A Conversation With My Dad

[Penguin]

Awhile back, I told my Dad I was having issues believing in Christianity. That was my "toe in the water" to see how he'd react. Yesterday, he asked me about what I meant. I told him I was open to the idea of God, open to him talking to me, but I wasn't hearing anything from him. I also told him I was continuing to search for proof of a god, and I asked my Dad what his proof of god was.

 

He did a lot tapping over his chest in that conversation. He admitted that outside the Bible and outside of his faith, there is no evidence for god or Christianity. He chooses to believe in God because of his "faith." Furthermore, he does not believe he convinced himself of what he believes; it was God "revealing the truth." My Dad and I agree that the truth is absolute. There is either a god or there is not. Both statements cannot be true. On that note, I told him I was looking for truth, and I'm open to the possibility of Christianity being wrong.

 

"You'll find your truth, and his name is Jesus," my Dad said. I told him he was approaching the idea of truth with bias. He said he wasn't being biased, that he was just convinced of the truth. I asked him for his evidence. Cue the heart-tapping. When I asked him about Jeremiah 17:9 (The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?), he ignored the question.

 

My Dad said he could provide a "laundry list" of all the blessings God has given me in my life, but I said that doesn't explain how a loving God can condone rape and murder. If the soldiers of a country follow a policy of rape and murder, not following that policy later doesn't absolve them. My Dad asked me if I felt I was worthy to have the answers to my questions. I said that if God is real and wants a relationship with us, then his book--written to us to reveal himself to us--should be easily understood, without the need to have a clergyman interpret it for us. I also said that if I am truly saved ("once saved, always saved"), then I am seen as fully righteous by God because of Jesus Christ, so if I am as worthy as Christ, then yes, I am worthy to know the answers.

 

"But doesn't it mean God is loving that he sent his son to die for our sins?" my Dad asked.

"Why wouldn't he just get rid of sin in the first place?" I countered.

"He will. In Heaven."

"Why wouldn't he do that on Earth?" I asked.

"Why shouldn't he just do it in Heaven?"

 

My Dad is, unfortunately, dumber than a bag of hammers. He is very simple-minded, to the point that he believes what he is told if it feels good to him or comes from any kind of authority he accepts. He is a zealot, and has always treated me with mockery and disdain. At church, he presented the image of a happy, penitent family man. At home, every day from the time I was 5 until the time I was 18, he yelled at me and at times hit me for things like not putting up the DVDs after I got done using them. To this day I don't know why I didn't call the police; probably because he never left a mark on me, so no one would believe that "such a nice man" could be abusive. After I turned 18, I figured out he stopped hitting me because--at that point--it would've been assault.

 

When I get to the point where I can move out into an apartment and I don't need him or his resources for anything, I will out myself as an atheist. I don't know what that will do to him, but at this point, I don't really care. Wrong or right, I have nothing but contempt for my Dad. I read a story recently about a woman married to a man who was abusive; she stayed with him out of fear and out of a sense that she should "honor her husband, no matter what." Then the guy has a heart attack while she's taking a shower. She quickly climbs out of the shower, but each step to the phone gives her pause as to whether or not she should really try to save him.

 

I empathized. 

[ToHellWithMe]

Interesting. All of it. What I want to say is I really don't understand the last bit. I guess I can't know what your dad is like and what it is like to have grown up under his rule.

At times I hate my own dad with passion. I fantasize about threatening him with death and violence and taking my whitest, blindest rage out on him, but there's also some pity for him, because he has his moments of regret and self-criticism. I suppose I wish that he'll figure things out a bit better.

 

 

 

He is very simple-minded, to the point that he believes what he is told if it feels good to him or comes from any kind of authority he accepts. He is a zealot, and has always treated me with mockery and disdain.

I wouldn't be as gracious as to call that just simple-mindedness, although I suppose certain kind of stupidity must be a requirement. 'Arrogance' would be more fitting in my not-so-humble opinion. Unless, of course, he really is the recipient of the one true god's revelation, which I dare doubt, but cannot really deny.

