Being Respectful To Xtian Friends

[Jaseph]

I've been an xtian for about two decades (I don't count my early childhood; children should not be claimed for a religion). In my late teens and early twenties I was quite fanatic at it. Now I am 28 and I've left xtianity about 20 months ago. A lot has changed since. Xtianity does not make any sense to me. I just can't relate to my former self anymore. I think differently about many topics and I feel like a different person in general.

 

This makes it hard to relate to my friends and family when it comes to their faith (most of my friends are (still) xtians). So they still pray, they go to church (occasionally) and do their xtian things. Mostly are not as enthusiastic about their faith as they were, but xtianity has become a strong part of them, and it probably will stay like that for a while, if not for their lives, because not many people have the courage to honestly study their religion and explore alternatives.

 

I just think all this xtian stuff is a waste of time, it's silly and some parts I find offensive (like the idea of calling children "xtian children"). I don't have much positive to say about religion. However, I feel a lot of positivity towards these friends, they are truly great people and I am glad that they are my friends. That makes it hard when they start talking about religion (fortunately they don't do it a lot) - I find it hard to control myself and start mocking xtianity in their face - and you know there is so much to mock; I mostly do it in an intellectual/comical manner, not in an angry/bitter manner (I am not that angry at xtianity anymore, I just think it is silly). I have done this quite often already (I think that's why they don't start to talk about this topic as much as they used to). On one hand I want to be respectful and friendly to these friends, but on the other I find it very frustrating to see them doing their xtian thing; I want to get them out. I have the principle that I don't start talking about xtianity (I don't want to evangelize), but if they start I am quick to respond.

 

I am talking about friends here. If people who are not friends start talking about xtianity, especially if they are evangelizing I have no mercy for them (or rather for their religion; I don't like to mock people themselves).

 

How do you treat your xtian friends? How do you maintain the balance between being respectful to them and between showing as being authentic about your stance on religion (and trying to expose them to the idea that leaving may be a good idea)?

[TrueFreedom]

I try to be happy for them when they mention something good from their religious paradigm.  I might plant a scientific or philosophical seed now and then, but I try not to make a big deal about our differences in beliefs.

[EyesOpened]

True Freedom has a good approach. I have a lot of xtian friends but i have taught myself to look at the friendship first, trumping their religious background. If it gets out of hand with "God talk", i just bring science into the mix and that usually changes the conversation.

 

Or if you are feeling up too it this might be a chance to start to get them to critically think.

[AndrewTomlinson]

I have this problem as well. My family is still xtian and I see them fairly often. Every now and again, if presented with a situation she disapproves of, my mother will state how her god doesn't like that and it would be better to just obey her holy book. If I know of a fact that indicates otherwise, I tend to share it. (Which usually results in her dismissing the fact as false, citing logical fallacies, etc.) Also, it seems the only things in her life she considers worth sharing are her religious experiences and revelations. It's very difficult for me to simply appreciate that she is excited about this and not reply with a snide remark about how awful it is. If she were just a friend, we would likely not remain friends...

 

For example, she might tell me that her church is starting a new program to indoctrinate poor and uneducated children in foreign countries. (Not in those words.) Which is a terrible, horrifying thing from my perspective. But if I simply responded with, "That's awful! I wish you wouldn't do that to innocent children." ... there's a fair chance she wouldn't appreciate my perspective.

[Deidre]

I treat them with the same respect shown to me. Those who wish to preach ‘at’ me and scold me for leaving, I don’t hang out with much. Those who love me as a friend, no matter what…they have my respect and love back. I actually lost a few friends over my deconversion. I was hurt at first, but I’m past it now. Your true friends will love you no matter what, and if you wish to be respected, it’s only natural to show respect to them. Even if their beliefs are not what you believe, anymore.

[Burny]

I wish I could respect my religious friends, but it's very, very hard. My world view has shifted so much that I now pretty much think of most of them as abusing their children with irrational, false and damaging beliefs (i.e. misogyny, afterlife, racism...). Any discussions that we might have are ruined by their irrational beliefs, including science, philosophy, politics, sports, hobbies etc.

