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Goodbye Jesus

Freaky, Freaky Friday - April 10Th


2PhiloVoid

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This week, as I sat at work, for some inexplicable reason, I was reminded of something that happened on Friday, April 10th some twenty-three years ago...and it was disquieting to my mind. So, I thought I’d better share it here.

 

Freaky Incident #1:  Back in 1992, I shared an apartment with my best friend. This wasn’t just a friend but the friend whom I had known by that time for about 10 years and was previously involved with my having become a Christian. Unfortunately, 1992 was also the year both of us hit a moral snag in our Christian faith, and we found that we both were more than willing to place our cherished beliefs on the moral backburner. So, we did. And we took it upon ourselves to do the things that two not quite so wild, but yet still ‘fancy-free,’ young adult guys do, like unknowingly buying the same March issue of Playboy, checking out the local strip club, and attending a cool evening at a Minor-League baseball game. On one particular evening, my friend decided we should watch a video of a comedian by the name of Sam Kinison. So, we did.

 

Now, as many people may already know, Sam Kinison was an Ex-Christian; not only that but an Ex-Pentecostal preacher who had gained some notoriety by performing sacrilegious shouting of Promethean proportions during his ‘comedy’ routines. As we watched the video, an amazing thing happened-- as each of Kinison’s jokes funneled through the television screen, my best friend began laughing hysterically, kicking and tossing his body uncontrollably.  I wasn’t expecting my friend to have such a reaction. Granted, at the time I had some moral issues of my own, but I became unnerved while my friend contorted and flailed with laughter, in unison to each of Kinison’s well-timed blasphemes. I felt like a traitor to my faith and to myself, and I remember making a comment about the inappropriateness of the video to my friend. I also remember my friend rebuffing me for it; I didn’t say much after that. I guess Kinison hit a raw nerve in my friend. He hit one of my nerves as well.

 

Freaky Incident #2:  A few weeks went by; Kinison’s verbal assaults from the video still occasionally gave me something to ponder and regret.  One day during this time, I happened to be at a local record store, looking for a new CD. As I flipped through the many choices of music artists, something caught my eye—Lo and Behold! It was Sam Kinison, casually walking into the store to buy some music and say hello to the clerk. I saw Sam take a couple of photographs with some obvious fans, signing a couple of autographs. I could only watch and stare. He was a short guy, wearing a hat and sun-glasses, jeans, and a cut-out muscle shirt, but he had what looked like a Vegas tan, all of which was topped with a celebrity smirk. After watching him for a couple of minutes, I felt a sense of irritation, nay, I felt compelled to leave the store. So, I did. And while walking away, an unerring, lingering sense of mystification settled in my mind, and at that moment the thought struck me: Sam was but human after all.

 

Freaky Incident #3: A few weeks again went by. This time, I came home to my apartment on a Saturday afternoon, after doing who knows what. I was by myself that day. Throwing my keys down, I flicked on the television, grabbed a drink, and settled onto the couch for a few minutes. As I watched the News, I was suddenly taken aback, and I remember a sense of dread washing over me as I heard the reporter give the news headline: Sam Kinison had been killed the previous day by a drunk driver, Friday, April 10, 1992.

 

I didn’t know about Sam’s life back then as I do know. I felt—feel-- bad for him. In fact, each time I reflect upon that fateful occasion, a slightly eerie feeling comes over me that Sam’s career and life had been intercepted somehow as he literally came face to face with a Higher Power.  I would like to think that Sam, in his last moments, perhaps saw Jesus saying to him, “I knew this surprise intervention would get your attention, and if you’re ready to be forgiven, then you can take my hand.” I can only hope that was the case. Ever since then, Sam’s story reminds me to stop, reflect on my life, and remember that God could surprise me too. (Although, I’m not really asking for that!) closedeyes.gif

 

http://www.biography.com/people/sam-kinison-424006

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

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That story worries me because it looks like you have no clue what "moral" even means.

