AlwaysGrounded Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 In this thought experiment, I see 3 types of people. 1) Those of us who think and behave like "this is it", without the need of fear or coercion to do the right thing 2) Those who sort of behave for fear of hell or afterlife punishment, or the promise of some great reward 3) Those that don't care, aren't afraid or motivated by fear of gods or laws If religion in general truly evaporates, that still leaves the third group that will always be a danger to society. Some of those in the second group will migrate there. How do you cope with this potential? I guess I feel somewhat better because I've convinced myself that it could be worse if it weren't for religion. But I hate that as a crutch. Is there an answer? AG 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Yes. People behave as they wish, for good or ill because of their own innate inclinations and self interest. Even philanthropy is ultimately selfish. Christians are so because religion fulfils a need in some people. But those who really don't care for any other person will express that whether or not they call themselves Christian or subscribe to a morality that they actually ignore. On that basis, the evaporation of religion would be irrelevant. The truly philanthropic and truly misanthropic will continue to be as they have always been. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llwellyn Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 There is no guarantee that the truth will not generate social disintegration, and there is no promise that "all will be well, all will be well, all manner of thing shall be well." There is no extra-human assurance that "the truth will set us free." Even so, I think we should pursue and explain truth no matter if it puts in jeopardy every precious thing. Even if a truth would damn the whole world, it should be spoken. We should be champions of the truth, no matter what we put at risk. First we owe it to one another to speak the truth, let the chips fall where they may. Inquiry should begin and end with truth. "Every man is fully satisfied that there is such a thing as truth, or he would not ask any question." After that, each person and each society must make whatever accommodations they feel are appropriate in the context of the truth. It's their responsibility to act like humans, whether they are told narcotic lies or alarming truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moanareina Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Just think about all those who use religion for their benefit...and who draw all who are willing to be drawn to with them...and do much harm to society with their bigoted views. Like discriminating gays and other sexual orientations they can not comprehend. Then think about the psychopaths who blow themselves up or motivate others to blow themselves up for the sake of their religion...And then those who molest children when serving their God(s)...and all those who somehow justify their harmful behavior with serving a God... And now think again... Really, I have seen more good people without religion than with religion. Or to put it in other words, people who are not corrupted by religion show more empathy than those who are corrupted by religion. And I am convinced that empathy is key in moral behavior. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 Aren't some of the low-crime countries in the world also low-religious-belief countries? Japan, Scandinavian countries... ? Shame can be an effective deterrent to misdeeds, and shame operates, not vertically, from God down to humans below (rather, that is guilt), but horizontally, from disapproval of other members of the community. Ideally, shame is internalized; your self-image takes in the values of the community, so that if you violate them, your self image suffers. And few of us want to feel that we are bad people. It may in fact be easier to justify one's misdeeds within a guilt-driven self-image, if you think that your misdeeds can be forgiven in the end for some cause. So I'm not prepared to say that if we lose religion, our society will then lose morality. I think people fear the above consequence because it's been instilled in them that we are moral BECAUSE God will get us if we're not. What about a society in which you're moral because you want to be a moral sort of person? Not all crime would be deterred; there are Japanese criminals. But I'm hypothesizing that crime would be deterred at least as well as in religious countries, many of which are high-crime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 19, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2015 Welcome, Grounded. Religion doesn't make people good. In fact, I believe religion has caused greater misery than it has alleviated. Horrible things are incidentally done every day be religious people; look at all the pedophiles and rapists and thieves who claim Christianity. Look at the evil committed in the very name of religion; bigotry, witch hunts, suicide murders, war. No, I think we'd be better off without religion, but that will never happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BinkleyBoo Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 the very worst people I have personally known have been the 'deeply or moderately religious'. evil, cruel, just awful. I would like to see a world without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted April 19, 2015 Share Posted April 19, 2015 I think religion has done some good to mankind. But the bad results far outweigh the good overall. It is never a question of will a particular religion become corrupt.; It's a question of when. And how corrupt. It really is like the genie out of the bottle and out of control. Government will also get corrupt to the extend it allows religion to influence it. Boy does it ever. I don't know what would fill up the time of the faithful of all faiths if religion vanished. Could that (whatever it becomes) be as bad or worse than religion? If it is, that would be a major disaster for mankind. Rip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewTomlinson Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Aren't some of the low-crime countries in the world also low-religious-belief countries? Japan, Scandinavian countries... ? Shame can be an effective deterrent to misdeeds, and shame operates, not vertically, from God down to humans below (rather, that is guilt), but horizontally, from disapproval of other members of the community. Ideally, shame is internalized; your self-image takes in the values of the community, so that if you violate them, your self image suffers. And few of us want to feel that we are bad people. It may in fact be easier to justify one's misdeeds within a guilt-driven self-image, if you think that your misdeeds can be forgiven in the end for some cause. Indeed, religious counties do more poorly in terms of human rights, happiness, and general wellbeing. Also, at least in America, prisons are filled by a disproportionately large number of religious persons compared to the overall population. Christianity teaches that you are born a sinner. You can't avoid doing evil, no matter how hard you try. But that's okay, because you can feel better just by talking to yourself. This is no deterrent against immoral and destructive behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Look at the middle east right now. Something like 200,000 people are dead in Syria because some religious fanatics have a lot of guns. Look at Nigeria. God-fearing holy book thumpers are murdering, raping, terrorizing, and destroying people for not being crazed fundamentalists like themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlwaysGrounded Posted April 21, 2015 Author Share Posted April 21, 2015 I apologize for my poor attendance! My work schedule prevents me from doing the fun stuff like thinking about solving the world's problems. I had forgotten about cultures that depend on "shame" or "honor" for the sake of the family. It makes sense that it doesn't work in this country when a basis (maybe "the" basis) of Christianity is to "forsake all others" including family. A quick Google search indicates that roughly 83% Americans claim to be Christian of some sort. So we have a ways to go before folks behave simply because it's the right thing to do. That statistic sure seems high to me though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 As to the 83% - I recently saw it as 78%. Still a lot, either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 I apologize for my poor attendance! My work schedule prevents me from doing the fun stuff like thinking about solving the world's problems. I had forgotten about cultures that depend on "shame" or "honor" for the sake of the family. It makes sense that it doesn't work in this country when a basis (maybe "the" basis) of Christianity is to "forsake all others" including family. A quick Google search indicates that roughly 83% Americans claim to be Christian of some sort. So we have a ways to go before folks behave simply because it's the right thing to do. That statistic sure seems high to me though. 50% of those 83% cannot even answer the most basic questions about their supposed religion, like who the purported authors of the four gospels are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 In this thought experiment, I see 3 types of people. 1) Those of us who think and behave like "this is it", without the need of fear or coercion to do the right thing 2) Those who sort of behave for fear of hell or afterlife punishment, or the promise of some great reward 3) Those that don't care, aren't afraid or motivated by fear of gods or laws If religion in general truly evaporates, that still leaves the third group that will always be a danger to society. Some of those in the second group will migrate there. How do you cope with this potential? I guess I feel somewhat better because I've convinced myself that it could be worse if it weren't for religion. But I hate that as a crutch. Is there an answer? AG Jesus doesn't instill morals in people. People instill morals in their children. The most important values like not harming one another are universal and have nothing to do with religion. The unimportant baloney values come from the bible (you know, like not having other gods before Jehovah, keeping the Sabbath holy, etc). Christians and non-Christians do the right thing because they have been taught universal morals. The Christians just falsely attribute their morals to Jesus instead of the society in which they live. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts