Still On My Way Out... 13 Years Later

[offtheromanroad]

Hello there,

 

I am not sure how much I will share in this post – I am pretty new to this forum (never posted, just read some de-conversion posts). I am more than delighted to have found this site since there is really no one that I could talk to about what I have been going through. My friends are either Christian and therefore don’t qualify to talk all things de-conversion, or they are non-Christian and therefore either do not have a clue (no offense) or find my stories about fundie (lite?) Christianity rather amusing or do not know what to make of them. And this is one thing that I have found really difficult: I do not know whom to talk to. And I sometimes wonder if I am going a little crazy up there justing thinking through things and never really saying anything out loud. Or almost never, that is.

 

Please bear with me in case I am making mistakes or not being clear, and feel free to ask for clarification. English is not my mother tongue.

 

Well, where to start? It feels strange to put all of this out on the internets... it feels so private (and well, since my beliefs have change, some of the things I am going to write about now seem very weird to me although I believed in them way back when).

 

My journey out of Christianity ironically began after I had attended a very intense one year bible school in another European country. But let’s get started at the beginning, and I’ll try and keep it short:

 

I was born into a non-Christian family. I’d say all of my immediate family are agnostic/atheist, and therefore I was not baptized – and being baptized as an infant is still quite common where I come from, even though a lot of people are not Christians as in “reborn according to John 3:16”.

 

However, I went to church kids clubs and youth groups from an early age on since my parents thought this to be a good free time activity, and we lived in a smaller village where there was not so much stuff going on (other than sports, church, and so on).

 

Well, to speed this up a little, I was saved at a pretty early age (can’t even remember the first time), was saved again and again — but that’s another story in and for itself—, participated in pretty much each and every youth group activity, camp, bible study, small group, and so on, and became a kid’s club leader and camp counsellor, you name it. John 3:16 and all these other verses will forever be stuck in my mind.

 

Growing up, not everything was that easy, since my family was what you would call “dysfunctional”. So I know that my faith and the friendships I made in church basically carried me through that very difficult time, and I still believe today that it would have been insanely more difficult without all of that. At the same time, my faith also gave rise to some more difficulties since naturally my parents were not always okay with me being a fervent Christian, finally getting baptized against my parent's will at the age of 14.

 

Interestingly, this led to a situation where I was totally in the church, a convinced believer with a lot of Christian friends, but I was also always living “in the world”, having non-Christian friends, and very good friends indeed. Alas, I remember once telling some non-Christian friends of mine that I really was convinced that Mary really was a virgin when giving birth to little Jesus. This makes me laugh today, and at the same time, I am thankful those friends did not declare me wacko.

 

After graduating from high school at the age of 19 (average age in my country/state), I signed up for a one year bible school to get “into the word” and “set time apart for the Lord” and so on, and this included roughly four hours of lectures every day, two memory verses per week, reading all through the Bible and writing a short essay about every single book of the bible, a lot of chores, a missions trip, testimonies all over the place, prayer days, a day of fasting, lectures about wives submitting to their husbands, and so on.

 

I enjoyed that year immensely, but I also realized that there really was some stuff that I could not go along with, some of which had also always bothered me in my own church: I had never believed a skirt ending one inch above my knee would cause a guy to “stumble” (after all, I was pretty self-conscious at the time, and that rule just catered to my confusion). I also did not believe that the girls should be obliged to clean the guy’s dorm. And I had never believed gays to be doomed.

 

Fast forward a little, and here I am, 13 (!) years later. I went to university after bible school, got a first job, a second job, began dating... Almost immediately after starting my studies, I started to “lose it”. I just lost faith. It started with the fact that I was really bothered by all the hypocrisy that I felt was going on among Christians. And, admittedly, I just had never bought into some of the Christian rules, cf. above. This is sure due to the fact that I grew up in a “worldly” family and school system, and that I want to live a free, independent life. And that I am somewhat of a feminist, I admit...

 

To cut a long story short (sorry this has gotten so long), here are some of the things I still struggle with, 13 (!) years down the road. It feels weird having to admit this, and at times, I really feel like this is not normal at all. Here we go:

 

1. I do not really pray anymore, but my subconscious does. That is, I am praying, but I am not really. Gosh, I don’t even know if this makes sense to anybody. Example: I always kind of “pray” in difficult situations/before exams, and before going asleep. It feels even strange to admit this here. It's almost as if I'll have bad luck when not praying. At the same time, I know that my prayers go nowhere, and I like to think I am not superstitious. It’s like my mind is playing tricks on me. Sometimes, it bothers me, sometimes it doesn’t. But why is that still happening after such a long time?
2. I have started to fight this by praying the Lord's prayer as a compromise and some sort of "mantra" since I really do not want to pronounce "personal" prayers. Maybe this is counterproductive... I totally know it sounds crazy (I can hear you laughing, and that's okay!).
3. Most of the time, I am convinced that this whole John 3:16 Christianity is just not true. But I still find myself wondering at times. And then, I am in a place where I say to myself “You know, even if it is true, I just do not care, because I want to be free”. But then... sometimes, there’s that thought of “If it is true, you are probably going to hell...” which leads me to no 4:
4. I do not even know if I’d go to hell, because I was raised in the “once saved, always saved” camp. And this (at times) gives me a bad conscience because in case Christianity is true, I would just really take advantage of this concept since I am now basically doing whatever I want.
5. Bible verses. All these verses. I still could come up with a verse for pretty much every single everyday situation. Annoying, albeit funny at times.
6. I still can’t say “Oh my God” without having a bad conscience. I know this is not that big of a deal, this is just to show how engrained everything is.
7. I have still not told 99 % of my Christian friends where I stand today, and at times, that feels dishonest, although I think I am entitled to guard my privacy about this. At the same time I know I am just doing this because I don’t want to hurt them, and I don’t want to be rejected – although I also think if we’re friends, faith should not be that big of a deal. But in real life, it sometimes is.
8. I am so sorry for everybody that I tried to evangelize (including my family, at one point, but it feels to awkward to tell them I am sorry - I just want to forget about it).
9. Some things that I am really struggling with are these: I still tend to put myself down. I always have a bad conscience (about nothing and everything). I am oftentimes ashamed (about nothing and everything [not in the sense of prude, though, just in the sense of being ashamed of things I am saying or doing]). People who don’t know me very well probably do not notice as much since I live a pretty normal life – have a partner, do “worldly” things, drink alcohol, am outgoing etc.
10. I still have a tendency to think that God is watching, and “sad” that I do not have a “relationship” with him.
11. I still feel guilty/weird telling people I don’t go to church anymore. I usually say "Right now, I don't attend...". Which is not true. I only go when I have to (infant baptism or wedding).
12. I miss the friendships and the deep talks from way back when I was part of a church (while way back when all the snarking/judgmentalism inside of the church got on my nerves, and it still woud today...).

