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Goodbye Jesus

New And Confused


LeikelaRae

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Hi, everyone!

This is a little weird for me to post... I'm still kind of new to all of this stuff, but I guess I'll start from the beginning.

I was born and raised in a Christian family, I was also homeschooled along with my siblings. I attended church regularly as a child, but eventually stopped attending Sunday church as an early teen/teen. I still, however, attended regular youth groups at the local churches in my area.
Because I was homeschooled, I was definitely more sheltered from a lot of things. I couldn't watch certain shows or listen to certain music when I was younger, but eventually the restrictions lightened up over time. All of my friends were Christians as well, because all I did was attend church groups throughout my life.
When I was 15 I got my first real part-time job, and that is where I began being exposed to the "real world". I was made fun of a lot when I first started because everyone knew how sheltered I was. Hell, I didn't even know what sex was until I was about 15 as well.
I slowly, over time, began loosening up on my personal restrictions that I once thought were wrong (i.e. swearing, inappropriate joking, etc.) but eventually I would begin feeling guilty and feel like I needed to "return back to God".
I always questioned certain elements of my faith throughout my life, however, I never really pursued the questions since I was always told to "just believe" by all of my Christian circles. Even my youth leaders told me how I had such a strong faith and they wouldn't ever worry about me. I'm now beginning to realize that it may not exactly be "faith", but more of a "knowledge" that I have about Christianity... and I definitely have a LOT of knowledge about how a Christian thinks.
This past summer was when I actually admitted to one of my friends that "it's not that I don't believe, it's just that I really don't care anymore." I could tell she was a little surprised, but I eventually came back to the faith (out of guilt) again.

I was just recently in a relationship with a guy who helped me see Christianity in a different light, as he himself has been through this too. He showed me more of the science perspective on it and how a lot of Christianity actually cannot be proven.
My whole world kind of "collapsed" on itself because I was realizing that everything I've ever known may not be true. I had ALL of these questions that I never ever would have thought I would be asking myself.
I began realizing that perhaps Christianity, and "God" in general, is just a psychological phenomenon to help humans cope with the ideas of death. I started doing bucket-loads of research just this week, (which is how I came across this wonderful community), and I learned all of the contradictions that the Bible actually possesses. I began REALLY thinking about all of the stories in the Bible and how none of them really make sense. I also began thinking about the concept of Hell and how it never truly made sense to me--how a God of love could send His children there to live in pain for eternity.

It's only been a couple of months of my deconversion, however, I know I've come a long way. I couldn't even admit to myself that I was Agnostic for the longest time... but now I have no problem saying it.

I've read quite a few posts on here, and I know everyone has gone through this in the deconversion process, but I guess I was hoping for some advice. I am currently at the "Am I wrong?" stage. I know, logically, that religion doesn't REALLY make sense, however, I have 19 years of Christianity under my belt, so I keep thinking "What IF it's all true? What IF God is real? What IF Hell is real? What IF God is trying to talk to me right NOW, and I'm not listening? Or is this all in my head?"
I was wondering if any of you had some advice on to get rid of these anxieties and worries. I know that there are so many other religions, so why would Christianity be any more "right" than those? I mean, we're only basing our knowledge of Christianity off of ONE book and "supernatural" experiences and feelings... I just can't seem to shake the "what if" feelings I've been getting recently.

Thank you for reading! I'm looking forward to chatting to all of you. :)

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Welcome to ExC!

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Hi Leikela,

 

Good to meet you--I think you've come to the right place to work these things out. The advice I would give, for what it's worth, is to keep reading, add to your knowledge, ask questions, and try to grow in who you are. There are many different objections, strong objections, to the Christian faith. Many of us here have wrestled with the same things you're wrestling with, and we are more than happy to share with you some of the things that convinced us that we were on the right path when we deconverted. Over time you will likely come to see that what is drawing you back isn't truth, but emotional ties and habitual guilt. Not good foundations for making big decisions, right?

 

Good luck on your journey!

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Welcome, LR!  Most of us go through periods of doubt like you are experiencing.  Keep studying, keep questioning, blaspheme the holy spirit if it gets you over a hump. :P

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Welcome, Hoser-Eh!  and comfort yourself by knowing that immediate steps and decisions are not required.

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Welcome to Ex-C

 

I know exactly how you feel, it's normal to feel doubtful and inquisitive when you're making a change in your life. Ex-C welcomes you with open arms and we're always happy to help you. :)

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Welcome!  I think that you have the right attitude when you say "I don't disbelieve, I just don't care."  Yahweh may exist, but if he does, it really wouldn't be salient to our lives.  He may have curses up his sleeve, but we have courage up ours.  What you will not find on this forum, or anywhere else in the universe, is certainty -- it just doesn't exist.  We live in a precarious and hazardous world.  You can cultivate a thought that may give you a feeling of certainty, but it will ultimately prove to be an illusion that will fall, leaving you in the same position that you are in now.  Yahweh may exist;  his hell may be real;  he may be trying to talk to you.  But much more likely is that Christianity is just the elaborate fiction that you have discovered that it is.  

 

There is no account of the world that you can adopt that will give you certainty.  Embrace the uncertainty and just be flexible for what might pop up next.  Hitchens says something I agree with wholeheartedly:  "The offer of certainty, the offer of complete security, the offer of an impermeable faith that can’t give way is an offer of something not worth having. I want to live my life taking the risk all the time that I don’t know anything like enough yet… that I haven’t understood enough… that I can’t know enough… that I am always hungrily operating on the margins of a potentially great harvest of future knowledge and wisdom. I wouldn’t have it any other way."

 

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Welcome LR!

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Hi, I think what you are experiencing is the basis of Christianity: fear. The entire thing comes down to fear of damnation, fear of being shut out from eternity in bliss. But that is emotional conditioning, and you've had 19 years of it. Many people don't find that so easy to re-program. The reason for this is the way our minds protect information that we consider important for survival. If important information that our parents give us were easily ignored, we wouldn't survive well. So over human history we've developed mental mechanisms that protect the information from being overridden, which is why it is so difficult to reason with believers who treat a belief as though it were obvious reality.

 

So just know that it takes time, often years, and re-conditioning with facts and demonstrable truth. You'll be fine.

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Welcome

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Welcome to ex-c LR! Search for threads that have links to good reads / videos on this site and others. One of my favorite is godisimaginary.com but there are many.

 

Like others have said, time heals all wounds, including religious indoctrination.

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I am currently at the "Am I wrong?" stage. I know, logically, that religion doesn't REALLY make sense, however, I have 19 years of Christianity under my belt, so I keep thinking "What IF it's all true? What IF God is real? What IF Hell is real? What IF God is trying to talk to me right NOW, and I'm not listening? Or is this all in my head?"

 

Welcome to Ex-C!

 

Yes, this is a perfectly normal phase to go through if you've spent any amount of time as a Christian, and particularly if you've been indoctrinated to believe it as a child.

 

Take your time. Don't rush. Earnestly seek out the answers to any questions you may have. While doing so, learning how to think critically and vet sources will help. Learn to understand what logical fallacies are and how to spot them.

 

After a time, you will wake up one day and hear something you may never have heard within your own mind as a Christian -- silence. The sound of only you in your own head, and not a God, or spirits, or even you second guessing yourself. It's amazingly liberating to be the only person inside your head and suddenly becoming conscious of that fact.

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Welcome! Not much I can really say that the others have not already, so just keep your chin up and keep pushing for that knowledge you want. Everyone here is/was in the same boat you're in right now and a lot of people have really good advice and information. I would say feel free to pick the brains of anyone here.

Good luck in the search for the truth, and know that we are here to help you out! :D

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Hello, and welcome!

 

You're experience growing up bears a striking resemblance to my own. This sort of indoctrination is very hard to overcome.

 

I've read quite a few posts on here, and I know everyone has gone through this in the deconversion process, but I guess I was hoping for some advice. I am currently at the "Am I wrong?" stage. I know, logically, that religion doesn't REALLY make sense, however, I have 19 years of Christianity under my belt, so I keep thinking "What IF it's all true? What IF God is real? What IF Hell is real? What IF God is trying to talk to me right NOW, and I'm not listening? Or is this all in my head?"

