Selling Your Soul To The Devil

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Asking for someone who is deconverting: do you know of anyone who had in the past "sold their soul to the devil" and now did not consider that a problem?

 

Also, do any of you have info about the history of this belief about selling one's soul to the devil, or the theology of the devil character and demons?

 

Thanks in advance, you are awesome!

[directionless]

I never formally sold my soul to the devil, but I had an experience where I thought I worshiped the devil in my mind. I wasn't religious at that time (in fact I called myself an atheist), but I still had not totally debunked Christianity. I felt guilty afterwards even though I didn't necessarily believe the experience was real.

 

About 15 years later, I had a breakdown and the guilt over my imagined experience with the devil from years earlier became one theme of the hallucinations and delusions. That is why I started believing in Christianity again and attending church religiously for two years.

 

I recovered gradually by reading about Christian history, psychology, etc. It was hard, because even the tiniest sliver of belief in Christianity was multiplied by the consequences to become a recurring irrational worry. Now I'm back to my old self, and I have zero faith in Christianity and zero worry.

 

The devil seems to be a popular theme in mental illness, so I sympathize with people who have that concern during deconversion. It's silly, but it isn't fun for the people that have the problem.

 

There is a wiki here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deal_with_the_Devil

 

EDIT: I wanted to add that I'm not totally 100% atheist yet, but I am 100% non-Christian. Sometimes I wonder if some non-Christian God exists, but I feel like debunking Christianity is enough progress for now.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I think it derives from "the magician's bargain", he gets to do magic or command a demon, but in return loses a bit of him or herself. There is zero about this in the scriptures, but the occult has fascinated religious people for a very long time. I think this comes from the idea that if the god or angels won't use their magic to help us, perhaps we can make a deal with demons for a bit of magic. Jewish magic goes way back. If any of the stories about Solomon are true, he may have actually brought in the teachings of other religions to the Jews in a search for magical power to enhance his kingdom and to gain insights into the afterlife (and that is why we have the Kabbalah). The "star of David" is an old occult symbol of protection. That stems in part from the belief that geometric shapes had hidden divine meaning, something that may have either inspired or come from Pythagoras. If the gods made reality, then we could find clues about the divine nature in common things. Numerology is another such path that looks for hidden meanings in numbers sometimes by converting each letter of the scriptures to a number and then studying them for patterns.

 

I only know of one person in my old church that claimed to have been part of such a "coven" that made deals with the devil. She was a very troubled woman, the daughter of a pastor from another church. She went through a lot of "deliverance ministry" guys in our town and eventually set herself on fire, only succeeding in scarring herself permanently. So many hunches about abuse in her life, religious and otherwise, but she never talked about that. I doubt there was ever such a coven, since witches don't believe in the devil, and Satanists are more clear about who they are and why they are doing things. Mostly the stories were just myths retold by believers to convince themselves that the invisible world of spirits is all real and spooooookkkkyyyyy, ooooooohhhhh.

 

The person of "the devil" or adversary is obscure in the Old Testament. He first makes an appearance in Job where he appears before Yahweh and complains about god protecting Job. Daniel also talks about national demon princes and angels fighting when he is visited by Michael (keep in mind this is during the Babylonian captivity, and they had beliefs that could have influenced these writings). Most of the OT is silent about any enemy spirits or spirits at all. A later book in the OT, Zechariah chapter 3 mentions seeing Satan in a vision. The New Testament is where he is turned into a full-fledged interactive character intent on the destruction of god and his people. There is nothing in the OT about hell, damnation, lakes of fire, etc. There is some poetry about kings going "down" to the same fate as others, but verses in the same passage make it plain that they are using poetry. Satan is like one of the other gods, like Hades in Greek religion. These gods all had squabbles, but he wasn't considered "evil" per se. It was just his job to oversee dead souls. The OT shows that he was a troublemaker for people and that god is complicit in his actions.

[florduh]

I think this fantasy all started with Faust.

