Ravenstar Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Wow.. k THAT explains a lot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Let me just answer everyone at once.....y'all remind me of my father who gave up Christianity for his intellect. The same father that will die of dementia this year, yet had his seventh wife drive him 14 hours to see me this last weekend to apologize for abandoning me and our family years ago in his anti-Christian intellectual fervor. So I'm sure I pass my disdain for him to members here with that same blind arrogance. There's a Biblical precedent for this End... so you're on safe ground here. Inflicting what you feel for your father on us is no different for God inflicting the sins of the father on the third and fourth generation. In both cases the people who are blamed and who receive the anger WERE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY WRONGDOING! WE AREN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HURT INFLICTED ON YOU BY YOUR FATHER - SO YOU'R WRONG TO INFLICT IT ON US! Lol, he said, "I guess I didn't think that through". And neither have you. It's the same here. A new member PMed me recently and described this place as "a cesspool of self-righteousness". The correct answer would be yes. The correct answer would be that you are a hypocrite. We aren't called to righteousness by a God - you are. If we act in a more righteous way than you, then you've failed to do as your God commands you. The failure is yours to live up to and by God's word. Don't blame us for being better than you. You point to the Bible to show us how we should be, but never look in the mirror and apply what scripture says to yourself. Pharisee! Many here need to heed my father's example. He's caused a lot of pain that will last generations. So why are you inflicting any pain on us when we have nothing to do with your family? That Jeff, and I'm tired of the Betty Better than You church crowd after my divorce. Nope. That's wrong. We were morally and ethically better than you before and during your divorce. So forgive me if I'm not coming off as a believer. I believe but I'm just having to rely on the sacrificial aspect of Christ's work at the moment. Narrow is the Door indeed. So sacrifice yourself as God's word tells you to and live at peace with us by showing grace and building a better relationship with FTNZ, for a start. Or is that door too narrow for End3? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Let me just answer everyone at once.....y'all remind me of my father who gave up Christianity for his intellect. The same father that will die of dementia this year, yet had his seventh wife drive him 14 hours to see me this last weekend to apologize for abandoning me and our family years ago in his anti-Christian intellectual fervor. So I'm sure I pass my disdain for him to members here with that same blind arrogance. Lol, he said, "I guess I didn't think that through". It's the same here. A new member PMed me recently and described this place as "a cesspool of self-righteousness". The correct answer would be yes. Many here need to heed my father's example. He's caused a lot of pain that will last generations. That Jeff, and I'm tired of the Betty Better than You church crowd after my divorce. So forgive me if I'm not coming off as a believer. I believe but I'm just having to rely on the sacrificial aspect of Christ's work at the moment. Narrow is the Door indeed. I'm not your father. *cuesmechanicalheavybreathingsound* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 16, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted April 16, 2015 Tough crowd! Let us remember that Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. I worked with a guy who would drink, fight and fuck every weekend while proclaiming the gospel to strangers the whole time. He was forgiven, he said, and I shouldn't look to him as the example but to Christ as the one to emulate. Whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Tough crowd! Let us remember that Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. I worked with a guy who would drink, fight and fuck every weekend while proclaiming the gospel to strangers the whole time. He was forgiven, he said, and I shouldn't look to him as the example but to Christ as the one to emulate. Whatever. Well, first you have to know what you are fighting. Christianity has helped me understand different concepts. Secondly, the hurt and stuff still has to come to surface and leave. Even Christianity says it's a process. I'm not sure why you think any of us should be able to flip a switch and it be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConsiderTheSource Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Wow End3, that is so hard. I am so sorry about your father. It is so wrong to abandon one's immediate family on so my levels. So many people out there damaged by self center parents...who have the gall to demand or expect respect from their respect from their kids when their actions do not warrent it. IMO... probably the strongest one I have... Every father trades a large portion of their right to self determination and self expression whenever they bring a new life into the world, or invite one to be part of their life. How much of "their