I could probably go on and on.

 

Things I am happy about:

 

1. I am free.
2. I am happy I am allowed to think whatever I want to think (although I feel guilty all the time, cf. above) and do what I want to do as long as I don't hurt other people.
3. I do not have to have pitty on people because they are going to “hell”/be sad we will not “share eternity”. Gosh.
4. I don’t have to worry about the length of my skirt or spaghetti tank tops.
5. Freedom... can I say it again... inner freedom. Although I am still not where I would want to be.

 

I think I could go on and on, but I’ll stop here. I’d be happy to hear what people think about numbers 1 to 11. I mean, it seems pretty strange and crazy, doesn’t it? It feels awkward to write it all down and basically admit that I have this little praying voice in my head...

 

Parts of this text might sound ironic or sarcastic. This is not to make fun of anybody. I think this has become my way of dealing with everything.

 

Thanks for reading, and sorry again this has gotten so long.

 

I’d be more than happy to hear your perspective. As I’ve said before, there are not a lot of people that I can talk to about this.

 

offhteromanroad

[StJeffTheIncomprehensible]

Hi, offtheroad, so nice to meet you. There is a lot in your extimony I can identify with. Thanks for sharing so much of yourself with us.

 

For me, I've not been out of Christianity very long, so I'm still working through a lot of this. But it seems to me that ingrained habits, even habits of the mind, die hard. You may never rid yourself entirely. Especially the guilt, which many ex-religionists seem to struggle mightily with. For me, I rarely feel the guilt of leaving any more, so I can't speak much to it.

 

I rather like having all those memorized bible verses in my head. They've already been put to good use in several discussions I've had with Christians about the inanity of Christianity!

 

I think you'll find many people here who can give you some first-hand advice, and walk along the way with you as you journey through. Good luck!

[mymistake]

Welcome to ex-C, offtheromanroad!  Nice to have you with us.

 

As for your list that stuff sounds very normal for an ex-Christian.  Christianity has a standard pattern of damage - the things it does to a person's ego and mind.

 

 

I had #1 really bad.  When I stopped believing in God I found that I talked to myself instead.  I've been slowly breaking the habit.

 

My solution for #2 was to pray to Captain Kirk.  I said the same prayers in the same way but changed "Jesus" to something I knew couldn't answer prayer.  It worked for me.

 

I struggled with #3 for about a year before I became an atheist.

 

For #4 I had a lot of fear of hell I had to overcome.  

 

I memorized a ton of Bible verses too.  However in time my memorization has faded a bit.  I don't think about them much anymore.

 

Telling Christian friends is always hard.  I've only really told my wife, kids and parents.

 

I feel stupid for the times I tried to evangelize people too.  I'm glad I didn't try that often.

 

I too had huge issues with guilt, shame, low self esteem.  So do most people recovering from Christianity.  It's a bad religion.

 

 

But this stuff will get better.  Again, welcome to the forum.

[Ellinas]

Evening. and welcome to this site.

 

You ask for thoughts on your points 1 to 11.

 

1.  I do not really pray anymore, but my subconscious does. That is, I am praying, but I am not really. Gosh, I don’t even know if this makes sense to anybody. Example: I always kind of “pray” in difficult situations/before exams, and before going asleep. It feels even strange to admit this here. It's almost as if I'll have bad luck when not praying. At the same time, I know that my prayers go nowhere, and I like to think I am not superstitious. It’s like my mind is playing tricks on me. Sometimes, it bothers me, sometimes it doesn’t. But why is that still happening after such a long time?

 

Is this not rather a form of talking to yourself?  Seen that way, it's nothing unusual - judging at least from my own habit of rabbiting away to myself sometimes audibly enough to leave my family laughing their proverbial socks off.  You could try re-addressing your "prayers" to yourself if the nature of your internal conversation bothers you.  At the end of the day, it's a perfectly good way of thinking things through.

 

2.  I have started to fight this by praying the Lord's prayer as a compromise and some sort of "mantra" since I really do not want to pronounce "personal" prayers. Maybe this is counterproductive... I totally know it sounds crazy (I can hear you laughing, and that's okay!).

 

Not laughing.  Nothing wrong with using a mantra if you want to experiment with meditation - but something a tad shorter might be of more use.  If you are simply trying to re-condition your brain, I would suggest the "talking to yourself" approach above might be more beneficial.

