Revisiting Deconversion

[NordicShed]

I’ve been on this site before a few years ago. I might even have posted a extimony, but I’m not sure. I don’t remember. I came back here recently because I hit a mental crisis. This surprised me. It was unexpected. It’s been 10 years since I attended church and even longer since everything started to unravel. I came back here because I realised that unless someone has been through this process of deconversion, they cannot understand it. It is the most singularly traumatic experience I have ever had, and I’ve been through a fair few of those. I think I just needed to finally get something down and get some resolve. In a way, the ‘ritual’ of posting on a site like this makes it ‘real’ and final. I have spent a lot of time reading all your posts and drinking up that sense of ‘I am not alone.’ Thankyou. I’ve realised that no amount of reading, understanding or intellectualism can salve the emotional pain of feeling mentally betrayed by the very people who should be looking out for you – but it helps. It’s exhausting, it hurts, but it’s still worthwhile. There’s only so much research one can do. I did so much it feels like I burned a hole in my brain. The emotional stuff still comes crashing through, regardless.

 

I was raised in an evangelical family and church(es) from birth. There was a LOT of drama in my family – immediate and extended – mostly church-related. I have so many stories that range from hilarious to disturbing, but I don’t want to write about specific people here too much or their struggles and pain. Of course it affected me, but when you’re young you don’t have the longer view and you believe the grown-ups. I went on to create a fair bit of drama of my own, mostly I believe because I was wired to think and process the world in a way that just wasn’t helpful to me.

 

I started doubting at the age of about 17. Before that I was probably extremely annoying and zealous. I struggled with relationships. I ended relationships with a few  fine, decent men because they were not Christians, and hooked up with some really damaged people who were.

 

I found life mentally very difficult. I lived with a permanently fractured sense of self. In the secular world I was moderate, sensible, serious, reserved. In church I was the token rebel. For reasons I still don’t fully understand, a group of Christian medical students once asked me to get them some weed before they qualified, because after that they said they would be struck off if they were known to have smoked it. I don’t know why they asked me. I didn’t smoke it, I just had friends who did. That’s funny now, when I think back on it. I don’t know if they every did get their joint.

 

I’m a grown up now, having my second stab at being a teenager. I’m a mother and am no longer married. I’m happy about both of those things. I’m not ashamed of my circumstances. I am ashamed of hurting and judging people through the prism of Christian beliefs and of treating people like they were lesser, lost or damaged by unbelief and ‘sin.’

 

I don’t want to go into the specific details of my life and deconversion, but I thought it might be useful to sketch out the stages that I went through.

 

My Stages of Deconversion

 

1. The Revisionist. Trying to fit and re-interpret theology to explain diverse beliefs and behaviours. Perhaps also making excuses for oneself. Trying to understand why non-Christian friends didn’t have issue with the things I did. Constantly trying to justify Christianity while realising that I wasn’t actually very good at it.

 

1. Taking a long hard look at the facts and often doubting that I actually believed a word of it.

 

1. Information: Finding a book at a Christian festival that blew the lid off a major presumption that underpins Christian theology and eschatology. In this case the history of Israel.

 

1. Stop worshipping or half-worshipping. Realisation that I actually disapprove of the God of the Bible and what’s more, that it’s nothing to do with me. This is a political, historic and religious record of events specific to one small tribal group from a particular place and time. I completely stop attending church. Be careful what you worship. Do a thorough background check first.

 

1. The not-knowing phase. I realise that not knowing is just fine and become comfortable with this phase, realising that nothing bad is going to happen to me if I don’t have the answers. This is a long phase. I’m on a comfortable, warm train. I don’t know the destination, but the view is spectacular and I’m going to enjoy it. I might even take a few naps.

 

1. Atheism. There’s no God. None whatsoever. Everything can be explained by physics, science, evolution and you’re all mad.

 

1. The Reductionist. Trying to understand religious practices and unexplained phenomenon. Reducing everything down to sociological, psychological and anthropological madness.

 

1. Bye bye fear. I realise that I am now free to choose what I watch, read and how I think. I take a long hard look at the things that were previously off-limits. It’s a bit scary at first. Long trip down the rabbit hole without a parachute.

