Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Forgiveness


sparklingphoenix

Recommended Posts

Recently I talked to my grandfather on the phone and he, in an attempt to steer me in the 'right' direction, told me to make sure I forgive so that I don't become bitter. He said forgiveness is the only way to move on and be a healthy person. I honestly don't even know what this word means anymore. Forgiveness seems like such a foreign/abstract concept. What exactly is happening when you forgive? It can't be some mystical epiphany...

 

In christianity, forgiveness has been explained to me like it's some magic spell. When you say you forgive someone, you're instantly expected to be healed and everything is right in your life. *Congrats! You're a pious christian again!* Although I think people know this is not really what happens, people continually tell me to forgive over and over again. It's really annoying. Just because I express that I am still in pain from the idiocy of my family doesn't mean I am harboring hatred for them. It simply means that I haven't healed. Why do people always tell me to forgive? How is this even helpful? In addition to all this, if I don't constantly open myself up to people who hurt me after I forgave them, then I have not actually forgiven them and I'm bitter...

 

To me, forgiveness is more like something you can only give to yourself. You can forgive yourself for making mistakes or being too critical of yourself. To me that has to do with learning self love. However, when you need to forgive someone else... How? The only thing I know to do is to just focus on letting go of the past and trying to find ways to move on and shed my past hurts little by little. I feel like I have forgiven my family members for the things they've done, but I don't think I'll ever forget. I don't intend to learn the same lesson over again forever! That's foolish!

 

Can you still feel sad or upset about things people have done but still have forgiven them? I have to continually accept that my family is not what I need them to be, and my dad has permanently burned the bridge between us through his consistent, toxic behavior. I can't trust my parents with anything, but when my grandfather sees me keeping my distance, he tells me not to be bitter and that I need to forgive. I really don't know what else to do... 

 

The christian concept of forgiveness is so full of shit, guilt trips, and empty explanations, so I think I need to figure out a new way to understand it as a non Christian. What are your thoughts on forgiving others as a non christian? Do you feel some sort of epiphany where at some point you don't care anymore and don't feel hurt? Or do you just learn from the past, and try to move on from it even though it still hurts? I don't know if the saying, "time heals all wounds," is really true. From my experience so far it looks more like what this quote from Rose Kennedy says,


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens. But it is never gone.”
 
I don't think that outlook must mean the person hasn't forgiven.
 
Thoughts?
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I think the "forgive and forget" mantra is just bogus. If someone who has hurt you has made an honest and genuine attempt to correct their ways or express their regret, I think forgiveness is just a way for you to recognize that, for them to know they've been heard and recognized in their change, and for you to allow yourself to heal.  However, I don't think you can ever forget.  With some hurts, it's difficult to restore the amount of trust or respect you had for someone before whatever happened, so you have to go forth with a new understanding about them and perhaps a different way of interacting with him.

 

My dad cheated on my mom, put his business before our family, and financially wrecked my mom when they divorced, leading me to spend my adolescence in a very insecure environment. I believe I've forgiven him in that I don't hold it against him anymore.. he's admitted he made mistakes and I can see the regret in his eyes when I see him. However, I'll never forget. I still get mad that I went through what I went through and that my mom did too, but I just see it as what it is. A part of our relationship will probably always be damaged. But, we try to reconnect in other ways, which I guess is another part of forgiveness..

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The "epiphany" I had during my first year or so of deconversion is that the Christian version of forgiveness is backwards.

 

True forgiveness should never, ever, ever, ever be asked for.

 

True forgiveness should be offered freely, without being asked for, by the person who was wronged...for their OWN sake. Forgiveness is absolutely NOT for the benefit of the wrong-doer.

 

And forgiveness should be completely optional. Sometimes it's good to not forgive someone for a long time. Sometimes it's better to forgive and move on.