 

3.  Most of the time, I am convinced that this whole John 3:16 Christianity is just not true. But I still find myself wondering at times. And then, I am in a place where I say to myself “You know, even if it is true, I just do not care, because I want to be free”. But then... sometimes, there’s that thought of “If it is true, you are probably going to hell...” which leads me to no 4:

 

I take it you know in your own mind it is not true, and you know why you hold that opinion.  Formalize that into a short line of reasoning that you can easily memorize, and repeat it when the doubts arise.  You'll find it a better "mantra" (to use your term) than the Lord's prayer

 

4.  I do not even know if I’d go to hell, because I was raised in the “once saved, always saved” camp. And this (at times) gives me a bad conscience because in case Christianity is true, I would just really take advantage of this concept since I am now basically doing whatever I want.

 

Some say once saved always saved.  Some say otherwise.  The Christians can't agree on how to interpret their "simple message of salvation" - which is a fair indication that it's all nonsense and not worth worrying about.  Certainly it's not worth a guilt trip - just recognize that for what it is, the residue of the brainwashing you've suffered.

 

5.  Bible verses. All these verses. I still could come up with a verse for pretty much every single everyday situation. Annoying, albeit funny at times.

 

You can't "un-remember" them; just dismiss them when the pop into your mind and, in time, they will fade.

 

6.  I still can’t say “Oh my God” without having a bad conscience. I know this is not that big of a deal, this is just to show how engrained everything is.

 

Again, residual effects of brainwashing.  Two approaches - realize that the guilt trip is ridiculous and blaspheme as much as possible until it no longer has meaning for you; alternatively, don't say such things on the basis it is irrelevant whether you blaspheme or not.  Matter for you.  I'd go with the first option, personally.

 

7.  I have still not told 99 % of my Christian friends where I stand today, and at times, that feels dishonest, although I think I am entitled to guard my privacy about this. At the same time I know I am just doing this because I don’t want to hurt them, and I don’t want to be rejected – although I also think if we’re friends, faith should not be that big of a deal. But in real life, it sometimes is.

 

No hurry.  Don't risk confrontations unless you are ready.  But neither should you be overly concerned for their feelings.  If they reject you, the issue is theirs rather than yours.  If you do decide to be open, however, realistically you may need to be prepared to go it alone for a while.  Factor all that in when deciding how and when to act.  Also remember you have no reason to worry about being dishonest - after all, it's the lie of Christianity that has caused this, not your own intellectual honesty.  Therefore, do what you need to do and when you need to do it without any concerns.

 

8.  I am so sorry for everybody that I tried to evangelize (including my family, at one point, but it feels to awkward to tell them I am sorry - I just want to forget about it).

 

Be sorry.  Don't forget.  It's part of what you were - you cannot run away from it.

 

9.  Some things that I am really struggling with are these: I still tend to put myself down. I always have a bad conscience (about nothing and everything). I am oftentimes ashamed (about nothing and everything [not in the sense of prude, though, just in the sense of being ashamed of things I am saying or doing]). People who don’t know me very well probably do not notice as much since I live a pretty normal life – have a partner, do “worldly” things, drink alcohol, am outgoing etc.

 

10  I still have a tendency to think that God is watching, and “sad” that I do not have a “relationship” with him.

 

11.  I still feel guilty/weird telling people I don’t go to church anymore. I usually say "Right now, I don't attend...". Which is not true. I only go when I have to (infant baptism or wedding).

 

I take these together because I think they all relate to the same thing - the residual brainwashing mentioned above.  The only answer, again, is to work out and memorize a rationale that makes sense to you as to why this is a wrong attitude, and to repeat it to yourself as the need arises.  It's a process of re-programming.  It will take time.  It will also get easier.  Good luck.

[Positivist]

Hi, Off! Great post, and welcome!

I can sure relate to your list and your journey. These things take time and it sounds like you're in the right place. 

I hadn't thought of the "deep talks" issue. As a believer I had many of these deep talks. It was super intense. I think that's one benefit of having friends with an identical delusion belief system. And because believing friends are "in love with" the same "boyfriend" (Jesus) there's lots to talk about.

Some friends of mine started a philosophy club, which was a great way of having these deep talks. However, I have not found similar "intimacy" since leaving Xianity.

Hmmmm. Now I'm going to be contemplating that.

Keep posting! 

[yunea]

Welcome to Ex-C, Offtheromanroad! 

 

We're not laughing at all, we understand.

 

There's a lot in your story I relate to. I'm from a Lutheran country too where infant baptizing is common, etc. In fact you sound very, very much like one of my long-time friends, so much that my heart jumped at first from the feeling of recognition, but certain things in your story are also very telling that you're not actually her. I think surprisingly many people go through these things in silence, and it's very good that you're talking about it here now.

 

I see you've been given great advice already, but here's also a couple things I want to say to you:

 

- If there is something you really want to apologize about to people you used to evangelize to, go ahead and do it if you still have their contact info. Say it as clearly as possible, "Listen, I am really sorry I did (say exactly what thing), I've changed a lot since then and regret it now" or whichever wording suits you best, as long as you're clear on the matter and that you are sorry. It will give you closure so you don't have to worry about it any more, and usually people really, really appreciate it when you are really clear and firm about what you have done wrong, and will very readily forgive you.

 

Think of it this way - if someone who treated you badly years ago contacted you just to say how sorry they are about that thing, nothing more but nothing less, just how great would that be?

 

(Well, in the case of your parents, if they're the type who'd be like "told you so, stupid", doing this may not be so beneficial. But with peers it's different. Trying to force yourself to forget won't work anyway, it'll only make you anxious.)