[Llwellyn]

I was a presbyterian, and this idea was not in presbyterian religion. It sounds kind of odd.  As an atheist as I think about it, it seems relatively benign.  I would sell my soul to the devil, especially if I could get a good price.  First of all, I don't think I have a soul or need one, so if someone is willing to give me money in exchange for a token, I'll do it.  I exchange lots of things with lots of different people -- my time to my employer, my affection to my partner, my loyalty to my family.  There are lots of exchanges going on.  If Satan is part of my environment, I am probably already in an exchange relationship with him, and I am happy to continue.  Likewise, if Yahweh's in the mix, I'll barter with him too.  Sales, market exchanges, bargains -- these are acts of freedom and with yield mutual vital felicities.

[mwc]

     I'm not sure where in the bible that the fate of the soul is negotiable under contract law.  Although that would be entertaining for people at the old Pearly Gates to have old St. Pete say something like "Gee...I'd like to let you in since you're a believer and all but as you can see under Section 3 paragraph 5 you did agree to waive all rights to your eternal soul in exchange the items in Addendum C.  There's really nothing GodCo can do on your behalf.  We made the mistake of sending all the Jews to, let's say, 'work' for the competition so this contract is air tight.  I'm sorry."

 

          mwc

[Guest Furball]

^{How can anyone sell their soul to the devil? Doesn't the bible say that until god saves someone, their father IS the devil? So how can someone sell their soul to the devil when it already belongs to him?}

[Guest Furball]

Famed guitarist robert johnson supposedly sold his soul to the devil at the crossroads. It is reported that he could not play the guitar at all. After this supposed meeting with the devil at the crossroads, he showed up to a gig right after and was able to play so good that people were speechless.

 

Deal with the Devil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Robert Johnson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[moanareina]

I have not read that piece yet and I am not sure what exactly it contains but I just had to think about Dante's Inferno.

 

As much as I know there is a lot of the views on hell etc. coming from that one.

[GraphicsGuy]

Asking for someone who is deconverting: do you know of anyone who had in the past "sold their soul to the devil" and now did not consider that a problem?

I have a long-standing invitation to any/all supernatural beings out there: my soul is completely for sale to whoever knocks on my door and can make me a compelling offer.

 

So far, no takers. Could be there are no supernatural beings. Could be that I just suck and no one wants to pay for my soul.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Thanks for the replies so far, people.  Can you share more generally about the beliefs you once had about demons and spiritual warfare, if any, and how you worked through them and got to a point where you are no longer worried about any of that stuff?  Thanks.

[directionless]

Thanks for the replies so far, people.  Can you share more generally about the beliefs you once had about demons and spiritual warfare, if any, and how you worked through them and got to a point where you are no longer worried about any of that stuff?  Thanks.

Even though I was an Episcopalian, my mother had more Evangelical beliefs, so I was raised to believe in demons possessing people and being cast out - just like the gospels. When I started having mental illness, I had not been to church for 20 years, I didn't pray, I didn't read the Bible, and I considered myself an atheist, but I still held-open the possibility that Christianity might be true.

 

One day I woke up hearing a voice talking to me that was so cruel it left me shaken for the rest of the day. For people who haven't heard voices, it is different than imagining a voice in a dream. It's very disturbing. So that was probably the prodrome phase of psychosis. A few months later I had a breakdown and became very religious for a year or two. In a weird way, belief in demons was helpful. At first I thought I had accidentally offended a world-wide conspiracy of devil worshipers. So I imagined they were breaking into my apartment and hiding speakers in the floor, following me in cars, drugging my food at restaurants, etc. Eventually I decided it was demons, and that made me feel better, because you could say something like "go away in the name of Jesus" and the demon had to go away.

 

For me, I recovered slowly over 5 years. Talking on forums helped me, because I could talk about my thoughts with some anonymity. Even the people on Christian forums told me I was mentally ill (to their credit). Reading books about the origins of Christianity also helped. I was worried that one of my best friends was trying to harm me in some unknown way for some unknown reason, but he came to visit me and I realized I had been mistaken. That was apparently the last step, because I've been o.k. for past 6 months.

 

I'm not sure if that helps. It is probably different for everybody and needs different approaches.

