The Pagan Origins Of Jesus Christ And Christianity

[Guest Furball]

The Pagan Origins of Jesus Christ and Christianity

[duderonomy]

Thanks for the link, CC!

[EyesOpened]

Thank you CC!

 

That was very informative and I knew very little about how much Xtianity borrowed from other beliefs. I was aware they did that some but not to that extent.

 

Thank you again.

[pck]

Is there a more reliable source for that Horus stuff? It seems contrived to me, the parallels to Jesus are just too obvious.

[EyesOpened]

Is there a more reliable source for that Horus stuff? It seems contrived to me, the parallels to Jesus are just too obvious.

http://www.jonsorensen.net/2012/10/25/horus-manure-debunking-the-jesushorus-connection/

 

Also, just read about Horus and connect the dots yourself. You will find much more that way.

[Guest Furball]

 

Is there a more reliable source for that Horus stuff? It seems contrived to me, the parallels to Jesus are just too obvious.

http://www.jonsorensen.net/2012/10/25/horus-manure-debunking-the-jesushorus-connection/

 

Also, just read about Horus and connect the dots yourself. You will find much more that way.

 

Thanks for backing me up.

[Guest Furball]

Is there a more reliable source for that Horus stuff? It seems contrived to me, the parallels to Jesus are just too obvious.

What more reliability do you need? That article came with more than enough sufficient evidence for it's claims. I would not have posted it if it did not.

 

Perhaps a christian website would be more to your liking? 

 

In the mean time, please refute that entire article and the evidence you say it lacks, i am curious, because you are a christian, how you would counter all the evidence that article brings to the forefront. 

 

Thank you,

 -Cat

[pck]

 

Is there a more reliable source for that Horus stuff? It seems contrived to me, the parallels to Jesus are just too obvious.

What more reliability do you need? That article came with more than enough sufficient evidence for it's claims. I would not have posted it if it did not.

 

Perhaps a christian website would be more to your liking? 

 

In the mean time, please refute that entire article and the evidence you say it lacks, i am curious, because you are a christian, how you would counter all the evidence that article brings to the forefront. 

 

Thank you,

 -Cat

 

 

I am solely talking about the list of "facts" of Horus' life in that article (I haven't even read the rest of it so far). Concerning that list, I don't see any evidence for most of the claims, like "came to fulfill the law" (which law?) or "raised El-Azarus from the dead", not to mention the birth on December 25th (I don't know how the church came up with that date for Christmas, to the best of my knowledge, it is not mentioned in the bible).

I'm not saying that the story of Jesus could not have been influencend by pagan myths, but if the similarities where that obvious, I'd expect to find much more sources to support that claim. The original source for these claims seems to be Acharya S' book "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold".

See also:

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/#horus

[EyesOpened]

 

 

Is there a more reliable source for that Horus stuff? It seems contrived to me, the parallels to Jesus are just too obvious.

 

http://www.jonsorensen.net/2012/10/25/horus-manure-debunking-the-jesushorus-connection/

Also, just read about Horus and connect the dots yourself. You will find much more that way.

Thanks for backing me up.

No problem.

 

Here is another one.

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/04/seeking-hard-evidence-for-the-similarity-of-the-horus-and-jesus-myths/

 

Pay close attention to the first response and the responder. You end up in this paradox.

 

Thats what i was trying to get at in my first link.

You will find articles for it and against it. I found tons just by reading the history about the two. It is vital you do your own research and form your own speculation and not have someone hand it over too you on a platter. You might risk misinformation this way.

 

From what i have found i think there is too much in common with the two to be coincidence. So, until i find anymore data i believe he was a copy.

[EyesOpened]

Also do your research with an open mind and look at their histories. If you go in looking for "conspiracies about Horus & Jesus" you are guiding your searches for websites that will try to prove it wrong.

[pck]

 

You will find articles for it and against it. I found tons just by reading the history about the two. It is vital you do your own research and form your own speculation and not have someone hand it over too you on a platter. You might risk misinformation this way.

 

 

So far, I didn't find any that confirms the list of parallels between Horus and Jesus. The links you posted seem to support my suspicions that the claims in this list are not part of the original Horus myths - at least most of them.