 

There is nothing immoral about an adult buying a magazine made by consenting adults.  

 

There is nothing immoral about an adult going to a club for consenting adults.

 

Perhaps you came to ex-C to learn about morality?

 

 

 


In fact, each time I reflect upon that fateful occasion, a slightly eerie feeling comes over me that Sam’s career and life had been intercepted somehow as he literally came face to face with a Higher Power.  I would like to think that Sam, in his last moments, perhaps saw Jesus saying to him, “I knew this surprise intervention would get your attention, and if you’re ready to be forgiven, then you can take my hand.”

 

That didn't happen.  You have a wild imagination.  What you call Jesus doesn't

 

exist outside of your brain.  Nobody else can experience it because they don't

 

share your brain.  Yeah I know there are a lot of other Christians who have wild

 

imaginations too.  But their Jesus is a different one because you share no part

 

of their brain.  Their Jesus is only in their head.

 

 

 

It completely sucks that another life was cut short by drunk driving but to add

 

all sorts of religious crap to this only distracts from the important lesson here.

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Is this......*gasp* the beginning of an altar call? TURN TO JESUS AND BE SAVED! HALLELUJAH! ELSE YE WILL TOTES BE BUMMED BY SATAN FOR ETERNITY!

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Hi Philo,

 

Thanks for sharing this. I don't want to make light of what was evidently a powerful experience in your life, but I'm not really sure what you're after here. Let's see if I have this right.

 

1. When you were younger you acted like most other young males. Except that your religion led you to think that somehow your actions in watching Sam was, what, insulting to god? What kind of infinite being can be insulted by a few blasphemous shouts from his own creation?

 

2. You saw someone with moderate fame in person, and were mystified by the revelation that he was actually human?

 

3. When you heard the news of Sam's death you hoped that he was given one last chance by the Tender Lord Jesus to make things right. But you've said before you don't hold to the notion of an eternal hell, so why would this be so upsetting to you? Sam might have died unrepentant, but without eternal punishment, what difference does it make?

 

I'm just trying to make some sense of things here, as to why these episodes had such an impact on you.

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That story worries me because it looks like you have no clue what "moral" even means.

 

There is nothing immoral about an adult buying a magazine made by consenting adults.  

 

There is nothing immoral about an adult going to a club for consenting adults.

 

Perhaps you came to ex-C to learn about morality?

 

 

 

In fact, each time I reflect upon that fateful occasion, a slightly eerie feeling comes over me that Sam’s career and life had been intercepted somehow as he literally came face to face with a Higher Power.  I would like to think that Sam, in his last moments, perhaps saw Jesus saying to him, “I knew this surprise intervention would get your attention, and if you’re ready to be forgiven, then you can take my hand.”

 

That didn't happen.  You have a wild imagination.  What you call Jesus doesn't

 

exist outside of your brain.  Nobody else can experience it because they don't

 

share your brain.  Yeah I know there are a lot of other Christians who have wild

 

imaginations too.  But their Jesus is a different one because you share no part

 

of their brain.  Their Jesus is only in their head.

 

 

 

It completely sucks that another life was cut short by drunk driving but to add

 

all sorts of religious crap to this only distracts from the important lesson here.

 

Hi MM,

 

I know it may be hard to imagine, but I do have some 'clues' as to what constitutes morality. I suppose you could guess why. (It isn't simply because I'm a Christian.)

 

As to my 'wild imagination,' you might notice that I used the word "perhaps" in my previous post. As you know, that word signifies that my illocution was only to present a possibility, not a bona-fide actuality. I know you know the difference, MM.

 

I think offering the hope that Sam got a split second opportunity to clarify his beliefs to Jesus sounds a whole lot better than saying, "Yep, that Sam got what he deserved, and now he's out like a light, for good." I'd rather hope for the former possibility. It should be obvious why I would hope for this. He was a former brother in Christ and that means something to me.