life" should he give up? Answer: whatever it takes. End, I would urge you to seek out what is true, honest, and correct and use it to help you become you.... that with will which maximize your life. Spend time and energy to become you, and not what your father is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Oh well, that's alright then, isn't it? The people you insult, cuss at and bear false witness against are just collateral damage in your healing process? . . . Thanks, End. I'm just so pleased that I could help you on your journey of healing by being the butt of your insults and the proxy target of the resentment you feel against your father. . . . Btw, where does it say in the Bible that to be healed you have to lash out and hurt other people? Chapter and verse please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I understand you have some issues end3, who doesn't? It's called life and shit happens. The bible has a lot to say about forgiveness, and a warning to those who refuse to forgive. Not judging you,.....just say'n. Living the Christian life isn't easy. Putting those lofty words in action is difficult and the truth is no one can do it. Christians are obsessed with sin, however they choose to define it, and it will always become a yoke that is too heavy to bear. Over time it just beats a person down and destroys hope. Christianity is an endless circle of contradictions, false hope, and fear. Christians are terrified of death because there is no assure they are going to make the cut, or should I say cuts. That final judgment thing.....remember. Your sins are forgiven and forgotten, except God apparently doesn't forget and will bring them up again at the final judgment. The contradictions and inconsistencies found in all forms of Christians is never ending. You're positively and absolutely saved, but maybe not. Did you do enough and how much is enough and what qualifies as good works? The bible is silent on those vital questions. A Christian spends their life chasing the golden ring with no assurance they will ever obtain it. What a wonderful way to live. Sorry to hear about your dad end3 and his failures as a father, husband, and as a human being. I am sure a lot of us can tell stories about Christians who have done a lot of bad things to us too, like when you leave the faith and all your loving Christian friends turn their backs on you. When I left the Church of Christ, not Christianity, just a branch of Christianity the best and closest friend I ever had in this world came to my office and officially ended our friendship. He let me know I was dead to him and his family, unless or until I repented and came back to not only the Church of Christ but the congregation where he worshipped. Love your neighbor as you love yourself? Yeah, like I said, lofty words that simply do not reflect reality. Apparently posting here satisfies some need you have end3, so have at it. Do your thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Ever watch the film, 'Twelve Angry Men', End? Either the Henry Fonda 1957 original or the 2007 tv movie with Jack Lemmon? In case you haven't here's the gist of it. One of the twelve jurymen is nursing a deep, secret hurt against his rebellious son and in his anger decides to take it out on the defendant by marking him down as guilty - regardless of the evidence. But, of course, the defendant isn't the man's son. There's no connection between the two except in the juryman's mind. So voting to have him punished (regardless of his real guilt or innocence) is just maliciousness and spite, for it's own sake. There's no healing involved in lashing out against others like this. The one doing the lashing out isn't healed and the one receiving the punishment isn't healed either. Others are also deeply affected by this twisted act of rage. Everyone suffers and there's no healing at all. . . . So please don't try to kid us that there's some scriptural precedent for you 'being healed' by insulting us! . . . You're just using the Bible as an excuse and a justification for your misdirected anger. . . . Hypocrite! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Christianity has helped me understand different concepts. Secondly, the hurt and stuff still has to come to surface and leave. Even Christianity says it's a process. I'm not sure why you think any of us should be able to flip a switch and it be better. Christianity doesn't help you understand concepts. Rather it prevents you from understanding. And instead of healing it looks like you are nursing a life-long grudge that affects all your new relationships as well. I've been there. Christianity lies about forgiveness. I had to become an atheist before I ever learned how to forgive others. Forgiveness is actually very easy but you will never learn how following the Christian model. Christianity claims that the most perfect being has to kill his son before he could forgive. Christianity claims that forgiveness needs innocent blood spilled. Christianity confuses the concept of forgiving with forgetting. It is a load of crap. I know for a fact that we do not control what we believe. However losing your faith does feel like flipping a switch. When it happens everything changes. However not all is positive. If you ever do lose your faith you will