 

If someone makes a mistake or does something wrong in some manner, they should simply own up to it, "Yes, I fucked up, I'm sorry." Begging for forgiveness is absolutely ridiculous and simply throws the burden onto the person that was wronged and causes them nothing but pain and heartache.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Personally, I think the "forgive and forget" mantra is just bogus. If someone who has hurt you has made an honest and genuine attempt to correct their ways or express their regret, I think forgiveness is just a way for you to recognize that, for them to know they've been heard and recognized in their change, and for you to allow yourself to heal.  However, I don't think you can ever forget.  With some hurts, it's difficult to restore the amount of trust or respect you had for someone before whatever happened, so you have to go forth with a new understanding about them and perhaps a different way of interacting with him.

 

My dad cheated on my mom, put his business before our family, and financially wrecked my mom when they divorced, leading me to spend my adolescence in a very insecure environment. I believe I've forgiven him in that I don't hold it against him anymore.. he's admitted he made mistakes and I can see the regret in his eyes when I see him. However, I'll never forget. I still get mad that I went through what I went through and that my mom did too, but I just see it as what it is. A part of our relationship will probably always be damaged. But, we try to reconnect in other ways, which I guess is another part of forgiveness..

 

I suppose that forgiveness is more like a mindset that you have then. If someone is actually sorry and makes an effort to change, then you can offer them forgiveness so they feel better, and just move on without necessarily forgetting what happened. I agree about the restoration of trust being really difficult. My dad repeated the same cycle of bad behavior over and over so many times through out the 21ish years (before I cut off contact completely) that I just don't think I can ever let him back in my life again. Even if I do, I don't think I could ever trust him in any way. Your dad sounds like a piece of work tool. Ugh, I'm sorry :/ My dad put a lot of his debt into our house payment before he and my mom divorced, reaaaaalll nice guy... It's nice to hear your perspective about still feeling upset about what happened sometimes. It makes me feel more normal. My family is not so good at admitting faults, and they tend to shove the blame back on me, so I have to keep my distance. I'm really just trying to do the same as you,it seems. Just trying to find ways to deal with my feelings and then move on. 

 

The "epiphany" I had during my first year or so of deconversion is that the Christian version of forgiveness is backwards.

 

True forgiveness should never, ever, ever, ever be asked for.

 

True forgiveness should be offered freely, without being asked for, by the person who was wronged...for their OWN sake. Forgiveness is absolutely NOT for the benefit of the wrong-doer.

 

And forgiveness should be completely optional. Sometimes it's good to not forgive someone for a long time. Sometimes it's better to forgive and move on.

 

If someone makes a mistake or does something wrong in some manner, they should simply own up to it, "Yes, I fucked up, I'm sorry." Begging for forgiveness is absolutely ridiculous and simply throws the burden onto the person that was wronged and causes them nothing but pain and heartache.

 

You (and Xiana) made a really good point that forgiveness is something earned, not freely handed out to people who don't deserve it. This helps clarify my thoughts more.  It's weird how it took me this long to realize how messed up the christian version of forgiveness is. I always got hurt by other people because they saw my bleeding christian heart and always knew I would forgive them no matter what. Christianity really made me a doormat for a while. I like your thought that forgiveness should be optional. It's like people think they are entitled to be forgiven and if you don't forgive, then you are the evil sinner instead. Just like what you said, it's strange that the person who was hurt gets the blame that the wrong-doer should be getting! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, very very well-said GraphicsGuy!  I've had fragments of thoughts like that, but you helped solidify them. What a great reminder. 

 

SparklingPhoenix.. I agree!  In Christianity, it totally does come back on you being stubborn and holding anger when you don't forgive. Like it should be instant.. That's messed up.  I don't think it's humanly possible to do that, with or without god. And if you do or think you have, you probably haven't handled your feelings in a healthy way.  Situations like ours, with family members hurting us, need so much time. You go through it in different stages.  I think the way I see my dad now is almost with a weird pity... I know he knows he messed up, and I almost feel bad that he lives with that shame and guilt... it's hard for me to lord unforgiveness over his head when I know he is regretful, because I know it means he knows what good he could have done, and that he tries now.  The pain he caused may never be "redeemed," but it's squelched a bit by seeing that in my dad, if that makes sense.

