Why Didn't God Kill Satan?

[FarflungWanderer]

It's a pretty simple question, really.

 

Picture this: You are Yahweh, God and Creator of the Universe. You have an army of (presumably) immortal Angels and you can will things to happen by merely speaking. Then, one day, one of your Angels decides to lead a rebellion against you. Because you're omnipotent, you instantly know that this Angel will go on to corrupt your Creation some day, and will lead millions away from you and salvation in Heaven. So, raising your invincible legions, you wage a brief war against this rebellion. When the smoke clears, this insurgent is at your mercy. What do you do?

 

Well, any sane man would say "find some deep dark corner of the universe, lock him away, throw away the key, and make sure he can't do anything to destroy what you've made". And you would be right, either by destroying or incarcerating this Angel and his surviving army, he must be removed from the equation.

 

The problem is that, according to Christian doctrine, this isn't what happened.

 

Satan is expelled to Hell, to preside over his army, yes, but he remains powerful. Powerful enough, in fact, that he is capable of absolutely cocking up Creation. More than that, according to Revelations, he's gonna have another go at it. If you ask more fundamentalist people, ​he's currently continuing to cock things up. One way or another, according to Christian doctrine, millions are going to Hell because of Satan's influence on the world.

 

So, why? Why was Satan allowed to continue to exist, let alone given such immense power? Why would an omnipotent and good God allow someone that He must know will destroy His Creation and throw untold millions to Hell to continue prattling on?

 

I personally propose two solutions to this problem: Either God is not omnipotent, and therefore did not predict that Satan would cock things up, or God is not Good, and allowed Satan to exist with full knowledge that Satan would be responsible for the suffering of all of Creation. There is no work-around, because we ​must assume that God is all-powerful and capable of doing anything he bloody well pleases. 

[Guest Furball]

Bible god knew everyone would find out just how evil he really was, and he doesn't like bad PR. So he invented an imaginary being called satan to take the blame for all the atrocities that were actually caused by god himself. Why would god kill the perfect scapegoat? 

[mymistake]

Same reason Superman never kills Lex Luthor.  You can't have a story without a bad guy.

[amateur]

Same reason Superman never kills Lex Luthor.  You can't have a story without a bad guy.

Exactly.  You can't have a good story without opposing forces, and the bible is a collection of stories to either try to explain why we're here and why things (both good and bad) happen, or are heroic myths with battling forces of good and evil.

[NoOne]

I just gave all of you an up-vote for making me laugh, stay awesome.

[sdelsolray]

That's the way many fictional stories go....the antagonist isn't killed off early in the story but only at the end.

[FarflungWanderer]

That's the way many fictional stories go....the antagonist isn't killed off early in the story but only at the end.

 

That's all well and good, but we're not talking about Batman here. This is freaking God, yet he can't pull the trigger.

 

What, did He shoot His gun up in the air and went "aargh"?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-lcqIuVaR8

[up until about 30 seconds this is relevant]

[♦ ficino ♦]

Free will.

[ironhorse]

Free will.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Collateral damage OK

[Fweethawt]

Wait! Wait! I got one!

 

Hold on...

 

 

Why didn't god kill Satan?

 

Cause he needed fire insurance!

 

 

Bah-dum-cheeshshshsh!!!!

[Fweethawt]

Free will.

  

Free will.

Uh-oh! One of you two is being really original here!

 

This is so cute!

 

I can't figure out who is copying whom!

[FarflungWanderer]

Regardless of who is saying it, how is "free will" an answer to the question?

[mymistake]

Regardless of who is saying it, how is "free will" an answer to the question?

 

 

Don't you know that "free will" is a magic answer that solves all problems?

 

Question:  What is 4 x 3? 

 

Answer:  Free will

 

 

 

 

Question:  Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart so that Egypt would have to endure all those plagues?

 

Answer:  Free will

 

 

 

 

Oh and I've got to drop a 2525 vid.  Had to do it.

[bornagainathiest]

Free will is a purely 'local' phenomenon.

On the largest scales (i.e. beyond the observable universe) free will becomes meaningless.