 

I struggled with this as well. The way that Christianity is set up almost guarantees that apostates will ask themselves these questions. It is a system which declares itself to be true and unfathomable, then predicts that it will be met with criticism and, when it is met with criticism, this is taken as confirmation that the claims of the system are actually correct. It just so happens that circular reasoning works because circular reasoning works.

 

The claims of Christianity must be evaluated on their merits. And there they fail. There is no evidence, and there are no convincing arguments. The only reason we believed it was because we were lied to. It really is as simple as that. I've written extensively on this topic, and would be more than happy to discuss it more with you if you would like. PM me if you want.

 

My advice to you is to keep learning as much as you can, and to stick around. Explore the arguments and the evidence in as much detail as you can. Read books, watch debates, take classes, or do whatever else makes you happy. This forum is a great place to get the opinions of others on what you're learning. There are some really intelligent people on here, and most of us are pretty friendly too smile.png.

 

Glad you're here.

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Welcome.

 

I had no major issue such as you describe but was not entirely free of it either.  I found it helpful to take the time to formulate a basic line of reasoning as to why Christianity was bunk.  In my case it came down to:

  1. The Christian god  is supposedly all powerful, all knowing and sovereign.
  2. Hence he did not have to create the world,  but did so.
  3. He did so knowing that the majority of the beings he created would end up screaming in hell for ever.
  4. Having created all those beings doomed to endless suffering, he has the effrontery to expect to be called a god of love.
  5. That cannot be the act of a perfect, holy deity.

I also found it useful to remember that the early chapters of Genesis conflict with known and verifiable evidence.  Together, all this takes away the foundation of Christianity.  Without a foundation the edifice falls.

 

Having memorized this line of reasoning, I repeated it every time any thought of Christianity possibly being correct arose.

 

In time, the mind is re-programmed by such repetition.

 

Keep at it, take your time, and when the claws of Christianity start to dig in, take the time to sit back and think.  Logic has an unerring tendency to undermine blind faith.

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Wow! I appreciate all of these wonderful and warming replies, everyone! I am feeling quite a bit better knowing that this is a common phase--and I knew it was to begin with.

I will definitely take up the advice you all have: Continued research, asking questions, and thinking critically. I will also definitely be PMing some of you, like you suggested. I'll take any advice I can get!

I guess my thing right now is that my brain knows how it feels: That religion is more of a psychological thing--but my emotions haven't caught up to that point yet. I get that I will never truly KNOW for sure what is true and what is not, because that is simply impossible. However, I guess I am still a little worried that there is some evidence out there, that I haven't come across yet in my researching phase, that proves Christianity is actually correct, and that I'm just being close-minded about it. I know that is irrational, and it looks like all of you wonderful people, (who have done extensive research yourselves), haven't come across any evidence proving it to be true either. It's just an emotional toll, I suppose, that I will have to continue to work on, and I am excited for it to eventually smooth out over time.

Thank you all again, I am so happy to find people who are thinking the same way as myself! :)
(It's still strange for me to even say that because I never thought I would ever be questioning my "faith". Funny how things change, eh?)

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I also have a random thought that I wanted to share with you all:

I just read this article about the debates of whether Jesus actually existed or not: http://www.livescience.com/38014-physical-evidence-jesus-debated.html

 

So clearly there really is no evidence that he did exist, according to this information... now this is probably just the "irrational Christian" side that I've grown up with coming out, but I was told my whole life to "just believe". However, if God/Jesus REALLY wanted his children to believe, wouldn't he make the evidence more evident for us?
Or what IF God/Jesus is almost testing us to see who truly does believe with little evidence? I still don't see the connection between a "loving God" and silly little tests that Christians believe he is doing, however I was just curious of your opinions, or if I'm just thinking way too much about all of the "supernatural" stuff and need to focus more on the concrete evidence (other than the bible).

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I also have a random thought that I wanted to share with you all:

 

I just read this article about the debates of whether Jesus actually existed or not: http://www.livescience.com/38014-physical-evidence-jesus-debated.html

 

So clearly there really is no evidence that he did exist, according to this information... now this is probably just the "irrational Christian" side that I've grown up with coming out, but I was told my whole life to "just believe". However, if God/Jesus REALLY wanted his children to believe, wouldn't he make the evidence more evident for us?