 

- You say you grew up in a dysfunctional family, and all over your post I'm seeing signs of anxiety and being ashamed of who you have been and who you are now. If you are not in therapy, I suggest you give it a try - there are therapy methods that are centered around helping you re-program yourself out of harmful thought patterns. Just make sure you find a therapist to whom you feel you can say it all instead of feeling like you have to protect or belittle yourself.

 

If the above sounds blunt, please don't take offense, it's definitely not "just you". As you read the website, you will find that professional help is suggested a lot here, as many people come here with a lot of damage from both religion and bad upbringing. Many of us are even told at church that God is our doctor and secular therapy and meds are from the Devil, which is further damaging as some of us have actual mood disorders and other illnesses that can be treated very well with today's medication and therapy methods, but have been scared away from trying it until leaving the faith altogether.

 

A little bit of where I'm coming from: For years I had the coping mechanism of belittling myself in every way possible and explaining myself to others in ways that had "I know I'm not worth anything" written all over the gaps between my lines. It was partly that I "knew" I was nothing compared to Christ/God, and it was partly that I was used to being mocked anyway (bullied at school, yelled at at home, etc) and expected it to happen everywhere I went - I thought that mocking myself first would somehow make it less hurtful because thoughts that are already low can't be knocked down any lower. I even thought in some screwed up way that I was, in the end, a kind of "good" person for not being conceited and for watching myself with a critical eye.

 

Well, beating yourself up over everything you do and think doesn't make you a better person, really, it only makes you better at hurting yourself. It's possible to be a decent person without such self-hatred.

 

With professional help and good talks on both this website and some other people, I'm slowly getting over it. It's pretty incredible to realise that you're, in fact, NOT supposed to feel guilty all of the damn time. Life feels very different without the constant weight of guilt and shame on you.

 

Stopping is a lot of work though, our brains want to keep whatever is familiar, even if it's a painful thing that's not helping you get ahead in life at all, and working through it, I for example found myself in a vortex of feeling guilty over feeling guilty and other really frustrating junk like that...   ...before my brain really, really got what it meant to stop.  Whew. 

 

So, I hope you will seek help, but do know that as long as you need, we're an understanding shoulder to learn on. It's a large community with people from very different time zones, so someone here always has the time to listen for a while if you need to vent.  Keep writing and keep reading, I hope to hear more from you! 

[offtheromanroad]

Hi there to all of you,

 

 

Thank you so much for reading and taking the time to answer. It makes me happy to see that some people can relate. I thought I'd try and react to some of what you all wrote:

 

 

Especially the guilt, which many ex-religionists seem to struggle mightily with. For me, I rarely feel the guilt of leaving any more, so I can't speak much to it.

 

 

Hi StJeff,

 

well, for me, it is not so much feeling guilty about leaving, it is giving myself guilt trips for everything and nothing. One example is that at times, when I stand up for myself, there's this old Xian thought of "I should always put others first". Which obviously does not mean to accept everything others are doing. But as some people have said here, I'll have to do my homework on de-programming, I think. Part of giving myself guilt trips sure is my personality, and part of it is fundie or fundie lite Xianity.

 

I rather like having all those memorized bible verses in my head. They've already been put to good use in several discussions I've had with Christians about the inanity of Christianity!

 

Ha, and using those verses in discussions with Christians? I have that secret dream of being approached by street evangelists/Mormons/Jehova's/other Bible thumpers and just giving it to them! Funny enough, they almost never approach me.

 

 

My solution for #2 was to pray to Captain Kirk.  I said the same prayers in the same way but changed "Jesus" to something I knew couldn't answer prayer.  It worked for me.

 

 

Hi mymistake,

I love your Captain Kirk solution. Maybe I should try this. I might have to think about which fictious character I'd like to talk to best :-D

 

For #4 I had a lot of fear of hell I had to overcome.  

 

For me, it is not as much fear of hell. I know I wrote that, but it is much more about the after life as such, I guess. I think right now I tend to believe there will be nothing after death. Just nothing. I cannot imagine "nothing"... (Ha, here we go again... all those thoughts!). I was lucky enough to never really have to have thought about the fires burning in hell. Just sometimes.

 

 

.I feel stupid for the times I tried to evangelize people too.  I'm glad I didn't try that often.

 

I didn't try to evangelize that much, either, but still quite a bit. I just hope all those kids I had to do with remember the love I tried to show them, and not Bible-be Bible-ba...

 

 

I too had huge issues with guilt, shame, low self esteem.  So do most people recovering from Christianity.  It's a bad religion.

 

Interesting to read that a lot of Ex-Christians seem to struggle with guilt.

 

 

 

 

Not laughing.  Nothing wrong with using a mantra if you want to experiment with meditation - but something a tad shorter might be of more use.  If you are simply trying to re-condition your brain, I would suggest the "talking to yourself" approach above might be more beneficial.

 

Ha, I am not a meditation kind of person, it's -- like you say -- more that I want to re-condition my brain. Otherwise I'll go crazy sooner or later. I really might have to find something shorter. I might also try and talk to myself, although I have to admit that it feels strange after some 20 years of hardcore praying. Talking to myself instead of almighty Father, Son, Spirit? Seems a bit arrogant, doesn't it? ;-)

 

 

I take it you know in your own mind it is not true, and you know why you hold that opinion.  Formalize that into a short line of reasoning that you can easily memorize, and repeat it when the doubts arise.  You'll find it a better "mantra" (to use your term) than the Lord's prayer

 

 

Hm. Interesting. I really do not have a line of reasoning other than Xianity seems to be BS, nonsense, arrogant, hypocritical, dangerous... and so on. I even think some principles quoted in the Bible are very reasonable (love your neighbour and so on). But the concept as a whole? I'd like to think I am done and over with it. But I know I am not yet, at least not 100 %.