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/67578-where-did-god-come-from/page-3#.VTqBhyFVhHw

 

"Imagine living in a universe where nothing is original. Everything is a fake. No ideas are ever new. There is no novelty, no originality. Nothing is ever done for the first time and nothing will ever be done for the last time. Nothing is unique. Everyone possesses not just one double but an unlimited number of them.
This unusual state of affairs exists if the universe is infinite in spatial extent (volume) and the probability that life can develop is not equal to zero. It occurs because of the remarkable way in which infinity is quite different from any large finite number, no matter how large the number might be.
In a universe of infinite size, anything that has a non-zero probability of occurring must occur infinitely often. Thus at any instant of time—for example, the present moment—there must be an infinite number of identical copies of each of us doing precisely what each of us is now doing. There are also infinite numbers of identical copies of each one of us doing something other than what we are doing at this moment. Indeed, an infinite number of copies of each of us could be found at this moment doing anything that it was possible for us to do with a non-zero probability at this moment.
It is widely believed that the replication paradox was first discussed explicitly by the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche in 'The Will to Strength' (1886). He realises that

'the universe must go through a calculable number of combinations in the great game of chance which constitutes its existence … In infinity, at some moment or other, every possible combination must once have been realized; not only this, but it must also have been realized an infinite number of times.'
…
The spatial replication paradox has all sorts of odd consequences aside from the psychological unease it creates. We believe that the evolution of life is possible with non-zero probability because it has happened on Earth by natural means. Hence, in an infinite universe there must exist an infinite number of living civilisations. Within them will exist copies of ourselves of all possible ages. When each of us dies, there will always exist elsewhere an infinite number of copies of ourselves, possessing all the same memories and experiences of our past lives but who will live on to the future. This succession will continue indefinitely into the future and so in some sense each of us 'lives' forever." 

(Barrow, John D. The Infinite Book: A Short Guide to the Boundless, Timeless and Endless. London: Vintage, 2005. pp. 156-58)

 

In an infinite universe you cannot think a truly original, unique thought.

Nor can you feel a truly original, unique feeling.  Nor can you make any kind of truly original, unique decision.  Everything you have done, are doing and will do is infinitely copied by an infinite number of your duplicates.  

 

In an infinite and eternal universe... the above has always been the case.

Nothing is unique, nothing is original and there are no such things as individuality and unique identity.  Therefore, on the widescreen, cosmic scale there is no such thing as free will.

 

All that we can say is that individuality, originality, uniqueness and free will are purely local phenomena.

Local to the observable universe.  On the largest scales the observable universe (90 billion light years across) is less than a pixel in an endless fractal.

 

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[Fweethawt]

I watched that video to the end, BAA. I now feel nauseous...

[mwc]

     Free will?

 

     Who are we talking about here?  Everything that has a will, correct?

 

     So satan has the free will to disobey and god has the free will to obliterate him from all creation.  God tells humans to kill other humans that break his rules and god killed a ton of humans in the flood for not being up to snuff.  It seems this isn't a problem.

 

     To say that god can punish a thing just short of removing them from existence because of the concept of free will makes no sense whatsoever and removes free will from the god itself who might wish to actually destroy something but whose hands are apparently tied by something that allows another being to act.

 

     It seems free will is an invention to reign in a god who should have been able to deal with these problems without a second thought.

 

          mwc

[bornagainathiest]

I watched that video to the end, BAA. I now feel nauseous...

 

And so do an infinite number of 'other' Fweethawt's... who also watched that video.  

[mymistake]

I watched that video to the end, BAA. I now feel nauseous...

 

 

"My God!  It's full of stars!"

[Deidre]

Maybe ''Yahweh'' knows it's impossible to 'kill' an idea that people have conjured up in their heads.

 

Wait...

[seven77]

 

 

I personally propose two solutions to this problem: Either God is not omnipotent, and therefore did not predict that Satan would cock things up, or God is not Good, and allowed Satan to exist with full knowledge that Satan would be responsible for the suffering of all of Creation. There is no work-around, because we ​must assume that God is all-powerful and capable of doing anything he bloody well pleases. 

 

Is God transcendental? Does God possess/embody Goodness, Beauty and Truth (the transcendentals)? According the Bible, the answer is yes. You assert otherwise using an either/or paradigm. By saying that God is not omnipotent, you say that God does not embody truth. In essence, God is lying about knowing everything. By saying that God is not Good, you deny that God embodies Goodness.

 

Therefore, God does not transcend the plain of human morality. He is bound by the moral codes of mankind. This comes as no shock to those of us who have left belief in higher powers behind. It shouldn't be shocking to those who believe in Jesus, imo. God was a man that one time and so on.