Again, I'm not saying that such myths might not have influenced the story of Jesus' life. I'm only doubting the parallels mentioned in the list in CeilingCat's link.

[EyesOpened]

Because you need to read each of them separate and not connect them. Do a fact check about their histories. Take notes, and compare the two on your own.

[EyesOpened]

http://m.touregypt.net/featurestories/horus.htm

 

There are more but i don't want to guide your search.

 

You need to get to know Horus from the history standpoint.

 

Then look at the history of the bible and Jesus.

 

You can find it that way, no easy feat for sure but it is worth the time.

[pck]

Because you need to read each of them separate and not connect them. Do a fact check about their histories. Take notes, and compare the two on your own.

 

I don't see what to compare. There's a list of "Horus facts" that's not backed by any reliable source, there's no other support for that claims apart from other sites citing the very same list, and there are some websites that refute these claims. I think the burden of proof here is clearly on those claiming that the Horus stories are true, not on the ones doubting it.

 

A reliable source would be an egyptologist who points to sources of the Horus stories, assuring that they date back to the ancient Egypt or something like that.

[pck]

http://m.touregypt.net/featurestories/horus.htm

 

There are more but i don't want to guide your search.

 

You need to get to know Horus from the history standpoint.

 

Then look at the history of the bible and Jesus.

 

You can find it that way, no easy feat for sure but it is worth the time.

 

Thank you for the link. I only had a quick look at it, so far, I didn't find that many parallels to Jesus (apart from the things mentioned in the last paragraph).

 

I don't deny that there might be parallels between Horus and Jesus, it's really just about that list with all these claims that resemble the life of Jesus so closely - too closely in my opinion.

[EyesOpened]

 

http://m.touregypt.net/featurestories/horus.htm

There are more but i don't want to guide your search.

You need to get to know Horus from the history standpoint.

Then look at the history of the bible and Jesus.

You can find it that way, no easy feat for sure but it is worth the time.

 

 

Thank you for the link. I only had a quick look at it, so far, I didn't find that many parallels to Jesus (apart from the things mentioned in the last paragraph).

 

I don't deny that there might be parallels between Horus and Jesus, it's really just about that list with all these claims that resemble the life of Jesus so closely - too closely in my opinion.

No problem.

 

I agree with CC that there are simialrities that not only Jesus was a copy but the bible in general.

 

Bits and fragments from different religions pieced together in a nice humble package. There were so many writings held from the bible, only a select few made it in. See the vatican has some of these writings and will not allow viewing of them. Strange isn't it?

 

Back to Horus and Jesus, look for non bias history. It isn't easy to find but it is there. I looked this up some years ago and don't have links available. Sorry

[Blood]

Egyptian religion is not "paganism." The latter is a word invented by some senile male virgins sitting around a monastery trying to invent new ways to con people into joining their bizarre cult, aka "Christianity." 

 

There is no religion called "paganism." 

 

But yes, Christianity was influenced by everything that came before, Egyptian, Jewish, Greek, Roman religions ... 

[themonkeyman]

Be aware pck that not every document ever is accessible by google goto a Cambridge uni library and ul find loads of stuff that's probably never had so much as a reference on the Internet.

 

Also Egyptian histories would be written in hieroglyphs and potentially linear A. Any translations would probably be to Latin or German.

 

Hence if you want more about Horus u need to learn more than english

[Geezer]

Dr. Robert M. Price, a noted bible scholar, has a number of good books that would likely shed additional light on this subject. His books, and other similar scholars, can be found on Amazon.

 

Either the gospel story is real which requires miracles, deities, angels, demons and similar stuff that appears to be scientifically impossible or its fiction. God was apparently very chatty in ancient times but not so much since then. Miracles were apparently common in ancient times but not so much now.

 

Then there is the element of common sense, that apparently isn't so common these days, that also must be factored into this story. If the story is true then where is the evidence? The similarities between the gospel and numerous similar pagan stories is well documented.

 

Since there is no real evidence that the gospel story is true, Christianity says it requires "faith". In other words belief without evidence and faith apparently also requires significant indoctrination too.