 

I take these together because I think they all relate to the same thing - the residual brainwashing mentioned above.  The only answer, again, is to work out and memorize a rationale that makes sense to you as to why this is a wrong attitude, and to repeat it to yourself as the need arises.  It's a process of re-programming.  It will take time.  It will also get easier.  Good luck.

 

 

 

Thank you so much for saying this, Ellinas.

 

 

Hi Positivist, 

 

 

 

However, I have not found similar "intimacy" since leaving Xianity.

 

 

Yes, this pretty much sums it up. I sometimes just wonder how intimate all of this really was, or if it was just intimate in that Christian setting, adhering to the rules set by the community.

 

 

 

Keep posting! 

 

 

Thanks for saying this.

 

 

Welcome to Ex-C, Offtheromanroad! 

 

Thanks, yunea.

 

 

(Well, in the case of your parents, if they're the type who'd be like "told you so, stupid", doing this may not be so beneficial. But with peers it's different. Trying to force yourself to forget won't work anyway, it'll only make you anxious.)

 

 

Well, thanks for this piece of advice. It really just is my parents/immediate family. So I'll have to think about that for a while. There are not so many others that I bothered too much, I guess, and I bothered my family really just once (stupid testimonial letter sent from bible school; got carried away by it all.)

 

- You say you grew up in a dysfunctional family, and all over your post I'm seeing signs of anxiety and being ashamed of who you have been and who you are now. If you are not in therapy, I suggest you give it a try - there are therapy methods that are centered around helping you re-program yourself out of harmful thought patterns. Just make sure you find a therapist to whom you feel you can say it all instead of feeling like you have to protect or belittle yourself.

 

 

Thanks, yunea. This just made me cry. You really seem to understand. I think the key word here is "harmful thought patterns". I talked to somebody about this years ago, and I am right now thinking about doing so again. I just do not know how to start the process. I will see.

 

If the above sounds blunt, please don't take offense, it's definitely not "just you". As you read the website, you will find that professional help is suggested a lot here, as many people come here with a lot of damage from both religion and bad upbringing. Many of us are even told at church that God is our doctor and secular therapy and meds are from the Devil, which is further damaging as some of us have actual mood disorders and other illnesses that can be treated very well with today's medication and therapy methods, but have been scared away from trying it until leaving the faith altogether.

 

 

Thanks for typing this out. I am not at all offended, and I believe secular therapy (phsycological/physical) to be very important to heal/stay sane. I've always thought secular therapy to be good - even in my fundie lite years. I just reasoned medicine was something given by god/God (oh, all these capital letters...).

 

Well, beating yourself up over everything you do and think doesn't make you a better person, really, it only makes you better at hurting yourself. It's possible to be a decent person without such self-hatred.

 

 

 

Yes, so true. But so hard to put into practice. I can't really imagine how it'd feel to not feel guilty, I guess.

 

 I for example found myself in a vortex of feeling guilty over feeling guilty and other really frustrating junk like that...   ...

I hear you! Beating myself up for beating myself up! Totally! Vicious circle.

 

So, I hope you will seek help, but do know that as long as you need, we're an understanding shoulder to learn on. It's a large community with people from very different time zones, so someone here always has the time to listen for a while if you need to vent.  Keep writing and keep reading, I hope to hear more from you! 

 

Thank you! I would be more than happy to hear more from you. I might not be your friend (but who knows?), but I'll be happy to get to know you a little better. Thanks also for sharing parts of your own story. It is good to know I am not alone.

 

In the meantime, I've also come up with some more list stuff, in case you're interested:

 

negative:

 

12. I miss the music, and I miss singing. I do not miss "worship lyrics", though. It is just that music and singing helps me destress. However, I am not a good singer, so I don't really want to sing out loud in public. I realize that singing in church really was not that bad: nobody really cared if you get the harmonies right. I've even thought about going to a sunday service just for the music. But I know the lyrics will make me angry/make me laugh/trigger something/make me feel guilty (sorry, I know you can see a pattern by now ;-)), and I do not really want to sing them in public since I do not mean them.

 

13. I miss camp.

 

positive:

 

6. I do not have to attend boring small group meetings anymore.

 

Have a great Easter sunday.

[offtheromanroad]

P. S.: It'd be great if somebody had mercy pitty* on me and would be willing to tell me how to edit posts? I really can't find the edit button... sorry!

 

offtheroad

 

* All that Xian language would be worth an essay for itself. But I am sure loads of people have already discussed this before. There are so many expression that make me remember my Xian days, especially since the bible school I attended was in English.

[StJeffTheIncomprehensible]

Hi there to all of you,

 

 

Thank you so much for reading and taking the time to answer. It makes me happy to see that some people can relate. I thought I'd try and react to some of what you all wrote:

 

 

Especially the guilt, which many ex-religionists seem to struggle mightily with. For me, I rarely feel the guilt of leaving any more, so I can't speak much to it.

 

 

Hi StJeff,

 

well, for me, it is not so much feeling guilty about leaving, it is giving myself guilt trips for everything and nothing. One example is that at times, when I stand up for myself, there's this old Xian thought of "I should always put others first". Which obviously does not mean to accept everything others are doing. But as some people have said here, I'll have to do my homework on de-programming, I think. Part of giving myself guilt trips sure is my personality, and part of it is fundie or fundie lite Xianity.

 

 

 

That kind of guilt is probably much harder to deal with, for the very reasons you mention here.