[Becks]

Thanks for the replies so far, people. Can you share more generally about the beliefs you once had about demons and spiritual warfare, if any, and how you worked through them and got to a point where you are no longer worried about any of that stuff? Thanks.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

Thanks for the replies so far, people.  Can you share more generally about the beliefs you once had about demons and spiritual warfare, if any, and how you worked through them and got to a point where you are no longer worried about any of that stuff?  Thanks.

Even though I was an Episcopalian, my mother had more Evangelical beliefs, so I was raised to believe in demons possessing people and being cast out - just like the gospels. When I started having mental illness, I had not been to church for 20 years, I didn't pray, I didn't read the Bible, and I considered myself an atheist, but I still held-open the possibility that Christianity might be true.

 

One day I woke up hearing a voice talking to me that was so cruel it left me shaken for the rest of the day. For people who haven't heard voices, it is different than imagining a voice in a dream. It's very disturbing. So that was probably the prodrome phase of psychosis. A few months later I had a breakdown and became very religious for a year or two. In a weird way, belief in demons was helpful. At first I thought I had accidentally offended a world-wide conspiracy of devil worshipers. So I imagined they were breaking into my apartment and hiding speakers in the floor, following me in cars, drugging my food at restaurants, etc. Eventually I decided it was demons, and that made me feel better, because you could say something like "go away in the name of Jesus" and the demon had to go away.

 

For me, I recovered slowly over 5 years. Talking on forums helped me, because I could talk about my thoughts with some anonymity. Even the people on Christian forums told me I was mentally ill (to their credit). Reading books about the origins of Christianity also helped. I was worried that one of my best friends was trying to harm me in some unknown way for some unknown reason, but he came to visit me and I realized I had been mistaken. That was apparently the last step, because I've been o.k. for past 6 months.

 

I'm not sure if that helps. It is probably different for everybody and needs different approaches.

 

 

That does help a lot, I think.  There are more people who have been through similar experiences to you than one might think. People are afraid to talk about it.  Hopefully this thread will help anyone who has these fears and doesn't feel able to post about it. Thank you, and I'm so glad things are going better for you now too.

[moanareina]

Thanks for the replies so far, people.  Can you share more generally about the beliefs you once had about demons and spiritual warfare, if any, and how you worked through them and got to a point where you are no longer worried about any of that stuff?  Thanks.

 

Oh my, not sure if I can put this in a few sentences but I will try sometime later or tomorrow.

[GraphicsGuy]

Thanks for the replies so far, people.  Can you share more generally about the beliefs you once had about demons and spiritual warfare, if any, and how you worked through them and got to a point where you are no longer worried about any of that stuff?  Thanks.

There was a point in my Christian walk where I kind of stopped believing a lot of the demon hype and whatnot. There were stacks of books in the church library/Christian bookstore and always an evangelist or two coming around, but demonology and end-times Pentecostal beliefs were the two areas that I actually used my brain.

 

I started to ask where people were getting their information about demons and I quickly discovered that almost none of it came from the Bible.

 

I can't remember the exact numbers, but there are thousands of verses in the Bible and perhaps 50 or so that deal with demons and/or Satan (whatever the amount, it's far less than 1%).

 

It made me really think that perhaps "God" wasn't all that concerned about demons and Satan, so perhaps Christians shouldn't give them as much attention either.

 

And then the part in the Bible where "God" was the one to send an evil-spirit to torment Saul...that's a real poke in the eye for the standard Christian demonology beliefs.

[Margee]

I am embarrassed to admit this but  as far as I am concerned with it, I did sell my soul to the devil once and I knew when I did that god would not be happy with me. God was stubbornly making me wait toooooo long about a prayer I kept praying about. I was at the begging point of asking god to give me an answer. I got sooo mad at god that I asked Satan to tell me what he thought... and it was within a couple of days that i got a distinctive answer and of course, I thought 'he' (Satan) told me what I wanted to hear. I begged god for mercy but knew that I was probably in trouble at that point with my christian walk. And I was. When one reverts to asking Satan for answers, you know your in big, time trouble. I knew I was going to hell a long time ago.....