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

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Is this......*gasp* the beginning of an altar call? TURN TO JESUS AND BE SAVED! HALLELUJAH! ELSE YE WILL TOTES BE BUMMED BY SATAN FOR ETERNITY!

 

You're funny, Scottsman. No, there will be no altar calls on my patrol. woohoo.gif

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So, you and your mother didn't change bodies?

 

Also, you don't find it just a bit off-putting that you honestly believe that God just killed someone? Or, rather, ​God intervened so that someone would die?

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I know it may be hard to imagine, but I do have some 'clues' as to what constitutes morality. 

 

But you could learn so much more, if you were willing.

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Moral of the story: Everybody dies from something, sometimes it's a drunk driver. 

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Hi Philo,

 

Thanks for sharing this. I don't want to make light of what was evidently a powerful experience in your life, but I'm not really sure what you're after here. Let's see if I have this right.

 

1. When you were younger you acted like most other young males. Except that your religion led you to think that somehow your actions in watching Sam was, what, insulting to god? What kind of infinite being can be insulted by a few blasphemous shouts from his own creation?

 

2. You saw someone with moderate fame in person, and were mystified by the revelation that he was actually human?

 

3. When you heard the news of Sam's death you hoped that he was given one last chance by the Tender Lord Jesus to make things right. But you've said before you don't hold to the notion of an eternal hell, so why would this be so upsetting to you? Sam might have died unrepentant, but without eternal punishment, what difference does it make?

 

I'm just trying to make some sense of things here, as to why these episodes had such an impact on you.

 

Hey Jeff,

 

I know you weren’t making light of what I shared, and I do value the fact that you commenced your response with a sense of inquisitiveness, which is only natural when encountering someone who you know holds a divergent ideology. However, I am an adult, so I can handle all of the scrutiny people throw at me. I also welcome it since it helps me remain realistic.

 

1. In my earlier experience of watching Sam Kinison, I didn’t have the insights about people that I have now. I was a simpler fellow at that time, more sensitive to many things. Today, I would just analyze and dispense with similar encounters in a matter of minutes or hours.

 

2. Back in ‘92, I was depressed and trying to figure out life and faith— not very successfully, mind you—and, I was indeed mystified by people like Sam. I couldn’t figure them out, and it kind of unsettled me. Now, these memories serve as an occasion for clarity and further pondering.

 

3. Sure, I do wish better things for people who may have Sam’s non-religious disposition. And yes, I am an Annihilationist, so I don’t believe in a literal, eternal Hell. However, Sam was a human being (like everyone else), and I think it would be nice if he still ‘made it’ at the end. I think it’s only fitting for me to approach his situation in this way.

 

If we don’t assume what could only pass as a 1st grade vision of Heaven, we might also surmise that the Eternal Life proffered in the Bible connotes a much more satisfying state of being than what our limited imaginations can conceive. In turn, such a conception of Heaven, if real, would be better than an infinite state of non-existence; non-existence in a Biblical sense is a deprivation of life, and, having said that I lived a life, is something I consider to be a punishment. (Yes, I said “If Real” since I can’t smack anyone in the face with hard evidence, which I know everyone is clamoring for.)

 

Anyway, I hope the above helps you as you build a more sensible dossier of my personal quirks.

 

Always good talking to you, Jeff.

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

 

P.S. Don't forget to pay your taxes... wink.png

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Interesting story.  Homo sapiens sapiens have a well developed ability to identify patterns in things, events and sequential occurrences.  Whether the recognized pattern has any meaning requires further inquiry, but the initial identification has been useful to survival in the past, e.g., fight or flight response.

 

Your following comments seem to indicate that you rely, at least in part, on the hope, aspiration and/or wishful thinking  generated from religious faith:

 

 

 

"I would like to think that Sam, in his last moments, perhaps saw Jesus saying to him, “I knew this surprise intervention would get your attention, and if you’re ready to be forgiven, then you can take my hand.” I can only hope that was the case. Ever since then, Sam’s story reminds me to stop, reflect on my life, and remember that God could surprise me too. (Although, I’m not really asking for that!)"