 

It sounds like you have a good handle on the causes and functionality of the guilt complex; it's now a matter of doing the daily work of "renewing your mind" (one of those pesky bible quotes that I can't get rid of!) to recognize that there's no reason to suppose a supernatural being with some universal moral standard by which to judge your guilt or innocence. I do think some personalities are more susceptible to false guilt, and your work here may be more difficult than it would be for others. For me, whatever guilt I felt was tied directly to my belief in a supernatural being. Once I admitted there was no evidence for such a being, I had little trouble ridding myself of the guilt for being human. But I have profound sympathy for those who struggle more with this than I did. I'm rooting for you!

 

Oh, the editing thing--it comes after a certain number of posts, I forget how many. 10 I think. It's like a reward for sticking it out for a while and becoming part of the community, I guess.

[offtheromanroad]

It sounds like you have a good handle on the causes and functionality of the guilt complex; it's now a matter of doing the daily work of "renewing your mind" (one of those pesky bible quotes that I can't get rid of!) to recognize that there's no reason to suppose a supernatural being with some universal moral standard by which to judge your guilt or innocence.

 

Brilliant, StJeff! The "renewing your mind" quote made me laugh out loud.

 

But you are right. It is all about renewing my mind. I think it really might be my subconscious, heavily influenced by Xianity and my upbrining, playing tricks on me.

 

I have also found feeling guilty all the time does not really help in real life. Sometimes one just has to confront other people without giving oneself a guilt trip immediately after. I really have to learn how to do that. I am already trying to.

 

I'm rooting for you!

 

Thank you so much!

[offtheromanroad]

P. S. Thanks for the info on editing.

[mymistake]

 

 I think right now I tend to believe there will be nothing after death. Just nothing. I cannot imagine "nothing"... (Ha, here we go again... all those thoughts!).

 

 

Try to remember what it was like in the year 1492.  You didn't exist back then.  Remember

 

1865?  You didn't exist for 13 billion years, and it never bothered you at all.  

 

 

 

I believe this analogy originally comes from Mark Twain.

[Ellinas]

In terms of a basis for saying the religion is just plain wrong, I'm going to be lazy and cut and paste part of my post on LeikelaRae's "New & Confused" thread:

 

"... I found it helpful to take the time to formulate a basic line of reasoning as to why Christianity was bunk.  In my case it came down to:

1. The Christian god  is supposedly all powerful, all knowing and sovereign.
2. Hence he did not have to create the world,  but did so.
3. He did so knowing that the majority of the beings he created would end up screaming in hell for ever.
4. Having created all those beings doomed to endless suffering, he has the effrontery to expect to be called a god of love.
5. That cannot be the act of a perfect, holy deity.

I also found it useful to remember that the early chapters of Genesis conflict with known and verifiable evidence.  Together, all this takes away the foundation of Christianity.  Without a foundation the edifice falls.

 

Having memorized this line of reasoning, I repeated it every time any thought of Christianity possibly being correct arose.

 

In time, the mind is re-programmed by such repetition."

 

This does not mean you have to adopt this particular thought process - whatever makes sense to you.

 

Also, why is it arrogant to talk to yourself rather than the trinity?  If you believe the latter does not exist, at least in talking to yourself there's someone there listening.

 

I also find music useful as a stress buster - but secular CD's are an awfully lot more user friendly than a hymn book. And I'm probably showing my age in saying that - from your standpoint, probably the advice is "invest in an IPod (or something similar)".

[Llwellyn]

Hallo van een Nederlander in de Verenigde Staten.  When I read about your prayers, it makes me think of a verbal device to make uncertainly transformed into certain.  This throws up a huge red flag of Obsessive Compulsive tendencies.  Prayer seems to be your magical safeguard against the uncertain character of the world.  Have you talked to a psychologist about anxiety?  The best strategy for dealing with anxiety is to make peace with the fact that the world is a scene of uncertainty, and that there are no  verbal solutions.  In fact, there are no solutions at all.  Life is a gamble, it is uncertain, unstable, uncannily unstable.  Nothing can make ultimate uncertainty go away.  Prayer just compounds the problem which will not be solved.

[offtheromanroad]

Hallo Llwellyn, dear Nederlander!

 

I have never thought of it being OCD. Funny enough, I just googled "OCD prayer", and here we go: "Pray to overcome OCD"

What you write makes sense, very much so. Thanks for taking the time to write it out.

I might be dealing with some anxiety - but to be honest, I do not really know where normal "worrying" stops and "anxiety" starts. All that praying bothers me, but it doesn't influence/ruin my everyday life. But maybe it influences me more than I'd like to think - and I have even already thought about getting help for some of my worrying. I just don't know if it is bad enough to justify therapy in a medical sense.

Thanks again for writing.

 

offtheroad

[Llwellyn]

Anxiety and compulsions are only considered a "disorder" to the degree that you experience them as a disorder because they interfere with other life goals and you wish to call them a disorder, seek a diagnosis, and receive treatment.  There is not a human on earth who does not experience anxiety and compulsions, but for most people these would not properly be considered a "disorder" because they are moderate and relatively non-disruptive.  In your case, perhaps it is enough to post this thread, reflect on your prayers, and realize that they represent a mis-match between productive and unproductive ways of managing contingency.  This doesn't mean that you have to stop praying if it makes you happy!