[pck]

Be aware pck that not every document ever is accessible by google goto a Cambridge uni library and ul find loads of stuff that's probably never had so much as a reference on the Internet.

 

Also Egyptian histories would be written in hieroglyphs and potentially linear A. Any translations would probably be to Latin or German.

 

Hence if you want more about Horus u need to learn more than english

 

Well, whoever wrote that list with parallels between Jesus and Horus either fabricated these parallels or had a (reliable?) source for them. In the latter case, he or she could have mentioned the source(s), which he/she did not.

So it's not up to me (or anyone else doubting that list) to go and look for sources that support it, but for those defending its reliability.

 

Perhaps I'm misunderstood: I don't deny that the gospels might have been influenced by other beliefs, legends or whatever. I didn't mean to start a discussion on whether or not the gospels are reliable or whether Jesus existed. I am only discussing this list here:

• Horus became born of the virgin Isis-Meri (Mary) on December 25th in a cave/manger with his birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
• His earthly father was named "Seb" ("Joseph").
• He was of royal descent.
• At age 12, he was a child teacher in the Temple, and at 30, he was baptized, having disappeared for 18 years.
• Horus was baptized in the river Eridanus or Iarutana (Jordan) by "Anup the Baptizer" ("John the Baptist"), who was decapitated.
• He had 12 disciples, two of whom were his "witnesses" and were named "Anup" and "Aan" (the two "Johns").
• He performed miracles, exorcised demons and raised El-Azarus ("El-Osiris"), from the dead.
• Horus walked on water.
• His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."
• He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
• Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
• He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
• He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God’s Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
• He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
• He came to fulfill the Law.
• Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."
• Horus's principal enemy was "Set" (biblical Seth) or "Sata" (Satan) Set represents the Serpent of the Night. Horus is the Golden Sun (Son) it becomes the struggle between day and night for supremacy.
• Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."

Do you really think that all of these items are true, i.e. part of some Horus legend(s) that predate Jesus?

[EyesOpened]

Back when i was in college and i was studing various myths of various cultures what i found my biggest hurdle with Horus was, "Which Horus are these facts about". There were tons, and I mean Tons of Horus imposters and stories about all these different imposters were mixed in with the original myth.

 

It has been nearly 20 years since i attend college so it seems like a lifetime ago i read about this.

 

Both Horus and Jesus have so many conflicting stories it makes your head spin.

 

Like themonkeyman said, if you don't learn any other languages you come to a stand still and have to trust other sources.

 

Let me crack my brain open again and see if i can't find more for you over the next couple of days.

[pck]

 

Like themonkeyman said, if you don't learn any other languages you come to a stand still and have to trust other sources.

 

 

I agree, but that's true for most other subjects. One can't be an expert in any area. But nonetheless, not all sources are equally credible. A book written by, say, a scientist of a renowned university is more credible than a website by some unknown author, especially as I'd expect the former to back his claims and theories with the appropriate sources or other evidence so that the reader can dig deeper if he or she likes to do so.

(I'm not saying that only scientists of renowned universities are credible )

 

And no matter how many Horus stories there are, it's simply not trustworthy if someone posts a list of alleged things Horus said or did without giving any source for it, even if he/she did find all of these events in various authentic Horus stories (which I highly doubt).

 

It would surely be interesting to read more on that matter, but please don't feel obligated to search more material for me - I guess you have better ways to spend your time

 

Just out of curiosity: Do you consider that list I copied in my previous post to be reliable/true?

[qadeshet]

Kenneth Humphreys may be more reliable.

 

Religious fusion in Ancient Egypt

[EyesOpened]

 

Like themonkeyman said, if you don't learn any other languages you come to a stand still and have to trust other sources.

 

 

I agree, but that's true for most other subjects. One can't be an expert in any area. But nonetheless, not all sources are equally credible. A book written by, say, a scientist of a renowned university is more credible than a website by some unknown author, especially as I'd expect the former to back his claims and theories with the appropriate sources or other evidence so that the reader can dig deeper if he or she likes to do so.

(I'm not saying that only scientists of renowned universities are credible )

 

And no matter how many Horus stories there are, it's simply not trustworthy if someone posts a list of alleged things Horus said or did without giving any source for it, even if he/she did find all of these events in various authentic Horus stories (which I highly doubt).