 

1. After many years I realise that there are no opposites when it comes to beliefs. Everything is on a spectrum. I am no longer an atheist, theist or agnostic. I realise that ‘Is there a God?’ is not the best question. I change my questions to:

 

“What is a God?” and “What does it mean to be human?” and “Why do people do this stuff?” and "To what extent am I going to make this matter?"

 

1. My compassion for people of faith returns. I can accept them as people doing people stuff. I’m not consistent in this position because I see so much crap being caused by bad thinking about humanity – religion is to anti-humanity. But somehow I have to get along with friends and family.

 

1. I make a statement to a former church explaining my position. They treat me like I did something really, really bad and dismiss it as erratic behaviour.

 

1. I have a small crisis over a family member who still practices Evangelical Christianity. I feel angry. I realise that I am no longer fully a part of my tribe or my family and will always be regarded as just ‘being difficult.’ I struggle to come to terms with this and feel at my lowest ebb so far. Through the process I am reminded of my mother’s testimony at her Baptism. I was only a small child at this time, but she had written it down and I found her testimony notes among her saved letters and ephemera after she died. Her testimony described how after the birth of her first child, a son, my brother, she had been so enthralled with the baby that she had neglected God. The baby had become the centre of her world, but this was wrong. My mother had been putting us first, putting motherhood first. I can say that she never put us first again after that. I understand it now, though. I am not angry with her. That was the world she was initiated into. Those were her values. It was a small world where doctors and pastors were the ultimate authority. (Until they weren’t). I understand her now and don’t feel there is anything to forgive. She didn’t stand a chance, really.

 

1. I come to terms with knowing that I will always play second fiddle to God and Tribe. I smile, laugh, have a short breakdown that lasts about five minutes, make a coffee and write this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NordicShed]

Edits: Those points should be number 1-13 - and it should say "religion is so anti-humanity"

 

 

Can't find a way to edit...

[wyson]

Edits: Those points should be number 1-13 - and it should say "religion is so anti-humanity"

 

 

Can't find a way to edit...

Yeah, frustrating isn't it?  I think there is some sort of post threshold you have to get past before you are allowed to edit.  I looked and looked when I was new also.

 

My whole family and extended family bar three people are also Christians and I find it best to keep my distance from them.   It does feel isolating but then what can you do?  Luckily my wife, her family and extended family bar a few black sheep are atheists.  Its just so much more comfortable spending time with them.  And its also more comfortable to hang out with non religious friends.  

 

I have found it best to stay away from people of faith in general.  Why bother to try and get along with people who by definition are unreasonable? Unless forced to because of work or some other circumstance,  there is nothing to say that you have to maintain relationships with people you can't agree with.  

 

My limit would be a liberal Christian who had a faith tempered by day to day reality, knowledge of how things in the real world work and a through understanding of limitations of the Bible and a faith that's based on it.  My screaming fundie mum who puts the Bible before any other way of looking at things is way beyond my limits and I limit contact with her.  

 

I don't know why some people think a persons status (mum, friend, president and so forth) should be placed BEFORE who they are as people when making judgements about the depth of personal relationships you should form with them.   Shouldn't the person, namely, who they are as people, be placed first?  Of course a degree of responsibility is conferred in family relationships, but then let those relationships be defined by those responsibilities, not some idealised sense of acceptance, belonging and getting along.

 

If you can't find acceptance in your family, old life / web of contacts move on and try to find people who will accept you and put you first.

[Ellinas]

Welcome.

 

I'm afraid being something of an outsider goes with the territory of deconversion.  You are not alone in that experience.  As stated above - generally best to stay away from the "faithful" as far as possible.  At least that way you keep control of the isolation - and, in time, you will develop your own new circle.

[NordicShed]

 

there is nothing to say that you have to maintain relationships with people you can't agree with.

 

Hi& thanks for the replies. I've probably put too much effort into the above, but effort in fitting in and keeping the peace is exhausting after a while. I've also moved on from a lot of circles too, so both apply. It never occurred to me that I wasn't somehow obliged to maintain relationships I didn't want to maintain. Hehe.

 

Yes, the 'outsider' thing is true. You're an outsider from 'normal' life and from church. It's an abysss if you allow it to be.

 

I think my post sounded a bit whiney because of the deliberate lack of context and detail. It was a moment in Time.