 

Again, I conclude that your frontal cortex is in a battle with your limbic system.  Perhaps you should consider convening peace talks.

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I know it may be hard to imagine, but I do have some 'clues' as to what constitutes morality. 

 

But you could learn so much more, if you were willing.

 

 

Perhaps.  (But, why is it that the way in which you say "willing" seems so ....mysterious?)

 

I'm guessing I'll probably have to stick to my earlier, Luke Skywalker "smiley."  ohmy.png

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So, you and your mother didn't change bodies?

 

Also, you don't find it just a bit off-putting that you honestly believe that God just killed someone? Or, rather, ​God intervened so that someone would die?

 

Not really. In the Bible, God has been known to use one trouble-maker to "take out" another trouble-maker. It doesn't sound very nice, I know, but that's because "nice" probably isn't a fitting term to describe God. He also wasn't invited to weigh in at the various Human Rights Conventions, and He probably didn't receive our memo.

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

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Interesting story.  Homo sapiens sapiens have a well developed ability to identify patterns in things, events and sequential occurrences.  Whether the recognized pattern has any meaning requires further inquiry, but the initial identification has been useful to survival in the past, e.g., fight or flight response.

 

Your following comments seem to indicate that you rely, at least in part, on the hope, aspiration and/or wishful thinking  generated from religious faith:

 

 

 

"I would like to think that Sam, in his last moments, perhaps saw Jesus saying to him, “I knew this surprise intervention would get your attention, and if you’re ready to be forgiven, then you can take my hand.” I can only hope that was the case. Ever since then, Sam’s story reminds me to stop, reflect on my life, and remember that God could surprise me too. (Although, I’m not really asking for that!)"

 

Again, I conclude that your frontal cortex is in a battle with your limbic system.  Perhaps you should consider convening peace talks.

 

Well, as you can tell by my avatar, those peace talks didn't go very well.  GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif 

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Moral of the story: Everybody dies from something, sometimes it's a drunk driver. 

 

...and sometimes it's being on the Promethean highway at the wrong time. tongue.png

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Interesting story.  Homo sapiens sapiens have a well developed ability to identify patterns in things, events and sequential occurrences.  Whether the recognized pattern has any meaning requires further inquiry, but the initial identification has been useful to survival in the past, e.g., fight or flight response.

 

Your following comments seem to indicate that you rely, at least in part, on the hope, aspiration and/or wishful thinking  generated from religious faith:

 

 

 

"I would like to think that Sam, in his last moments, perhaps saw Jesus saying to him, “I knew this surprise intervention would get your attention, and if you’re ready to be forgiven, then you can take my hand.” I can only hope that was the case. Ever since then, Sam’s story reminds me to stop, reflect on my life, and remember that God could surprise me too. (Although, I’m not really asking for that!)"

 

Again, I conclude that your frontal cortex is in a battle with your limbic system.  Perhaps you should consider convening peace talks.

 

Well, as you can tell by my avatar, those peace talks didn't go very well.  GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

 

I doubt you ever had them.  Your choice of avatar is of little relevance to whether you have done so.

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I know it may be hard to imagine, but I do have some 'clues' as to what constitutes morality. 

 

But you could learn so much more, if you were willing.

 

 

Perhaps.  (But, why is it that the way in which you say "willing" seems so ....mysterious?)

 

 

 

Because you insist on filtering your view of the world through the lens of your religion.  

 

That choice has been expensive for you.  I know because I use to be in your shoes.

 

Don't worry, nobody is going to force you to do anything you don't want to do.

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Hospitals full of children with cancer, and Jesus was looking out for Sam Kinison... Go figure...