 

The Transcendental qualities of Truth, Goodness and Beauty: "according to Christian doctrine, can be described as the ultimate desires of man. Man ultimately strives for perfection, which takes form through the desire for perfect attainment of the transcendentals." [taken from wiki] 

 

God is perfect, and the whole reason for God's creation and existence by man is justify our quest, our ultimate desires, perfection of the human condition. 

 

Why must we assume that God is all-powerful and capable of doing anything he bloody well pleases? An all-powerful being (insomuch as one exists) could choose to do nothing, to be totally and completely detached and inactive. In fact, I propose that is exactly what most spiritual paths direct man to do. Take no action, be 'one with the world'. There is no greater peace than silence, no greater revelation than stillness. 

 

Satan is a scapegoat. Surely no one denies this. Scapegoats are outcast from the community. They are supposed to take the sins of the community with them. Satan was punished, but who really bore the burden of the so-called sin after the casting out of the garden episode? Adam and Eve! A mythological construct (Satan) was not capable of taking on the sin. 

 

***********

 

Any attempt to rationalize the mythos of the Bible will drive a sane person crazy. It is best not to argue about Transcendentals, imho. God did nothing because God is merely the idealized and idolized desires of mankind. Satan is a scapegoat, yet another invention of mankind that shields us from having to take responsibility for own failures to live up to our Transcendental-ness. As was Jesus, the ultimate scapegoat.

 

Thousands of years, many paths and still no help has arrived to save us from ourselves. 

[AndrewTomlinson]

A logical lesson in morality direct from god:

1. God has free will.
2. There is no action that god would be incapable of, if he chose it.
3. God chooses inaction resulting in humans coming to harm.
4. God gave us free will.
5. God is the perfect example of good for humans to emulate.

Conclusion: The most morally good action for humans is inaction.

[TheOutsider]

I'd propose god didn't kill Satan because he couldn't, because Yahweh was actually created by Lucifer. Though I'm kinda fond of the idea that a trickster god is the actual supreme being of the universe, and we are talking about what's most likely fiction anyway.

 

Not that I believe any of it, just seems to fit better than some hard ass control freak sky daddy with a murder boner for all things human, at least to me.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 Why would god kill the perfect scapegoat? 

So that the perfect scapegoat's blood could wash away all our sins.

[readyforchange]

So this is my take on the free will question, which I'll explain in as a Q/A:  In order to get into heaven, are ALL humans required to make a free-will choice to believe that Jesus died for their sins?  My answer would be no - there are human souls who never made a free-will choice to believe that Jesus died for their sins who are in heaven, and these souls enter heaven on a constant basis.  This is taking into consideration the position that human life begins at the point of conception, and that there is an "age of accountability" to be reached by a human in order to fully comprehend and understand God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.  Personally, I think it is sad and a tragedy if a woman has a miscarriage, or if an infant or young child dies.  At the same time, the souls of those fetuses, infants, or young children, by most Christian perspectives, go to heaven.  I know there are some denominations (I think Calvinists are one) that believe babies must be baptized in order to be saved, but by and large, I think from the vast majority of Christian perspectives, infants and young children (who do not reach an age of accountability) will go to heaven when they die.  To me, if Christianity were true and if God requires humans to make a free-will choice to believe that Jesus died for their sins to in order to enter heaven, then from the time of conception until the age of accountability (let's say the age of 10, for example), it should be impossible for any human to die.  Once God "creates" a human, that human should not die until he or she reaches the age of 10 (or whatever the age of accountability would be)...IF free will is a mandatory requirement for entry into heaven.

 

Then, there are humans who do reach an accountable age or adulthood but who may have been born with mental deficiencies, and this can prevent him/her from understanding or comprehending the who/what/why of religions in general, and Jesus in particular.  When these humans die, I think by most Christians perspectives, their souls will go to heaven.  But as with the young, these humans are not self-aware to the point of making a free-will choice to believe Jesus died for their sins.  Also, you have instances out there still today of people living in more remote or isolated parts of the world who have never heard of Jesus - if they die before ever hearing or learning about Jesus before they die, then I think by most Christian perspectives, their souls will go to heaven. 

 

Bottom line to me:  If God is essentially allowing, on a constant basis, SOME human souls to enter heaven without the need to make a free-will choice about Jesus...why not just allow this for ALL?  If heaven is already populated with perhaps billions of souls, why would God not just create ALL souls directly in heaven in the first place?  If earth is supposedly this fallen, corrupt world after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, then why not just bypass earth and our existence in human bodies altogether?  Especially when God is essentially sending some human souls directly to heaven by default, anyway?