I have no illusions about idealised relationships - in fact quite the opposite. I get irritated by the 'prescriptive' and lack of flexibility, and having expectations heaped on a person without getting to know the individual. Sorry if it came accross as a big whinge. Maybe it was.

[StJeffTheIncomprehensible]

Good to meet you, NordicShed. I can identify with many of your stages here. I wish you good luck on your journey, and I hope you can find much here to help you on your way.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Your post is really excellent, NordicShed!  It helps me conceptualize my own deconversion.  I actually liked it that each of your points was #1 (heh heh).

 

I agree that evangelical Christianity is like a tribe.  Unfortunately, it's absurdly credal.  In some tribes, it's enough to do the rituals.  You don't also have to express belief in every stupid doctrine, as evang. Christianity demands.  Even Catholics can get away with more latitude.

 

Part of the tribe thing for me was the realization that my Catholic tribe's leaders were actively trying to stop legislation that would protect gays and lesbians.  They succeeded in that in NY for many years.  i don't know whether I would have ditched the church over that, but probably I would have eventually opposed its bigoted stance.  As a gay man, I could not support a "tribe" that is trying to be my oppressor.  I had already pretty much stopped believing, but that's when I stopped going to mass.  And I felt absolutely justified in "going on strike" permanently.  The church's actions since then have been just as corrupt.

 

As far as family... all my family are fundies.  We just agree tacitly not to tread on each other's convictions.  I don't get into religious discussions with them.

 

I'm glad you're stepping out and pushing on, Nordic!  When I was a kid, I sort of thought that when I grew up, I wouldn't have emotional issues anymore.  (Though, looking at my mother, I can't imagine how I thought that.)  Hah hah!  At least we've been through some stuff now, haven't we.  And that's some help.

[wyson]

 

 

there is nothing to say that you have to maintain relationships with people you can't agree with.

 

Hi& thanks for the replies. I've probably put too much effort into the above, but effort in fitting in and keeping the peace is exhausting after a while. I've also moved on from a lot of circles too, so both apply. It never occurred to me that I wasn't somehow obliged to maintain relationships I didn't want to maintain. Hehe.

 

Yes, the 'outsider' thing is true. You're an outsider from 'normal' life and from church. It's an abysss if you allow it to be.

 

I think my post sounded a bit whiney because of the deliberate lack of context and detail. It was a moment in Time.

I have no illusions about idealised relationships - in fact quite the opposite. I get irritated by the 'prescriptive' and lack of flexibility, and having expectations heaped on a person without getting to know the individual. Sorry if it came accross as a big whinge. Maybe it was.

 

 

 

It was definitely a whinge!  I think we have all been there.  Sometimes I still find myself wistfully wishing my mom would read a book like the God Delusion and start to question her way of seeing things.... I wish so much I tell my atheist cousin, who then proceeds to laugh AS IF! mockingly in my face and then I snap out of it.  'Tis only human.

 

I also sometimes have vivid daydreams about bumping into old pastors on the street, stopping for a chat only to inadvertently de-convert them through sheer force of reason.  Not sure about this one!

[NordicShed]

Good to meet you, NordicShed. I can identify with many of your stages here. I wish you good luck on your journey, and I hope you can find much here to help you on your way.

 

 

Thankyou, JeffTheIncomprehensible.

[NordicShed]

Your post is really excellent, NordicShed!  It helps me conceptualize my own deconversion.  I actually liked it that each of your points was #1 (heh heh).

 

I agree that evangelical Christianity is like a tribe.  Unfortunately, it's absurdly credal.  In some tribes, it's enough to do the rituals.  You don't also have to express belief in every stupid doctrine, as evang. Christianity demands.  Even Catholics can get away with more latitude.

 

Part of the tribe thing for me was the realization that my Catholic tribe's leaders were actively trying to stop legislation that would protect gays and lesbians.  They succeeded in that in NY for many years.  i don't know whether I would have ditched the church over that, but probably I would have eventually opposed its bigoted stance.  As a gay man, I could not support a "tribe" that is trying to be my oppressor.  I had already pretty much stopped believing, but that's when I stopped going to mass.  And I felt absolutely justified in "going on strike" permanently.  The church's actions since then have been just as corrupt.

 

As far as family... all my family are fundies.  We just agree tacitly not to tread on each other's convictions.  I don't get into religious discussions with them.