Or what IF God/Jesus is almost testing us to see who truly does believe with little evidence? I still don't see the connection between a "loving God" and silly little tests that Christians believe he is doing, however I was just curious of your opinions, or if I'm just thinking way too much about all of the "supernatural" stuff and need to focus more on the concrete evidence (other than the bible).

 

Why is believing on the basis of faith alone supposed to be a good thing? This is something that has never been made clear to me.

 

When I was a Christian, and first began exploring the other side of some of these issues, the way that I dealt with these sorts of doubts was to assert to myself that if Christianity is true, then God gave me my capacity for reason. Did I really believe in a God who would give me this capacity and then expect me not to use it? When I searched my heart, I found that I didn't. Further, it seemed to me that if a statement is true then surely it ought to be able to stand up to reasoned criticism. If it were to turn out that Christianity couldn't do that, then I would want to know about it. So I persisted in my questioning and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

Claims that God's ways are not our ways, and that we can't understand Him so we must just believe are fatuous. Are we really to base our lives on a proposition that we do not understand, and which all of the available evidence indicates is false? How is this not absurd?

 

I will never be one to tell you that you are focusing too much on one area or another. Look into the things that interest you at the moment. But please, whatever you are thinking about, think critically. Don't fall into the trap of "just believing". As you say, if God really wanted us to believe, then He could convince us without too much trouble.

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I also have a random thought that I wanted to share with you all:

 

I just read this article about the debates of whether Jesus actually existed or not: http://www.livescience.com/38014-physical-evidence-jesus-debated.html

 

So clearly there really is no evidence that he did exist, according to this information... now this is probably just the "irrational Christian" side that I've grown up with coming out, but I was told my whole life to "just believe". However, if God/Jesus REALLY wanted his children to believe, wouldn't he make the evidence more evident for us?

Or what IF God/Jesus is almost testing us to see who truly does believe with little evidence? I still don't see the connection between a "loving God" and silly little tests that Christians believe he is doing, however I was just curious of your opinions, or if I'm just thinking way too much about all of the "supernatural" stuff and need to focus more on the concrete evidence (other than the bible).

 

Why is believing on the basis of faith alone supposed to be a good thing? This is something that has never been made clear to me.

 

When I was a Christian, and first began exploring the other side of some of these issues, the way that I dealt with these sorts of doubts was to assert to myself that if Christianity is true, then God gave me my capacity for reason. Did I really believe in a God who would give me this capacity and then expect me not to use it? When I searched my heart, I found that I didn't. Further, it seemed to me that if a statement is true then surely it ought to be able to stand up to reasoned criticism. If it were to turn out that Christianity couldn't do that, then I would want to know about it. So I persisted in my questioning and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

Claims that God's ways are not our ways, and that we can't understand Him so we must just believe are fatuous. Are we really to base our lives on a proposition that we do not understand, and which all of the available evidence indicates is false? How is this not absurd?

 

I will never be one to tell you that you are focusing too much on one area or another. Look into the things that interest you at the moment. But please, whatever you are thinking about, think critically. Don't fall into the trap of "just believing". As you say, if God really wanted us to believe, then He could convince us without too much trouble.

 

I definitely agree with everything you have said, and I appreciate the feedback and advice. Like I said, I am absorbing all of the advice I can obtain, as silly as some of the questions are.

 

I know I will not allow myself to fall back into the "just believe" mindset, however, I also know that it is probably my body/brain's natural response to the questions I am asking myself.

As you all have stated, it will go away with time, so I'm definitely trying to not let it worry me all too much. It's all really fascinating to me, and I cannot wait to figure things out more and more. :)

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I know I will not allow myself to fall back into the "just believe" mindset, however, I also know that it is probably my body/brain's natural response to the questions I am asking myself.

As you all have stated, it will go away with time, so I'm definitely trying to not let it worry me all too much. It's all really fascinating to me, and I cannot wait to figure things out more and more. smile.png

This is great to hear. The questions are essential. I trust people who are honest about the fact that they have questions. What disturbs me is when people claim that they know The AnswerTM, especially when it turns out that their "Answer" is less than helpful.