[directionless]

I am embarrassed to admit this but  as far as I am concerned with it, I did sell my soul to the devil once and I knew when I did that god would not be happy with me. God was stubbornly making me wait toooooo long about a prayer I kept praying about. I was at the begging point of asking god to give me an answer. I got sooo mad at god that I asked Satan to tell me what he thought... and it was within a couple of days that i got a distinctive answer and of course, I thought 'he' (Satan) told me what I wanted to hear. I begged god for mercy but knew that I was probably in trouble at that point with my christian walk. And I was. When one reverts to asking Satan for answers, you know your in big, time trouble. I knew I was going to hell a long time ago.....

I wonder if sometimes "the devil" is a character our minds create to tell us upsetting things that we know are true?

 

In other words, our minds put these immoral, frightening, antisocial ideas into the mouth of "the devil" so that we can think about these ideas without taking responsibility for having proposed these ideas?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

 

I am embarrassed to admit this but  as far as I am concerned with it, I did sell my soul to the devil once and I knew when I did that god would not be happy with me. God was stubbornly making me wait toooooo long about a prayer I kept praying about. I was at the begging point of asking god to give me an answer. I got sooo mad at god that I asked Satan to tell me what he thought... and it was within a couple of days that i got a distinctive answer and of course, I thought 'he' (Satan) told me what I wanted to hear. I begged god for mercy but knew that I was probably in trouble at that point with my christian walk. And I was. When one reverts to asking Satan for answers, you know your in big, time trouble. I knew I was going to hell a long time ago.....

I wonder if sometimes "the devil" is a character our minds create to tell us upsetting things that we know are true?

 

In other words, our minds put these immoral, frightening, antisocial ideas into the mouth of "the devil" so that we can think about these ideas without taking responsibility for having proposed these ideas?

 

That makes some sense.  What a refreshing change to be able to think of all our thoughts as being our own.

[wyson]

Margee, I got to ask, what did the Devil say?!

[Margee]

Margee, I got to ask, what did the Devil say?!

wyson, it was the same type of thing that would happen when I prayed to the 'lord'. A 'sign' of some kind (coincidence) would show up and show me my answer. Most of the time you had to do a lot of guessing because the 'sign'  for the answer to any prayer (for me) was always so subtle but sometimes it would show up as coincidence and I would think I received my answer.

 

In this case, the 'request' to Satan showed up as a person who told me to 'go ahead'.   This thing I had been praying for (to the lord) was months long waiting (no answer at all it seemed from the 'lord') and that's when 'I sold my soul' and got real pissed off at god  because he was taking too long and said to Satan, ''Well if god can't answer this, maybe you can''.....so I asked the devil what his answer would be and it only took a couple of days for this coincidence to show up and answer my prayer. I hope I'm explaining myself.......

 

It amazed me back then how quickly Satan could answer prayer. I suffered for many years over this and begged the 'lord' for forgiveness, so this was not easy to admit openly on Ex-c. I started to drink alcohol shortly after this to dull out what a horrible, bad person I was. I completely thought that Satan had me in his grips back then. I actually hesitated responding to this post because I've always felt so 'low' as a person for stooping to this level.

 

Religion hurts people.......

[wyson]

 

Margee, I got to ask, what did the Devil say?!

wyson, it was the same type of thing that would happen when I prayed to the 'lord'. A 'sign' of some kind (coincidence) would show up and show me my answer. Most of the time you had to do a lot of guessing because the 'sign'  for the answer to any prayer (for me) was always so subtle but sometimes it would show up as coincidence and I would think I received my answer.

 

In this case, the 'request' to Satan showed up as a person who told me to 'go ahead'.   This thing I had been praying for (to the lord) was months long waiting (no answer at all it seemed from the 'lord') and that's when 'I sold my soul' and got real pissed off at god  because he was taking too long and said to Satan, ''Well if god can't answer this, maybe you can''.....so I asked the devil what his answer would be and it only took a couple of days for this coincidence to show up and answer my prayer. I hope I'm explaining myself.......