[offtheromanroad]

Anxiety and compulsions are only considered a "disorder" to the degree that you experience them as a disorder because they interfere with other life goals and you wish to call them a disorder, seek a diagnosis, and receive treatment.  There is not a human on earth who does not experience anxiety and compulsions, but for most people these would not properly be considered a "disorder" because they are moderate and relatively non-disruptive.  In your case, perhaps it is enough to post this thread, reflect on your prayers, and realize that they represent a mis-match between productive and unproductive ways of managing contingency.  This doesn't mean that you have to stop praying if it makes you happy!

 

It doesn't make me happy, that's the problem. It gets on my nerves, annoys me, and makes me feel like I am not quite right up there. And in saying those prayers, it's like I still allow Big Brother to watch me. At least at times, that is. I already know those prayers represent a mis-match between productive and unproductive ways of coping (this wording really hits home, thank you!), but I just don't know how to get rid of it.

 

Interestingly enough, I think they don't keep me from really "managing" contingencies/every day life. I am pretty structured when it comes to solving problems/organising my life. It's like that whole prayer thing is happening as a parallel string of action in my mind/subconscious if that makes any sense (I'd totally understand if it doesn't make sense to you - I know it sounds really crazy).

[offtheromanroad]

In terms of a basis for saying the religion is just plain wrong, I'm going to be lazy and cut and paste part of my post on LeikelaRae's "New & Confused" thread:

 

"... I found it helpful to take the time to formulate a basic line of reasoning as to why Christianity was bunk.  In my case it came down to:

1. The Christian god  is supposedly all powerful, all knowing and sovereign.
2. Hence he did not have to create the world,  but did so.
3. He did so knowing that the majority of the beings he created would end up screaming in hell for ever.
4. Having created all those beings doomed to endless suffering, he has the effrontery to expect to be called a god of love.
5. That cannot be the act of a perfect, holy deity.

I also found it useful to remember that the early chapters of Genesis conflict with known and verifiable evidence.  Together, all this takes away the foundation of Christianity.  Without a foundation the edifice falls.

 

Having memorized this line of reasoning, I repeated it every time any thought of Christianity possibly being correct arose.

 

In time, the mind is re-programmed by such repetition."

 

This does not mean you have to adopt this particular thought process - whatever makes sense to you.

 

Also, why is it arrogant to talk to yourself rather than the trinity?  If you believe the latter does not exist, at least in talking to yourself there's someone there listening.

 

I also find music useful as a stress buster - but secular CD's are an awfully lot more user friendly than a hymn book. And I'm probably showing my age in saying that - from your standpoint, probably the advice is "invest in an IPod (or something similar)".

Thanks! Might start to think about a line of reasoning... no worries, I do have an mp3 player, that I also use!

[sparklingphoenix]

Hello, welcome to ex-c, offtheromanroad

 

I think you already got some really good advice and other people have said what I would say. I just want to be another person to tell you that you aren't the only one. I felt really weird when I realized I had no one to pray to. I was indoctrinated with xtianity from birth and was saved around 4 years of age (hard to know exactly but that's my best guess). I don't have that problem as much anymore, because it slowly faded away. However when I am really stressed about something I tend to think prayers. When I do this I just replace god with universe. I send out my worries to universe in my mind to relieve the stress. I don't know if it really helps, but I also don't know if the mental pattern of praying through stress will ever be erased. Thats my solution. 

 

I also deal with shame and generally feeling embarrassed about my visibility and existence. My family was very fundy and strict about the clothes I wore to the point that I can't break out of it now. Maybe I will try to, but I still don't like to wear short skirts and show my shoulders or anything. I was made to feel so bad and ashamed about that, even though I know I'm free to wear whatever I want, I just can't yet.  

 

I also feel bad about evangelizing to my friend, and I've apologized to her already. Also told a gay friend of mine that I was sorry I couldn't support him before, but I do now. 

 

I went through a phase right after deconverting where I was still worrying that god was sad with me and worrying about death, but I'm over that now. I think that will fade with time too.  You aren't crazy. You're very normal, and you had a crazy religion inflicted on you. Take care, and I hope you can start feeling better

[offtheromanroad]

Hello, welcome to ex-c, offtheromanroad

 

I think you already got some really good advice and other people have said what I would say. I just want to be another person to tell you that you aren't the only one. I felt really weird when I realized I had no one to pray to. I was indoctrinated with xtianity from birth and was saved around 4 years of age (hard to know exactly but that's my best guess). I don't have that problem as much anymore, because it slowly faded away. However when I am really stressed about something I tend to think prayers. When I do this I just replace god with universe. I send out my worries to universe in my mind to relieve the stress. I don't know if it really helps, but I also don't know if the mental pattern of praying through stress will ever be erased. Thats my solution. 

 

I also deal with shame and generally feeling embarrassed about my visibility and existence. My family was very fundy and strict about the clothes I wore to the point that I can't break out of it now. Maybe I will try to, but I still don't like to wear short skirts and show my shoulders or anything. I was made to feel so bad and ashamed about that, even though I know I'm free to wear whatever I want, I just can't yet.  

 

I also feel bad about evangelizing to my friend, and I've apologized to her already. Also told a gay friend of mine that I was sorry I couldn't support him before, but I do now. 

 

I went through a phase right after deconverting where I was still worrying that god was sad with me and worrying about death, but I'm over that now. I think that will fade with time too.  You aren't crazy. You're very normal, and you had a crazy religion inflicted on you. Take care, and I hope you can start feeling better

 

Hi Littlena,

The "funny" thing is that it wasn't inflicted on me, I "joined" the "club" voluntarily. My family was even worried about me having joined a cult when I left for bible school and extended my through the following summer.