 

So what's left? Not much.

 

I know it sounds harsh but if you as an atheist can still be great friends with your religious friends, then either you're not an atheist, or they're not truly religious. I think modern xtianity is so loosey, goosey that it is possible to remain friends with those people, but unfortunately I'm from a strict, fundy sect that is not just the "Jesus loves me" crowd.

[Xiana]

It's definitely a struggle to relate with my friends and family that still have god. Mostly, my struggle/frustration comes from knowing that they're smart people who should be able to figure it out... an "if I could do it, they sure can, but why aren't they?" kind of thing.  It distresses me a bit to see them not realizing the potential life they could have if they opened their eyes.  In a way though, that actually makes me relate back with their belief.. they wish the same things for me with their beliefs.  The only difference is that they feel distressed that I'm going to hell, and I feel distress that they're wasting precious time believing crazy things instead of enjoying their one life for what it really is.

 

Because people aren't often open to reasonable argument, sadly, I think the best advice can be taken from an evangelical example:  live so that they see the truth in you.  If they see that you're living a good and happy life without god, or at the very least that you haven't become a monster without god, over time it may change their perceptions about atheism.   It's slow, but inevitably it will be difficult for them to hold two opposing thoughts/experiences (who you are vs. who an atheist is), and they'll have to find some kind of mental resolve.

[happyheretic]

Kind of like hate the sin love the sinner. I do not respect their religion but I do not want to disrespect the person.

My problem is not so much with anything an individual does, it has more to do with the fact that their church teaches them that the unsaved are not respectable and do not think or behave ethically. How can they be respectful toward me when they are taught to believe some pretty terrible things about me? How can I return respect that isn't given to me?

[happyheretic]

It's definitely a struggle to relate with my friends and family that still have god. Mostly, my struggle/frustration comes from knowing that they're smart people who should be able to figure it out... an "if I could do it, they sure can, but why aren't they?" kind of thing.  It distresses me a bit to see them not realizing the potential life they could have if they opened their eyes.  In a way though, that actually makes me relate back with their belief.. they wish the same things for me with their beliefs.  The only difference is that they feel distressed that I'm going to hell, and I feel distress that they're wasting precious time believing crazy things instead of enjoying their one life for what it really is.

 

Because people aren't often open to reasonable argument, sadly, I think the best advice can be taken from an evangelical example:  live so that they see the truth in you.  If they see that you're living a good and happy life without god, or at the very least that you haven't become a monster without god, over time it may change their perceptions about atheism.   It's slow, but inevitably it will be difficult for them to hold two opposing thoughts/experiences (who you are vs. who an atheist is), and they'll have to find some kind of mental resolve.

That was very beautifully said. Maybe off topic but what do you do when you do go through hard times or your life isn't perfect? With my family I feel like they look for every little thing to prove I'm horribly afflicted without god. The pressure to be great reminds me of the Christian pressure to be great. Really we are all just people with ups and downs.

[Xiana]

That's tough, happyheretic.  Fortunately, I haven't experienced that kind of scrutiny from anybody yet.. I'm really not sure how I'd handle it.  It sounds like your family using confirmation bias (looking for explanations to questions that match up with your beliefs) to give an answer to why troubles would happen to you.  Maybe they don't realize they are doing this?  Maybe they should be reminded that you had tough times even when you were a Christian?  Maybe they should be reminded of the great victories and blessings you've had as atheist.

 

You're right about the pressure though with trying to show them you have a good life... maybe the focus shouldn't be on living perfectly, where nothing bad ever happens to you or that you can't make mistakes. Like you said, everyone has downs. I think the telling thing is the way you handle life's challenges and mistakes... showing that you made it through by YOUR strength, not god's.... moving on, picking up, not becoming defeated or out of control.  Of course, some christians will take that as god having mercy on you... for some people I just don't think there's a lot you can do, it's up to them to be honest with themselves, and some never will.

 

I feel for you in your situation.   Having a place like this with people who know what you're going through really helps!

