Castiel233 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I don't get it, If He was sinless, why the need to be baptized, If he was born into Sin, then He wasn't God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Some early Christians believed that he was adopted by god at that point and was fully human before being baptized. I think Ehrman refered to them as pro-adoptionists. They did not win in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyson Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Isn't this a General Theological Issues thing? Anyone else find all the sections in the Ex Christian forums a bit confusing... as in there are too many of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Anything can be a rant potentially if you're in the right mood 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Many Christians see it as a demonstration of Jesus' commitment to the Father, a ceremonial beginning to his ministry, and/or an example to his followers of what they were supposed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 I pondered that question too when I was a Christian. Years later when I was studying and researching religion I found out about the Jewish purification ritual called Mikvah. It is very similar to what Christians call baptism and I suspect that is where the tradition of baptism originated. It is a symbolic water purification ritual that is intended to remove all impurities. It is essentially a ceremonial cleansing. I suspect the original gospel story tellers were simply following their traditions. In their mind I suspect their intent was for Jesus to be ceremonially cleansed and purified before beginning his mission. That is the only explanation, or theory, I've found that makes any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Just another thought. Mikvah may also explain the beliefs and traditions of Christian groups like the Church of Christ that take Acts 2:38 literally; believing and teaching that a person is not saved until the waters of baptism washes away their sin. In other words, its the ritual of baptism that actually saves a person. They believe the water is the actual blood, not symbolic, but the real blood of Christ and that blood washes away the sin of the new believer. Yeah, I know. Try explaining to someone the water isn't really symbolic its the real blood of Christ even though it looks like just plain old water. Some say the water is the "Spiritual" blood of Christ. It's difficult to explain some of the thinking and traditions associated with some of the more conservative Christian groups. Some of that stuff takes a whole lot of indoctrination to make it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thackerie Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 There's some speculation that Jesus was actually John the Baptist -- i.e., that Jesus was a legend based on John, a true historical figure. Dunno, just something I've heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Isn't this a General Theological Issues thing? Anyone else find all the sections in the Ex Christian forums a bit confusing... as in there are too many of them? Yeah, I agree. I think it is just part of the de-converting process. I went through that stage too. There seems to be a point when you are no longer a believer per se but you still have questions about the bible and some of the stuff that was programmed into your head. Maybe that could be called the sorting out stage. I think realizing the bible is a collection of myths is a major step in the de-conversion process, and it must be read and understood in that context. It's vitally important for a former believer to realize the bible isn't true in any literal or historic sense. It does trouble me though that so many former believers still seem to think that hell is a real place. Now that is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 There's some speculation that Jesus was actually John the Baptist -- i.e., that Jesus was a legend based on John, a true historical figure. Dunno, just something I've heard. What evidence is there that supports the belief that John the Baptist was a real person? I tend to believe the Jesus character was a new version, or Jewish version, of numerous other pagan demigod stories. There is evidence to support that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 According to some apologists, jesus did it to full fill his peoples righteousness, not his own. He was baptised for repentance for his people's sins, not his own. Hence the doctrine of imputed righteousness. -peace/cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 According to some apologists, jesus did it to full fill his peoples righteousness, not his own. He was baptised for repentance for his people's sins, not his own. Hence the doctrine of imputed righteousness. -peace/cat t That is a good point CC, but the problem with it is that it took nearly 1500 more years for that belief to develop into an accepted doctrine. And it appears nobody really knows why the story tellers decided Jesus needed to be baptized other than the fact that the theology was still in the development stage. And nobody really knows when or why that event was written into the story, as is the case with many mythical stories. Myths are subject to change and edits as they develop over time. They also have a tendency to morph into an unstable ever changing theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Jesus was baptized because it added a +1 to his magic spells and this would have left him open to attack by evil Pharisees at the onset of his quest. Unfortunately, he never found the magic amulet and that led to his crucifixion. Luckily, another player knew the secret location of the virgin tomb and placed him there so he could respawn. mwc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MightyLikely Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 The baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist was a political move. Jesus showed respect to John as a spiritual leader, while at the same time he was endorsed by John as a higher-ranking spiritual leader. Apparently, according to the storyline, the baptism of Jesus was part of a rigorous initiation for Jesus to begin his mission, for it was followed by a vision quest of 40 days in the wilderness. Technically it doesn't make sense that he had to be initiated if he was God, but that is only if you read the story as a factual report. In terms of literature, the Jesus story is the story of a hero's journey, and all heroes on journeys are initiated and tested, whether they are gods or humans. As has been pointed out, baptism is similar to the Jewish mikvah tradition of ritual cleansing although baptism is generally a public ceremony and public affirmation, while a visit to the mikvah requires the presence of three or fewer people, depending upon the purpose of the visit. Christianity focuses a great deal on "setting an example", so the idea is that Jesus did certain things to set a precedent for Christian rituals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 The baptism of Jesus by John the Baptist was a political move. Jesus showed respect to John as a spiritual leader, while at the same time he was endorsed by John as a higher-ranking spiritual leader. Apparently, according to the storyline, the baptism of Jesus was part of a rigorous initiation for Jesus to begin his mission, for it was followed by a vision quest of 40 days in the wilderness. Technically it doesn't make sense that he had to be initiated if he was God, but that is only if you read the story as a factual report. In terms of literature, the Jesus story is the story of a hero's journey, and all heroes on journeys are initiated and tested, whether they are gods or humans. As has been pointed out, baptism is similar to the Jewish mikvah tradition of ritual cleansing although baptism is generally a public ceremony and public affirmation, while a visit to the mikvah requires the presence of three or fewer people, depending upon the purpose of the visit. Christianity focuses a great deal on "setting an example", so the idea is that Jesus did certain things to set a precedent for Christian rituals. So it's part of a story of a hero's journey. I like that, it makes sense as folklore! Just another thought. Mikvah may also explain the beliefs and traditions of Christian groups like the Church of Christ that take Acts 2:38 literally; believing and teaching that a person is not saved until the waters of baptism washes away their sin. In other words, its the ritual of baptism that actually saves a person. They believe the water is the actual blood, not symbolic, but the real blood of Christ and that blood washes away the sin of the new believer. Yeah, I know. Try explaining to someone the water isn't really symbolic its the real blood of Christ even though it looks like just plain old water. Some say the water is the "Spiritual" blood of Christ. It's difficult to explain some of the thinking and traditions associated with some of the more conservative Christian groups. Some of that stuff takes a whole lot of indoctrination to make it work. Oh, and to think that xians laugh at Mormon's magic underwear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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