 

Didn't the Bible also say something about god intentionally misleading certain types of people? If so, I suppose even if the Bible god reveals stuff to him he shouldn't really necessarily be proud about it.

[Penguin]

Interesting. All of it. What I want to say is I really don't understand the last bit. I guess I can't know what your dad is like and what it is like to have grown up under his rule.

At times I hate my own dad with passion. I fantasize about threatening him with death and violence and taking my whitest, blindest rage out on him, but there's also some pity for him, because he has his moments of regret and self-criticism. I suppose I wish that he'll figure things out a bit better.

 

 

 

He is very simple-minded, to the point that he believes what he is told if it feels good to him or comes from any kind of authority he accepts. He is a zealot, and has always treated me with mockery and disdain.

I wouldn't be as gracious as to call that just simple-mindedness, although I suppose certain kind of stupidity must be a requirement. 'Arrogance' would be more fitting in my not-so-humble opinion. Unless, of course, he really is the recipient of the one true god's revelation, which I dare doubt, but cannot really deny.

 

Didn't the Bible also say something about god intentionally misleading certain types of people? If so, I suppose even if the Bible god reveals stuff to him he shouldn't really necessarily be proud about it.

 

What "last bit" don't you understand? The part about the story I recently read? What I'm saying is there are times where I wonder how quickly I might respond if my Dad needed me in some dire circumstance. I don't hate my Dad, necessarily. I just don't care about him. I'm incapable of pitying him. He doesn't deserve it.

 

My Dad is arrogant, in many ways, but he is also simple-minded. He sees things as black or white, right or wrong, clear-cut with no room for ambiguity. He's also incapable of "higher thinking," like forming sentences that make sense and keeping track of genders (he constantly refers to his female horse as a "he" and his male horse as a "she"). There are times I wonder if I was adopted.

[SmokieT]

You got me thinking of the complexity of being my fathers son.  His view on church was it's a good idea to take kids to church so they learn to do what they are told.  Beyond that he hated the hypocrisy of the church but that's as far as it went.  The only thing he and the church had in common is kids need to learn to do what they are told.  He has no idea how messed up I am because of what him and the church managed to drive into my brain is the I can't do anything right. Thinking about it now, I basically had 2 gods in my life and both made sure I always understood I was not good in some way and will never be any good.  The church god made that clear since I was born sinful and unclean.  How to you recover from being born. Dads only passion in life was work and going back one more generation I can see that he did what he did because he didn't want to be like his father. Of his 8 brothers and sisters, dad and his oldest were the only ones who were not raging alcoholics.  Dad did have an addiction that there is no 12 step program for.  He was a workaholic that had no problem putting it above anything. His was never physical abuse but the mental abuse left some deep scars.  A day or two before cancer took him he made a point to tell me that I needed to start taking things seriously or I was going to end up being nothing.  At age 45 I felt like a kid being scolded for not doing chores.  The words hurt but in my determination to not be like my father, I let my daughters know they are more important than anything including work. I hope both my girls know that I love them and do not base that love what they do to make money.  They are good people and I love them.  

 

My choice for leaving the church seemed like the next best move for me.  I needed to get rid of the mind fuck power trip god in my life. I feel I got it right with my girls and that is great but I also need to get rid of the god that keeps me from accepting the rest of the humans on this planet. Leaving those lessons behind I may be on my way to being good enough.  

[LifeCycle]

I had no father but can relate to the dumb parent thing. My mother, unfortunately, doesn't reason very well. And honestly, I think they're largely products of their time. Their generation was ripe with indoctrination and they didn't have as much access to information as we do today. And, as angered as I was by the deceit that is religion and how long I invested my life into and the pivotal, life-changing decisions I made based on it. I still had a large part of my life in front of me. I can't imagine the mountains of emotions one would experience who has lived most of their life focused around a myth, only to find that it well very well be a exactly that. So, holding on - no matter how irrational may be the only option that keeps their sanity. When you critique the religion, keep in mind that you're also at battle with a human who has much of their life invested in it. That can change everything.