experience some negative emotions. They are all the emotional hooks Christianity put into you over the years and decades. It took me five months to work through all the fear Christianity did to me - what I did to myself by becoming a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 16, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted April 16, 2015 Christian thought, while it does have some positive points, will generally insulate one from reality as real answers and help continue to elude. Religion is but one way to approach the world and its problems, but it is by no means the most effective or accurate view, though it is presented as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Let me just answer everyone at once.....y'all remind me of my father who gave up Christianity for his intellect. The same father that will die of dementia this year, yet had his seventh wife drive him 14 hours to see me this last weekend to apologize for abandoning me and our family years ago in his anti-Christian intellectual fervor. So I'm sure I pass my disdain for him to members here with that same blind arrogance. Lol, he said, "I guess I didn't think that through". It's sad to hear the above, End. I can only guess by analogy with my own experiences what it may have been like for you growing up. It's the same here. A new member PMed me recently and described this place as "a cesspool of self-righteousness". The correct answer would be yes. Many here need to heed my father's example. He's caused a lot of pain that will last generations. I think the new member (Ric, perhaps?) and you are mistaken if you mean "cesspool of self-righteousness" to apply in general. I see a lot of ex-Christians on here struggle very hard to figure out how to remain loving spouses and parents and children within families where the other spouse and/or children and/or parents remain traditional Christians. Many people on here, especially when they first leave the faith, have little real-life support, and they express how they value the feedback and support they get here - even if it's only online. This, for example, just recently from sparklingphoenix: http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/67445-still-on-my-way-out-13-years-later/?p=1037694 But I think you know well this aspect of the site. That Jeff, and I'm tired of the Betty Better than You church crowd after my divorce. So forgive me if I'm not coming off as a believer. I believe but I'm just having to rely on the sacrificial aspect of Christ's work at the moment. Narrow is the Door indeed. Those of us who have been here for a while know how hard it's been for you, End. BTW I hope that your relationship with your daughter - is she 20 or so now? - is going along OK. I agree that some self-righteousness comes out on here in responses of Ex-Ch's to Christians. That's pretty much ALWAYS when the Christian is making dogmatic assertions. And perhaps "self-righteousness" is not the right word. I guess there is self-righteousness over some political issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 I agree that some self-righteousness comes out on here in responses of Ex-Ch's to Christians. That's pretty much ALWAYS when the Christian is making dogmatic assertions. And perhaps "self-righteousness" is not the right word. I guess there is self-righteousness over some political issues. I seriously doubt the Christians were talking about our political views. They think we are self-righteous because we reject their imaginary friend. I think self-righteous is definitely the wrong word. We have ex-Christians who have spent decades inside Christianity. Some have experienced all that Christianity has to offer. I'm talking about people who have really sacrificed for the religion. But once the faith died they began to make decisions based on logic and fact. That was when they realized that many of the Old Testament stories were about genocide, that all through the Bible women are hated and treated as second class humans, that the Bible supports slavery, that the very core of the Christian religion is a human blood sacrifice that is completely immoral, that Christian churches do evil things both now and all though history and finally there isn't a single shred of evidence that any of it is true. So it is not self-righteousness that makes us reject that religion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 The question is, what good is it to renounce a belief if it doesn't qualify one as changed? you again eh? Just can't quit can you. What about those of us in life that never had to renounce anything since we never followed it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Let me just answer everyone at once.....y'all remind me of my father who gave up Christianity for his intellect. Hello end3 (45678910) I didn't give up christianity for my intellect. I set out to actually prove christianity right, and in doing so found that it was false. Even begged god to reveal the truth to me and prove that he existed and that christianity was true. Nothing happened. I never gave up christianity willingly, i went down kicking and screaming and praying my ass off that god would help me, and again, nothing happened. As usual, you, like other christians, think we all gave up christianity on a