 

It would surely be interesting to read more on that matter, but please don't feel obligated to search more material for me - I guess you have better ways to spend your time

 

Just out of curiosity: Do you consider that list I copied in my previous post to be reliable/true?

Some of that list looks familiar, other parts i would have to research again. That is the thing about TIME. When i reasearched this 20+ years ago i dont remember some of your list but there have probably been tons of new findings between now and then.

 

This is where the problem is with discussing Horus:

 

"There were at least fifteen other Horuses in the Egyptian pantheon,[60] so in the story of Isis and Osiris Horus is "sometimes known as Harsiesis, to distinguish him from the others. He is depicted as a falcon, or with a falcon's head. He eventually avenged Osiris' death and reclaimed the throne, ruling peacefully...Herakhty, or 'Horus of the Horizon', was a sun god who rose each morning on the eastern horizon. He was often identified with the sun god, Ra, and was eventually absorbed by him, forming Ra-Herakhty."[60]".

 

Source: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births

 

Throughout time facts about all of them have been blended together and it is very hard to come up with the definition of Which Horus we talking about. This is a lot of the confusion as to if these facts are straight or not.

 

Enter, You need to read an ancient langauge to read the old writing or find a reliable source who has put countless hours of shifting through it.

[Joshpantera]

I've known DM Murdock for years as what I consider an online friend and I'm one of her moderators. My handle is the sanskrit term, "tat tvam asi." I first found her while I was working on a book idea and the plot crossed over into comparative mythology and religion brought to a sci-fi setting. It was something that basically pulled the history and evolution of religion into an interesting climax and the parts about borrowed mythology played into the twist. I was into the Joseph Campbell foundation forums pretty steady when someone posted a link to her forum and I took off investigating her work. I found myself coming to her defense against apologists and was invited to join the moderation team and I accepted. So I've read a lot on the topic and I've been active in the arguing on behalf of it. 

 

These arguments have raged on with apologists like the Catholic website that was linked earlier going after Murdock and Gerald Massey. The motivation being to try and make all of this mythology comparing go away. Obviously Christians have to try and hold their position about the uniqueness of Christianity, which is largely false.  I have a copy of the book in question, Christ in Egypt: the Horus Jesus Connection. It's a good read and you have to refer to the book and all of it's citations to get a real handle on where these parallels come from. The ancient texts are cited in the book and whatever claims came from Massey she took the time to track down to the original source material and provide it. You know why she did that? Because of the apologists demanding primary source material and bitching about her 1st book The Christ Conspiracy. And I see that even then, the linked Catholic apologetic site still wants to try and contend with CiE even with the mountain of citation available. It's a descent sized book. 

 

There's a wealth of past information, conversations and debates on this issue @ her sub forum devoted to Christ in Egypt: http://www.freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=20

 

It's a hot topic and comes with a lot of debate. You can present questions about her work and the parallel lists there and she'll probably answer you herself. 

 

My take is that the main point is that information from the Egyptian mythology existed during the late 1st to 2nd centuries CE when Christianity was being formulated. The connection between Alexandria and Antioch is noted. There was talk about the many Horus's in CiE. That's a topic of discussion in her book and it's part of the information that was available to those who were comparing mythology and creating their own. It boils down to how many Horus stories were in existence when the Christian myths were taking off? Whether they were original to the Egyptian mythology or additions to the original matters very little aside from an apologetic tactic based on trying to put the focus on something other that the incriminating points. 

 

The parallel list may seem strange because it's sort of shock and awe oriented. For instance, apologists argue against Horus and his 12 disciples or followers. Well there's 12 hours of night and 12 hours of day. There's inscriptions, primary source material clearly depicting this. 12 followers facing Horus for the 12 hours of day light, and 12 followers reversed facing Seth in crocodile form representing the 12 hours of night. Jesus and the 12 follows in the wake of solar mythology. It's consistent with each of the other parallels shown to exist. Each one of these parallels gets in depth like that leading down different rabbit holes of information and at the end of the day, yeah, these earlier Egyptian myths were available source material which Christians could have copied when trying to formulate and proselytize Christianity....