[Blood]

 

 

How do you treat your xtian friends? How do you maintain the balance between being respectful to them and between showing as being authentic about your stance on religion (and trying to expose them to the idea that leaving may be a good idea)?

 

By not talking about religion. If they bring it up, I try to say as little as possible while still sounding polite. 

 

At a party, a co-worker started talking about American history with me, because he knows I'm interested in the subject. "I was reading Glenn Beck's book," he said, "and he wrote that George Washington attributed his victories over the British as Divine Providence." 

 

I have nothing but contempt for Glenn Beck, whom only a lunatic would call an "historian," and am well-aware of Washington's irreligious views. I was also tempted to say, "Yes, divine providence -- and a loan of 1 million livres and 20,000 highly-trained troops from the French." 

 

But I said nothing except, "Hmmmm." 

[Jaseph]

All interesting comments, thanks! Interesting to see how differently you all cope with this. I guess it depends a lot on how your friends behave. The more fundamental christians are hard (like burny says); I myself have let go of two friends, because they kept evangelizing and manipulating me all the time; which I find understandable from their perspective that I was on my way to hell, but not tolerable as a way to treat your friends so I fired them; I did not tell them - they should have seen from my reaction that I gave every time they evangelized on me that they crossed a line and they just kept on doing it.

 

These events triggered me to think about my own behavior towards xtians. I do not want to be like them (the couple I describe above), just trying to convince the other all the time (in a manipulative manner); I want to focus on our friendship, on having a good time and being there for them if they need me. So I think I will take the advice to not talk about it a lot (like blood says), and just live my life and hope that they can see from that that leaving the faith was a good step for me (and it may be for them) - and if not respect them for their choice and just be there for them as a friend is supposed to do.

 

I would like to be able to just discuss religion openly/rationally with friends, but I guess that is rarely possible... it's too much of an emotional topic (from both sides) to be able to do that. So I'd better do that as little as possible.

 

The good thing is that there are plenty of other topics to discuss with my good friends. It took some time, but now we just talk about sports, girls, work, every day life, university, etc more than we used to, which is way better than discussing religion! In this way they already live a secular life when they are with me!

[amateur]

 

 

 

How do you treat your xtian friends? How do you maintain the balance between being respectful to them and between showing as being authentic about your stance on religion (and trying to expose them to the idea that leaving may be a good idea)?

 

By not talking about religion. If they bring it up, I try to say as little as possible while still sounding polite. 

 

At a party, a co-worker started talking about American history with me, because he knows I'm interested in the subject. "I was reading Glenn Beck's book," he said, "and he wrote that George Washington attributed his victories over the British as Divine Providence." 

 

I have nothing but contempt for Glenn Beck, whom only a lunatic would call an "historian," and am well-aware of Washington's irreligious views. I was also tempted to say, "Yes, divine providence -- and a loan of 1 million livres and 20,000 highly-trained troops from the French." 

 

But I said nothing except, "Hmmmm." 

 

"Hmmmm" is an excellent response.  I'm also good at "How interesting," and "Wow," accompanied by a pleasant smile and no further comment.

 

I do have a good friend who's Catholic, but other than knowing she's Catholic that's the extent of our religious conversation.  We talk about our jobs, the kids, exercise (we're both avid in our own pursuits), and middle-aged lady subjects like menopause and hot guys.

[Jaseph]

 

 

 

 

How do you treat your xtian friends? How do you maintain the balance between being respectful to them and between showing as being authentic about your stance on religion (and trying to expose them to the idea that leaving may be a good idea)?

 

By not talking about religion. If they bring it up, I try to say as little as possible while still sounding polite. 

 

At a party, a co-worker started talking about American history with me, because he knows I'm interested in the subject. "I was reading Glenn Beck's book," he said, "and he wrote that George Washington attributed his victories over the British as Divine Providence." 

 

I have nothing but contempt for Glenn Beck, whom only a lunatic would call an "historian," and am well-aware of Washington's irreligious views. I was also tempted to say, "Yes, divine providence -- and a loan of 1 million livres and 20,000 highly-trained troops from the French." 

 

But I said nothing except, "Hmmmm." 