 

I'm sure even Sam Kinison would rather have Jesus take care of the kids. I know 'I' would.

 

But, hey, I'm not god so, wtf do I know?

 

I'm so narrow minded...

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Hospitals full of children with cancer, and Jesus was looking out for Sam Kinison... Go figure...

 

I'm sure even Sam Kinison would rather have Jesus take care of the kids. I know 'I' would.

 

But, hey, I'm not god so, wtf do I know?

 

I'm so narrow minded...

 

 

I'm so narrow minded that, if I had the power to stop it, then I couldn't stand by and watch all the children and women who get raped every day.

 

 

(sarcasm)

 

But my ways are not God's ways.  And who am I, as a mere mortal, to question God decision to allow all these rapes to take place?  Obviously

 

any appearance of a contradiction must be my fault.

 

(/sarcasm)

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MORBID.  Is this the approach of Christianity -- to focus on the so-called "moral" of the story and losing sight of the good in the world?  What about the value of Sam Kinison's life and work?  You can't see it?  What's wrong with you?  Obviously lots of people found him relevant and applicable.  Why can't you?  People called him a genius.  I know what you see, I know what your God sees, and that's not the vision I want to have.

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Hey Jeff,

 

I know you weren’t making light of what I shared, and I do value the fact that you commenced your response with a sense of inquisitiveness, which is only natural when encountering someone who you know holds a divergent ideology. However, I am an adult, so I can handle all of the scrutiny people throw at me. I also welcome it since it helps me remain realistic.

 

1. In my earlier experience of watching Sam Kinison, I didn’t have the insights about people that I have now. I was a simpler fellow at that time, more sensitive to many things. Today, I would just analyze and dispense with similar encounters in a matter of minutes or hours.

 

2. Back in ‘92, I was depressed and trying to figure out life and faith— not very successfully, mind you—and, I was indeed mystified by people like Sam. I couldn’t figure them out, and it kind of unsettled me. Now, these memories serve as an occasion for clarity and further pondering.

 

3. Sure, I do wish better things for people who may have Sam’s non-religious disposition. And yes, I am an Annihilationist, so I don’t believe in a literal, eternal Hell. However, Sam was a human being (like everyone else), and I think it would be nice if he still ‘made it’ at the end. I think it’s only fitting for me to approach his situation in this way.

 

If we don’t assume what could only pass as a 1st grade vision of Heaven, we might also surmise that the Eternal Life proffered in the Bible connotes a much more satisfying state of being than what our limited imaginations can conceive. In turn, such a conception of Heaven, if real, would be better than an infinite state of non-existence; non-existence in a Biblical sense is a deprivation of life, and, having said that I lived a life, is something I consider to be a punishment. (Yes, I said “If Real” since I can’t smack anyone in the face with hard evidence, which I know everyone is clamoring for.)

 

Anyway, I hope the above helps you as you build a more sensible dossier of my personal quirks.

 

Always good talking to you, Jeff.

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

 

P.S. Don't forget to pay your taxes... wink.png

 

 

Thanks for the clarifications, Philo. Just a few comments.

 

I remember the days I also had this kind of religious hyper-sensitivity to events in my life. Always trying to read meaning into every thing, as if every event or experience was meant to be some communication from god directly to me. I no longer believe that, and it's amazing how silent god has become. Almost as if it was all in my head. I'm not saying you didn't experience something powerful and real--it's just that there's no reason to believe there was something supernatural involved. As you say, there's no real evidence, and that kind of makes it a hard sell.

 

Also, I don't agree that a blissful eternity in heaven is categorically better or "more satisfying" than non-existence. I used to not exist, once upon a time. As I recall, it didn't bother me in the least.

 

You might also consider that a religion without hell (or fear of some kind or another) has no bite. There's no way for religion to compel if there's no fear--fear of hell or painful temporal punishment, fear of being out of harmony with some universal spirit, fear of offending the gods. Every religion (even apparently benign ones) has this fear component to keep its adherents in line. What does that tell us?