 

It amazed me back then how quickly Satan could answer prayer. I suffered for many years over this and begged the 'lord' for forgiveness, so this was not easy to admit openly on Ex-c. I started to drink alcohol shortly after this to dull out what a horrible, bad person I was. I completely thought that Satan had me in his grips back then. I actually hesitated responding to this post because I've always felt so 'low' as a person for stooping to this level.

 

Religion hurts people.......

 

 

Sounds awful.  I'm did something like this to myself also but because of general sin.  Well I hadn't done anything bad in my life, so I had to turn to "normal" stuff to justify how much of a sinner I was.  Like when I was a kid, I beat my brother up so I was an awful sinner deserving of death and eternal damnation.  It's at once super stupid when viewed from the outside, but when you are doing it to yourself its horribly painful and vividly real.

 

How have you coped with the guilt / recovered from the bashing your self esteem took?

[Ellinas]

In strict doctrinal understanding, I'm with Cool Cat on this one.  Christianity would have us belonging to the devil unless saved.  You can't sell what you don't own, and you can't sell it to the person who already owns it (unless, in this particular instance, you a supernaturally gifted fraudster...).

 

The concept of a pact with the devil I suspect has its' basis in folktales, particularly when co-opted to justify the phobia behind witch hunts.  It's another accursed invention of (likely Catholic) Christian hierarchy, demonizing folk beliefs to persecute those who don't fit in with the ecclesiastical prejudices.  I stand to be corrected if anyone knows any better.

 

Of course, it might well be that any given individual, labouring under the fears that Christianity engenders as to hell and the power of the occult, may become convinced that they have personally given their soul to the devil.  That is another painful personal issue that is ultimately caused by this religion.  Did I sell my soul to the devil when I turned pagan?  In my gut, for a time, I had that fear.  Sense and logic eventually won out though.  It takes time.

 

Margee - I hope this has not left you with any lasting scars.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

"It amazed me back then how quickly Satan could answer prayer."

 

I encountered "the devil" in a dream about 4 years ago. I figured that my mind was working through what to do with this figure who had been so huge in my view of reality.

 

In my dream, I was in the house where I grew up. It was nighttime and I was in the kitchen with my brother talking about something. The light was off and bright moonlight was streaming through the window. I peeked out at the moon and it was like an artist's line drawing, incredibly detailed and far too close to Earth. I said, "I have to go out to look at this". I went to the back porch and looking through the door, there was only fog outside. I looked through the side window and it was clear and moonlit. I tried to turn on the light and nothing happened. This was a common theme in my dreams of when the devil would be present, I can't turn on the light. I knew he had suckered me into coming out there, and felt the familiar chill creeping up my legs and had trouble moving or speaking. I heard a child laughing and he tried to run past me. I grabbed him and threw him down and stepped on his chest, and started to say "Jesus!" and was struggling to do so.

 

Then I realized what I was doing. I said clearly, "No, I don't need Jesus to do this, I need to do this." (That was a turning point) He chuckled, got up and went out the door, saying "Careful, you're about to sin!" I said, "There is no sin."

 

He was running around in the moonlight laughing like a child. I watched for a while and said, in almost a question, "You're me aren't you." He kept running around and I went out and watched as he ran up to a rose bush, completely bare in the Winter light except for thorns, and he smiled and embraced it. He then let go and started to run past me. I grabbed him and pushed him into the rose bush and he yelped. I said, "It hurts you if I do it to you, but not if you do it." I realized he wasn't my enemy and I don't need to hurt him anymore. He's me, we work as one.

 

Then I woke up. I had just encountered me on a very deep level. An intensely creative and childlike me who knew that I had been following a lie for a long time and wanted to clear up that his urges and thoughts were not evil and separate, but very much flowed within. He was showing that there is a creative stream within that wants to play and do things that are fun and challenging, that he can do things I can't imagine consciously. I simply need to let him play and let his dreams become real.

[Blood]

I think this fantasy all started with Faust.

 

I believe you're right, specifically with the "Historia von Johann Fausten" printed in Frankfurt in 1587. English translation 1588-89, which inspired Marlowe's play. 

 

Basically evangelical nonsense invented after the death of a real person, Johann Fausten.