 

I'm glad you're stepping out and pushing on, Nordic!  When I was a kid, I sort of thought that when I grew up, I wouldn't have emotional issues anymore.  (Though, looking at my mother, I can't imagine how I thought that.)  Hah hah!  At least we've been through some stuff now, haven't we.  And that's some help.

 

Hi Ficino and thanks for your comments.

 

Good to hear a bit about you and hope you have found a new tribe that's significantly less uptight than the Catholic Church. Denominations seem to get uptight about different matters. I always found that mystifying.

 

I just think about all the time I wasted as a young person worrying about the credal elements of Tribe. Pushing on indeed. Cheers.

[NordicShed]

 

 

 

there is nothing to say that you have to maintain relationships with people you can't agree with.

 

Hi& thanks for the replies. I've probably put too much effort into the above, but effort in fitting in and keeping the peace is exhausting after a while. I've also moved on from a lot of circles too, so both apply. It never occurred to me that I wasn't somehow obliged to maintain relationships I didn't want to maintain. Hehe.

 

Yes, the 'outsider' thing is true. You're an outsider from 'normal' life and from church. It's an abysss if you allow it to be.

 

I think my post sounded a bit whiney because of the deliberate lack of context and detail. It was a moment in Time.

I have no illusions about idealised relationships - in fact quite the opposite. I get irritated by the 'prescriptive' and lack of flexibility, and having expectations heaped on a person without getting to know the individual. Sorry if it came accross as a big whinge. Maybe it was.

 

 

 

It was definitely a whinge!  I think we have all been there.  Sometimes I still find myself wistfully wishing my mom would read a book like the God Delusion and start to question her way of seeing things.... I wish so much I tell my atheist cousin, who then proceeds to laugh AS IF! mockingly in my face and then I snap out of it.  'Tis only human.

 

I also sometimes have vivid daydreams about bumping into old pastors on the street, stopping for a chat only to inadvertently de-convert them through sheer force of reason.  Not sure about this one!

 

 

 

Haha. I really did not want it to be a whinge. A month ago it might have been much more good-humoured. I had hoped being honest and vulnerable would not have come accross as 'whinge'. Well that's my final whine on here I hope. I should have just told the stories and left it there.

 

Call me strange, but I have no ideations about de-converting others. I'm just weary of it. I did have a chat with a very old friend who is a priest a few months ago. He asked me if I 'still had a relationship with God'. He made me three cups of coffee in his fancy coffee machine and we chatted over some stuff. He is one of the kindest people I have ever known, but there's something inauthentic about that kind of kindness with the strings attached. I do geniunely believe he just wants bring happiness to people. My experience in the main is that when you tell people you don't believe that stuff anymore, they don't believe you. They look bewildered and concerned and put it down to a phase or backsliding. You know that look you get? 

[Jeff]

Yes. I know the look. I had to tell a coworker recently that her encouraging me to pray is like telling me to ask Santa for something. She didn't completely get it.

I just mark it up to the way we are wired. Otherwise intelligent people believing in obvious fairytales... Weird once you come out of it.

[wyson]

 

 

 

 

there is nothing to say that you have to maintain relationships with people you can't agree with.

 

Hi& thanks for the replies. I've probably put too much effort into the above, but effort in fitting in and keeping the peace is exhausting after a while. I've also moved on from a lot of circles too, so both apply. It never occurred to me that I wasn't somehow obliged to maintain relationships I didn't want to maintain. Hehe.

 

Yes, the 'outsider' thing is true. You're an outsider from 'normal' life and from church. It's an abysss if you allow it to be.

 

I think my post sounded a bit whiney because of the deliberate lack of context and detail. It was a moment in Time.

I have no illusions about idealised relationships - in fact quite the opposite. I get irritated by the 'prescriptive' and lack of flexibility, and having expectations heaped on a person without getting to know the individual. Sorry if it came accross as a big whinge. Maybe it was.

 

 

 

It was definitely a whinge!  I think we have all been there.  Sometimes I still find myself wistfully wishing my mom would read a book like the God Delusion and start to question her way of seeing things.... I wish so much I tell my atheist cousin, who then proceeds to laugh AS IF! mockingly in my face and then I snap out of it.  'Tis only human.