 

"Hmmmm" is an excellent response.  I'm also good at "How interesting," and "Wow," accompanied by a pleasant smile and no further comment.

 

I do have a good friend who's Catholic, but other than knowing she's Catholic that's the extent of our religious conversation.  We talk about our jobs, the kids, exercise (we're both avid in our own pursuits), and middle-aged lady subjects like menopause and hot guys.

 

Hmmmm. How interesting.

 

Just kidding .

 

About those responses blood mentioned; they are great indeed. Much better than starting a discussion (what I often feel tempted to do). I haven't had the opportunity to use it, but I hope I have the same self control as Blood when people say such irrational things, because I think that although it's good to speak up, often you should just let people have their crazy beliefs. Unless you want to argue with people all of the time; sometimes it's entertaining, but often it's frustrating and I don't feel a calling to convince all people to act rational (ok actually I would love to get to that point, but I have learnt enough about the stubbornness of most people that I know I shouldn't waste too much energy trying).

 

The good thing is that I have learnt to speak up - 1.5 year ago I would stay silent much more often, which often made me feel bad, because I did not have the courage to speak up for what I (don't) belief. Now I find it really easy to argue with xtians, I don't feel any hesitation at all. But perhaps it's time to learn to do that less and just know that I have superior rationality and let them stay in their craziness (and only discuss when the opportunity is perfect; when people actually seem willing to have an open conversation about something).

[RipVanWinkle]

I simply don't talk with my Xtian friends about Xtianity. They don't know I am an exchristian. What's the point of telling them? We go to different churches.. They don't go to the church we all used to go to, so they don't know that I don't go to  any church. We  see each other only in social settings. I avoid religion if the subject is brought up. 

 

There are all kinds of Xtians, aren't  there? Most are good folks and harmless, though they have not thought through their faith, just as I hadn't for many years. To these type of Xtians telling people what they must believe was "over the top". That certainly was true for me. I needed a lot more certainty before I would do that. It never came. If a true believer approaches me, I simply say that I'm not interested. I think it's a waste of time. unless someone expresses an interest  in  exchristianism. (I think I just invented a new word.) I like discussing Xtianity with Xtians who visit here, because their bogus arguments are pointed out easier in writing than verbally, in my opinion. But it's a matter of personal preference.   Rip

[MightyLikely]

I don’t treat my Christian friends any particular way.  My lifestyle is not obviously different from theirs except that I don’t go to church or talk endlessly about my beliefs.  I don't engage when they start talking about religion, and I have found that they really aren't interested in knowing what I think about religion.  They know I'm not in line with them but they aren't sure exactly how far out of line I am, and none of them really want to find out for sure.  Anyway, they are too busy affirming their own beliefs.  It is a thing that Christians have to do.  I think of it as sort of like having Tourette's Syndrome--they just have to break out every so often with a bunch of Bible Texts and Praises Jesuses.  They can't help it and I accept that and I accept them as long as there are other things about them that make them worth keeping as friends.

 

I have no desire to expose them to the idea of leaving Christianity because this may not be good for them.  It takes a strong mind to survive the total destruction of one’s belief system, and I don’t think every person is ready for it.  While I agree with you that there is much about Christianity that is silly, our Christian friends take it very seriously and I would not mock it because a friend does not mock a friend.  

[GraphicsGuy]

I have no Christian friends. I did not look up anyone from my past when I joined Facebook. A few of them added me early on, but I quickly blocked them after they preached to me about my changed views.

 

There were a few I discovered that had also left church...but they all ended up back in the net and, I'm sorry, but I truly think they are idiots for doing so because they fully admitted to me how much grief church/religion had caused them.

 

The few (maybe 5 people...I think) who are still among my Facebook friends are those who either don't post much, respect my views, or I have blocked their posts so I don't have to read their fucking drivel.

 

The only good Christian friend is the friend who doesn't make religion an issue with you and can accept that you aren't going back that way.

[qadeshet]

I respect everyone's right to believe anything they wish, as long as their beliefs harm no one else. I let my few Christian friends know that discussing Religion with me is not a good idea. I do not suffer fools gladly.