[GraphicsGuy]

I haven't posted in ages, but your story got to me, Penguin. Thanks for sharing.

 

My dad was not a bad dad at all, but he was...shall we say...somewhat emotionally unavailable...? Yet, there was lots of emotion. It's a little more complex than that. Hard to explain.

 

We have a great relationship now (me, 40, him, 61), because it really is based on openness and honesty. We know ourselves better and we understand each other better.

 

Looking back, I can see how much my father struggled to understand himself and his own emotions.

 

My father has never officially "left" the church (since he is a pastor/chaplain), but he fully admits how ridiculous and even outright dangerous that a lot of church teaching can be.

 

The most important lesson that I have learned in the last 8 years (since I left church/christianity): everyone is fucked up. Even the "adults" that supposedly seem to have everything together. They don't. The best people simply try to be aware of their problems and work through them as best as they can.

[ToHellWithMe]

What "last bit" don't you understand? The part about the story I recently read?

Yeah. The bit with the hint that you might not help him even if he were dying.

[Burny]

 

The most important lesson that I have learned in the last 8 years (since I left church/christianity): everyone is fucked up. Even the "adults" that supposedly seem to have everything together. They don't. The best people simply try to be aware of their problems and work through them as best as they can.

 

Truth.

[Ellinas]

What you have described seems to me to be a family relationship historically involving a form of abuse based on the need to control; faced with your refusal to conform, I fear you may now find yourself faced with many similar conversations.  The control is unlikely to be willingly relinquished.

 

To be honest, the sooner you can get away, probably the better.

[sdelsolray]

Penguin,

 

Many folks have a dysfunctional parent or two.  Leaving aside the immediacy of your predicament, work hard on not becoming an image of your father as you grow, or at least an image of those characteristics of your father that you deem lacking.

[BinkleyBoo]

I find eveything you share about your dad to be absolutely horrifying, since I knew him and remember very well his reputation at church. He faked us out too. He's just another in the long list of people we knew there who were 'kind, gentle, people of god' at church, but monsters 'in real life'.

 

I look forward to the day of your moving out (we'll come help, by the way), when you can get away from him forever.

[amateur]

This reminds me some of my husband's father, who recently died.  They had a "complicated" relationship (thank you, facebook!), as his dad, while my husband was growing up, was abusive, an alcoholic, and had undiagnosed mental illness.  They  never had a good adult relationship; his parents chose not to come to our wedding five years ago, which didn't bother me in the least (as they are unpleasant people), but hurt my husband.  So he died, and my husband did have a chance to visit him on his deathbed and was able to have a decent talk with him about growing up and they both managed an "I love you."  That part was nice.  But after he died, and the will was settled, and his mom is straightening out finances and living arrangements, I realized that his dad had actually LIED about a couple things on his deathbed!  Who does that?  Well . . . an abusive person with 75 years of undiagnosed mental illness.  

 

I think my husband has handled the complicated relationship fairly well.  He went thru his own years of alcoholism and doing very stupid things and getting jailed for them, but he finally grew out of that and kept a healthy distance from his parents.  He respected his parents, but realized they had serious issues, which he finally learned not to take to heart.

 

Good luck with your own father and your relationship with him.

[Aiyana]

 

What "last bit" don't you understand? The part about the story I recently read?

Yeah. The bit with the hint that you might not help him even if he were dying.

 

I didn't read that as "Penguin might not help him". I read it as, "Penguin read a story where a woman was vulnerable enough to share her deepest, darkest thoughts... and he empathized with those thoughts." I understood. My own relationship with my dad is quite good, so I can't say I RELATE specifically to a bad dad/child relationship, but I understand. I think most, if not all of us, have thoughts about stuff that would make other people say "damn, that's fucked up". It takes courage to admit that those thoughts have swirled around in our minds. It's only human, I think.