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Maybe you actually do believe this little story has some greater significance; a lot of christians are superstitious that way. But, to me, it smells like you came here just to post a warning to us ex-christians in an attempt to draw us back into the flock. Quite frankly, it stinks.

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If God took out Kinison with a drunk driver, I have to wonder what he did to your strippers.

 

You nasty boy!

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(snip)

 

I didn’t know about Sam’s life back then as I do know. I felt—feel-- bad for him. In fact, each time I reflect upon that fateful occasion, a slightly eerie feeling comes over me that Sam’s career and life had been intercepted somehow as he literally came face to face with a Higher Power.  I would like to think that Sam, in his last moments, perhaps saw Jesus saying to him, “I knew this surprise intervention would get your attention, and if you’re ready to be forgiven, then you can take my hand.” I can only hope that was the case. Ever since then, Sam’s story reminds me to stop, reflect on my life, and remember that God could surprise me too. (Although, I’m not really asking for that!) closedeyes.gif

 

http://www.biography.com/people/sam-kinison-424006

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

 

Remember this, 2P?

 

**If tomorrow you offer up a convincing argument for Christianity, how can this be squared with the purpose of this site? 

**Rightly or wrongly I perceive that such an argument can only be opposed to the very purpose of this site.

 

That’s definitely a legitimate concern, I know, and out of respect for you guys, I wouldn’t want to challenge the purpose(s) of your website, or rock the boat. So, if the Lion’s Den is problematic, in what other sub-sections may a Christian post so as to avoid becoming entangled in a kind of Kobayashi Maru? Or is this problematic in your estimation all the way around?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Your post about Kinison (especially the last paragraph) is openly opposed to the purpose of this forum, 2P.

 

You are challenging the purpose of Ex-Christian.net - which is to bring Christians OUT of communion with Jesus.

 

You are proselytizing IN the name of Jesus.

 

You ARE rocking the boat!

.

.

.

Not exactly a faithful and honest man of your word, are you?

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(snip)

 

I didn’t know about Sam’s life back then as I do know. I felt—feel-- bad for him. In fact, each time I reflect upon that fateful occasion, a slightly eerie feeling comes over me that Sam’s career and life had been intercepted somehow as he literally came face to face with a Higher Power.  I would like to think that Sam, in his last moments, perhaps saw Jesus saying to him, “I knew this surprise intervention would get your attention, and if you’re ready to be forgiven, then you can take my hand.” I can only hope that was the case. Ever since then, Sam’s story reminds me to stop, reflect on my life, and remember that God could surprise me too. (Although, I’m not really asking for that!) closedeyes.gif

 

http://www.biography.com/people/sam-kinison-424006

 

Peace

2PhiloVoid

 

Remember this, 2P?

 

**If tomorrow you offer up a convincing argument for Christianity, how can this be squared with the purpose of this site? 

**Rightly or wrongly I perceive that such an argument can only be opposed to the very purpose of this site.

 

That’s definitely a legitimate concern, I know, and out of respect for you guys, I wouldn’t want to challenge the purpose(s) of your website, or rock the boat. So, if the Lion’s Den is problematic, in what other sub-sections may a Christian post so as to avoid becoming entangled in a kind of Kobayashi Maru? Or is this problematic in your estimation all the way around?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Your post about Kinison (especially the last paragraph) is openly opposed to the purpose of this forum, 2P.

 

You are challenging the purpose of Ex-Christian.net - which is to bring Christians OUT of communion with Jesus.

 

You are proselytizing IN the name of Jesus.

 

You ARE rocking the boat!

.

.

.

Not exactly a faithful and honest man of your word, are you?

 

Well, 2P did mention in his post that he was exposing some of his "personal quirks".  As such, perhaps this is an honest attempt by 2P to pierce through the fog of his self-inflicted grandiosity to seriously question his theism.

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