simple whim, or because we wanted to use our "intellect" instead of faith. You know, you and i hate each other with a passion, but the only difference between you and i, is that i allow evidence and facts to dictate my beliefs. If you came on here and said hey ceilingcat, here is the definitive proof that christianity is true, then proceeded with providing me with historical facts that can be verified, provided irrefutable archeological evidence, silenced all 1001 contradictions/discrepancies, and then personally, as i obeyed the bible, all its promises came true, then i would be a believer again. That is all that separates you and me, facts and evidence and personal experience. You remind me of my mother. No matter how much logic and actual facts and evidence i put before her to prove it is false, she just keeps blindly believing it is all true. Some people are in it for life i guess. -Peace/Cat P.S. I love ketchup on my hotdog 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted April 17, 2015 Share Posted April 17, 2015 Why is it that there is no evidence or facts to prove santa clauses existence, and it's ok to not believe in him, but if i don't believe in god, because there is no evidence or facts to prove his/her/its existence, it makes me some devil worshipping, atheist pagan that deserves to be punished in a place called hell for all of eternity? Santa Clause - No evidence that he exists = ok not to believe in him God/Jesus - No evidence that he exists = not ok to not believe in him The whole thing is silly. Get on your knees and pray to some invisible person named bob = your insane. Get on your knees and pray to some invisible person named jesus = you're in your right mind. Bullshit, the whole thing is superstitious nonsense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 It's the same here. A new member PMed me recently and described this place as "a cesspool of self-righteousness". The correct answer would be yes. I thank God every day End3, that you here to balance the scales between the self righteous and the humble. I've never been judged by one so holy in such a gentle and graceful manner. (I'm sorry to hear about your troubled childhood, and I swear that's true. Mine was just as shitty in it's own way.) Isn't it nice to know that God looks down on us in love while He does nothing to help? It would be so much worse if He looked down at us with indifference while He did nothing to help. I feel especially sorry for those whom He looks down upon in anger as He does nothing to help. If I didn't know better, I might believe that He doesn't even exist. But I do have His promises that He will do something to help us if we just ask. It's so comforting (praise the Lord!) to still have those promises after I ask and He does nothing to help. I just couldn't make it without HIM and His promises! It's also comforting to know that He cares about all of the children of the world. Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in His sight. I know that that is just a song, but it's true isn't it? Of course it is. Unless of course, a child's Grandpa looked at a woman's tookus in lust, because then he is as guilty before God as if he had broken the whole law, and in that case the child is just fucked. But justly so, according to God's righteous and perfect plan of love and grace. Glory to God in the highest! May HIS name be praised! We have hope, End3, not as the world gives, but the hope that God gives. The hope that the child of the fucked up child may not sin, and his children then will be able to live peacefully and serve God in all humility. For God is gracious; His mercy endures forever. End3, again I thank you for being so humble, and not self righteous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Thanks all for the supportive and less supportive comments. Dad taught us condescension. One of the professors that dad taught with told me a story about me at maybe age 6 or seven......watching Tony Dorsett run for the Cowboys, he said that I told him, "I bet he is dumb as dirt". That really shouldn't have come out of a 6 year olds mouth. It's been the same ever since. I can't shake it and I've tried hard...really hard. The good news is I (woot!) now work for myself and am not married and only see my children and close friends that I love. I have decreased the rate of incidence by limiting contact.....it's the only method I have not tried. The interesting thing is those that I trust and love, I don't have those qualities. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Someone is in serious need of secular emotional and psychological therapy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 Someone is in serious need of secular emotional and psychological therapy. Been there done that...already have the t-shirt. I think Ravenstar has come the closest with saying, "it's just hard work" to overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted April 18, 2015 Share Posted April 18, 2015 ...and you socialize here. You are deconverting. It will get easier eventually. It all makes so much more sense when there's no big "plan" to follow or figure out. Again, I'm being serious with you. It will be ok. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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