that God exists, and that members of his family have different views on that. 

 

Comparing Hinduism and Christianity obviously goes only so far, since Christianity is historically a credal religion as almost no other.  Compare e.g. the Jewish "Shma" to the Nicene Creed - little details vs. lots of detail!

 

This guy seems to want to create a Christianity that's not doctrinally centered.  Thackerie compared Unitarians.

 

I don't know whether this guy is sincere or whether he lost his faith but just wants to keep his job.  There are aspects of what is described in the linked article that sound sort of appealing, but I don't think I'll haul off to this sort of thing any time soon.

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I think this sort of thing might appeal more to people who have never been fundamentalists than it does to many of us here.

 

I have extended family members who are Unitarian Universalists. They attend their church for social reasons, as well as to sing in the choir, to participate in discussion and to challenge their thinking on a variety of issues. I agree with florduh that all of these needs can be met in other ways, and yet I can also see how a church of this sort appeals to people. For many people, church is just a safe, free family activity which has the added benefit of allowing for a variety of social needs to be met. My wife was raised in an only nominally christian (anglican) home. She was never really exposed to a lot of the doctrines that we find reprehensible. I can see this sort of thing being attractive to her. From her perspective, it wouldn't really be that different from what she experienced growing up. Personally, however, I find it rather silly.

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