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I know I will not allow myself to fall back into the "just believe" mindset, however, I also know that it is probably my body/brain's natural response to the questions I am asking myself.

As you all have stated, it will go away with time, so I'm definitely trying to not let it worry me all too much. It's all really fascinating to me, and I cannot wait to figure things out more and more. smile.png

This is great to hear. The questions are essential. I trust people who are honest about the fact that they have questions. What disturbs me is when people claim that they know The AnswerTM, especially when it turns out that their "Answer" is less than helpful.

 

I absolutely agree! I honestly cannot believe how much my mindset has changed over the last few months--I feel like a completely new person! I'm almost ashamed that I used to be "that" Christian who would say she "knows" she's right and has all of the answers about life.

I also used to be almost afraid of Science, because of the whole Big Bang Theory/Evolution concepts; but now I absolutely love it as it fascinates me to keep learning more and more evidence about life in general.

I find I'm more confident in myself since my paradigm shift and I also feel that I have found such a key component in my individuality. I rarely feel guilty about things I used to feel guilty about, and I am much more adamant about making my own decisions about my life, as I used to do what others told me all of the time.

I guess I'm just overall happy, as this is such a pinnacle stage in my life to really have self-growth, and I can definitely feel the growth that I am currently experiencing through this. It is really interesting to me!

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Also, (sorry for the million replies), if anyone has some interesting books that they enjoyed about the science vs. religion concept, I would love to get the titles! I've been looking at the list of books recommended on this site, but I'm also more so looking for the hard scientific evidence comparing the two of them.
Thank you for the tips! :)

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I also have a random thought that I wanted to share with you all:

 

I just read this article about the debates of whether Jesus actually existed or not: http://www.livescience.com/38014-physical-evidence-jesus-debated.html

 

So clearly there really is no evidence that he did exist, according to this information... now this is probably just the "irrational Christian" side that I've grown up with coming out, but I was told my whole life to "just believe". However, if God/Jesus REALLY wanted his children to believe, wouldn't he make the evidence more evident for us?

Or what IF God/Jesus is almost testing us to see who truly does believe with little evidence? I still don't see the connection between a "loving God" and silly little tests that Christians believe he is doing, however I was just curious of your opinions, or if I'm just thinking way too much about all of the "supernatural" stuff and need to focus more on the concrete evidence (other than the bible).

A truly loving god would not make himself so difficult to detect. It would also be pointless to prove his existence to those who already believe and yet ignore those who long for proof in their own lives. These actions coupled with inaction are not compassionate and affectionate behaviors.

 

And regarding the worn out argument of, "most historians agree that Jesus existed."  Well, what's the religion of these historians? The truth is, much of the world has religious influence. These historians are not immune. Do they examine the "evidence" without a religious bias? Do they have an agenda? For the most part, it's not good practice to use the opinion of others as evidence for anything. Invest the time and research the subject yourself. Of course, many of us do not have that kind of time but for something that demands to be the focal point of our lives, it's a good idea to search it out for yourself.

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Welcome

Doubting is not always a bad thing.  Doubt keeps us open to learning and growing.  My doubt with religion and god was not so much science based on lack of evidence but faith based.  Seeing the behavior of the Christians I had been apart of for so many years and how we could hate and discriminate against the humans around us.  I still had a belief that god may be there but decided to worry more about the people who's lives I was a part of rather than a god who loved so much he could command death and killings but not make a single appearance to use the power to help.  If I'm wrong and I end up in hell at least I will be with friends rather then in heaven laughing at them as they suffer.  

 

Looking at the scientific reasoning after leaving I feel a bit foolish for ever believing.  When you are born into a christian family the brainwashing starts so early and is nothing we think about much because we knew.  I've been told many times in my christian life "Don't open your mind up so much that your brain falls out".  The real fear is that I would let knowledge in and that is what happened. 

 

Life journey is interesting to say the least and I will stumble and make mistakes but I hope I continue to learn from my mistakes.  Didn't do that so much when I had the god power to judge.  I thank goole that I found this site.  I've read some stories and reply's that make me wonder how there can be so much wisdom, kindness and understanding when we represent what I've always been told was the ultimate evil. 

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