It is sad to hear that you are still fighting feelings of shame when it comes to clothing. But I guess this will fade, too. Otherwise you sound like you are pretty much over the hump. How long did it take until the praying to the universe strategy worked for you? And how do you cope with your fam nowadays? Sorry if these questions are to private (please ignore them in case they bother you).

offtheroad

[sparklingphoenix]

Hi Littlena,

The "funny" thing is that it wasn't inflicted on me, I "joined" the "club" voluntarily. My family was even worried about me having joined a cult when I left for bible school and extended my through the following summer.

It is sad to hear that you are still fighting feelings of shame when it comes to clothing. But I guess this will fade, too. Otherwise you sound like you are pretty much over the hump. How long did it take until the praying to the universe strategy worked for you? And how do you cope with your fam nowadays? Sorry if these questions are to private (please ignore them in case they bother you).

offtheroad

My response is a lot longer than I expected! >.<

 

I suppose young minds are more vulnerable or susceptible to the influences the church has, so I couldn't blame you for joining. Sounds like you were also indoctrinated at an early age through bible camps. In my eyes, that doesn't make it much of a choice when a child is indoctrinated with religion. If it were a true choice, children would be allowed to grow up and learn all about science and have a developed mind before being exposed to Christianity. Yeah my family is very conservative and I also got a lot of bad messages from church about being a girl and covering up. Sigh. Not sure when I'll be able to break out of that, but it's a lesser thing compared to the other problems from religion I've managed to shake off

 

Hmm I guess I stopped praying after a month or so. That wore off more quickly than the many bible verses and songs that had been burned into my memory. Just talking to myself and to the universe kind of helped take the place of god. I think after about six months of being religion free I really felt comfortable with myself and not praying hardly at all. The only times I really ever have an instinct to pray now are when I'm extremely stressed about a situation and can't physically do anything about it myself. Then I just kind of think my thoughts and worries as if some cosmic force of the universe might hear it. I don't know, it's probably useless, but it's a form of release when I feel out of control.

 

Learning to cope with my family as a nonchristian took much longer, and I have only recently started to reconnect with my family members better, for about two years I couldn't talk to anyone in my family about anything. I spent the first year in the final, crucial stages of deconversion and was so freaked out that I couldn't talk to my family hardly at all. After I deconverted completely I was basically silent most of the time. When my family talked about religion I said nothing or just gave vague answers to avoid revealing myself. My family is also pretty dysfunctional on top of religion so there was added stress.

 

What finally changed things for me was when I accidentally came out to my mom. Our relationship has been recovering recently. I ended up telling her I deconverted because I was trying to explain why I didn't feel like I could talk to her before. She responded better than I thought. She said she still loved me the same way no matter what, and so did my grandparents, and they would all support me no matter what. She was obviously sad, but this made me realize that my family still loved me and it's helped me to let them love me better. I'm feeling more able to talk about my life and be a little more open with everyone, now that I've told my mom. Before coping was really hard and I stayed on this website all the time reading and asking for advice. This website has been a huge support and helped me cope a lot. I also was able to talk to my brother because he deconverted around the same time as me. We sometimes send each other memes about Christianity, and that gave me a sense that I wasn't completely alone in my family. There were times before when I felt like I would explode, having to keep myself so hidden from my family, but now that my mom knows, I feel like I can relax more and be my true self. Hope that helps!

[offtheromanroad]

Thanks! Will try to answer more in depth tonight, am off to work now. Just wanted to say that I really like your new nick!

 

offtheroad

[offtheromanroad]

Here I am, back from work.

 

After one month only? That is pretty fast compared to me. I wonder how long it will take me to not feel that urge anymore and to get rid of that whole guilt trip I described in this thread. It is really tiring. But what you say rings a bell: it is a way to destress. Only that it doesn't destress me anymore

 

Glad to hear things seem to go better with your mom. I imagine it is very tough to go through that. Good you and your brother are able to connect.

 

What you say about kids being indoctrinated sounds very true. I have never really thought through it that way.

 

Thanks a lot for sharing parts of your story.

 

It is so good to see I am not the only one who is struggling with this whole deconversion thing. I just realize now how little I have really talked about it to other people. It's like I have thought through stuff and wondered about so many things but have never been able to really release any of it, or very little (probably sounds more dramatic than it is in real life).

[offtheromanroad]

 

 

2.  I have started to fight this by praying the Lord's prayer as a compromise and some sort of "mantra" since I really do not want to pronounce "personal" prayers. Maybe this is counterproductive... I totally know it sounds crazy (I can hear you laughing, and that's okay!).

 

Not laughing.  Nothing wrong with using a mantra if you want to experiment with meditation - but something a tad shorter might be of more use.  If you are simply trying to re-condition your brain, I would suggest the "talking to yourself" approach above might be more beneficial.

 

 

Hi everybody, just wanted to let you know that I really appreciate that you all took the time to answer on this thread. It means a lot to me since it somehow gives me the feeling that I am not the only one who's fighting some Xianity related stuff. I didn't really think people would understand the "praying thing".

 

Ellinas, thanks for your answer quoted above. I am really not into medition, but the idea to go find a short phrase to use when I feel the "urge" to pray somewhat helps. I read a thread written by "Insightful" the other day who posted some sort of anti-creed that in part really reasonated with me, especially the following sentence: "I believe that heaven is an empty promise and hell is an idle threat [...]" I might just go with this one until I've found my own short "mantra", I guess. It somehow helps to not pray and feel like I am talking to the ceiling yet still watched  by big brother (still feels weird to admit this).

 

I just wonder if that urge will really ever vanish in full.

[Deidre]

Read something recently, and I liked it...''the journey finds us, we don't find it.'' Something like that. lol

I like your story, we are here for you.

 

Welcome!