 

I also sometimes have vivid daydreams about bumping into old pastors on the street, stopping for a chat only to inadvertently de-convert them through sheer force of reason.  Not sure about this one!

 

 

 

Haha. I really did not want it to be a whinge. A month ago it might have been much more good-humoured. I had hoped being honest and vulnerable would not have come accross as 'whinge'. Well that's my final whine on here I hope. I should have just told the stories and left it there.

 

Call me strange, but I have no ideations about de-converting others. I'm just weary of it. I did have a chat with a very old friend who is a priest a few months ago. He asked me if I 'still had a relationship with God'. He made me three cups of coffee in his fancy coffee machine and we chatted over some stuff. He is one of the kindest people I have ever known, but there's something inauthentic about that kind of kindness with the strings attached. I do geniunely believe he just wants bring happiness to people. My experience in the main is that when you tell people you don't believe that stuff anymore, they don't believe you. They look bewildered and concerned and put it down to a phase or backsliding. You know that look you get? 

 

 

I never got that look.  Infact no one was surprised when I deconverted.  One friend who knew me said that with the sorts of questions I was asking, I was either going to become a deep true Christian, devoting my life fully to Christ, or I would turn the other way and reject it out right.  Well, I rejected it outright!  When I told people that I didn't believe anymore, most of them didn't give two hoots.  The people who knew me were totally unsurprised.  The pastor came over for a chat, but I fobbed him off with a tale about doubt and how I may return, faith renewed.  That was 15 years ago.  He didn't come again.

 

It helps that I avoid my old Christian circles.  It was isolating at first, but I gradually started to build networks outside the Church and the faithful and have never looked back.  If I meet religious people now, I stick them in the acquaintance zone pretty sharpish because I have found it impossible to foster real friendships with people who I find totally unreasonable. 

[NordicShed]

Thanks Wyson, for your thoughts and time etc.

 

I worry far to much about not upsetting anyone and trying to fit in, which is unhelpful. I need to look at the acquaintance/friend thing again in a new light and be a bit more realistic and worry a lot less.

 

 

 

[NordicShed]

Yes. I know the look. I had to tell a coworker recently that her encouraging me to pray is like telling me to ask Santa for something. She didn't completely get it.

I just mark it up to the way we are wired. Otherwise intelligent people believing in obvious fairytales... Weird once you come out of it.

 

Hi Jeff. Thanks for your reply. It is very weird after the fact. I can't believe the things I used to say and do. I'm shocked by me.

 

Fairytales are useful to me as long as that's how they are clearly represented - as old tales. There are so many of them out there, it's a shame our culture has found itself dominated by just one for so long.

[wyson]

"I make a statement to a former church explaining my position. They treat me like I did something really, really bad and dismiss it as erratic behaviour."

I don't understand why you would you do this? I'm totally unsurprised by their reaction! Like any institution, acceptance of you is conditional on you sharing their ideology and confirming it. Can you name any organisation, where this sort of thing would be accepted with good grace? Like if you were a member of a political party, even a chess club and you went back to tell them you doubts that what they are doing has any sort of relevance, do you think they would be happy about it and think you wise and wonderful?

Its alright to worry.  These kinds of emotions are real and relevant and point to deeper needs.  I was reading a book called the Chimp paradox which was going on about needing a tribe to cling to, with negative psychological consequences for people who don't attach themselves to one including the worry and anxiety described by you. Because of how we are wired there is a great deal of security to be found in being a part of a group like the Church. What you are describing totally fits the behaviours highlighted in this book.

A tribe could be a small group of friends who really get you. It could be various charity organisations whose work you feel passionately about, where you could volunteer your time. It could be your local political party, or a sports club. It could be anything, or any mix of groups where the core you can share real common ground with other people.

 

And that's the crux of the matter isn't it?  If you reject a groups deepest ideas, in effect, you have rejected them as people as they attach their identities to these ideas.   So what will they do?  Accept your criticism and think you wise and wonderful and uncomfortably reassess their own identities in order to please you? Nope, they are going to reject your criticism and therefore the ideas that inform your identity and therefore you as a person.  Of course if you developed bonds with people outside this group think, these relationships may survive but...

I will stop, I think I'm sounding like a broken record. Good luck to you!