 

By the way, my dad has never actually outright asked for forgiveness... only indicated that he wishes he'd made other changes, etc., which is kind of a passive way of doing so.  So, to GraphicGuy's thought, forgiveness was definitely something I chose to do, and was not begged to do.

 

I hope you'll be able to find some peace with the things going on in your family. So good that you're here for support!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how you will both feel about this saying...I'm still not sure I know how I feel about it...came up when I was having a discussion with a psychologist a few years back:

 

"Forgiveness is giving up the hope of a better PAST."

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The pain he caused may never be "redeemed," but it's squelched a bit by seeing that in my dad, if that makes sense.

I don't think pain is ever redeemed or gone. It is always with you.

 

I still feel the pain of deconversion, the pain of loss every day. All one can really do is grow past it. Grow strong enough to stand up and move on with the pain intact.

 

I still feel the guilt and anguish of hurts that I caused others in the past and I know they haven't forgiven me...but I have to accept and live with that guilt, not attempt to throw it on them. All I can do is understand why I did what I did and attempt to never repeat those actions again.

 

The most difficult (for me) to deal with is when the person that caused you pain won't admit they did anything wrong. That, I find, is the most frustrating of all because there is never a resolution and even the opportunity to "forgive" is never truly presented.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, very very well-said GraphicsGuy!  I've had fragments of thoughts like that, but you helped solidify them. What a great reminder. 

 

SparklingPhoenix.. I agree!  In Christianity, it totally does come back on you being stubborn and holding anger when you don't forgive. Like it should be instant.. That's messed up.  I don't think it's humanly possible to do that, with or without god. And if you do or think you have, you probably haven't handled your feelings in a healthy way.  Situations like ours, with family members hurting us, need so much time. You go through it in different stages.  I think the way I see my dad now is almost with a weird pity... I know he knows he messed up, and I almost feel bad that he lives with that shame and guilt... it's hard for me to lord unforgiveness over his head when I know he is regretful, because I know it means he knows what good he could have done, and that he tries now.  The pain he caused may never be "redeemed," but it's squelched a bit by seeing that in my dad, if that makes sense.

 

By the way, my dad has never actually outright asked for forgiveness... only indicated that he wishes he'd made other changes, etc., which is kind of a passive way of doing so.  So, to GraphicGuy's thought, forgiveness was definitely something I chose to do, and was not begged to do.

 

I hope you'll be able to find some peace with the things going on in your family. So good that you're here for support!

 

Ahh I see. I know seeing the remorse in your dad is probably not as good as it would be to hear him actually apologize to you. I really wanted my dad to apologize to me for a long time, but he isn't capable of that. Both parents adopt the approach of, "I'm sorry you feel that way," which allows them to not take any responsibility.  So along with what Graphicsguy is saying, it has been hard to get over everything since no one will own up to their mistakes. They just act like I am the weird one with all the problems. I've had times where I felt pity for my dad, and it encouraged me to try with him, but I kept ending up with the same results every time so I decided to just end that relationship all together. Now I just try not to think about it too much. Hopefully since I did therapy and I don't see him anymore, I can move on in time. I can understand your sentiments about your dad and I would probably feel the same way if I saw my dad appear to have any remorse. Even though I'm sure it still sucks, I'm glad you can have some sort of closure.

 

 

I'm not sure how you will both feel about this saying...I'm still not sure I know how I feel about it...came up when I was having a discussion with a psychologist a few years back:

 

"Forgiveness is giving up the hope of a better PAST."

 

I actually like this quote. Its a fresh perspective for me. I've had to give up on my resentment and disappointment of my past. The struggle to accept it is real though... 

 

 

 

The pain he caused may never be "redeemed," but it's squelched a bit by seeing that in my dad, if that makes sense.

I don't think pain is ever redeemed or gone. It is always with you.

 

I still feel the pain of deconversion, the pain of loss every day. All one can really do is grow past it. Grow strong enough to stand up and move on with the pain intact.

 

I still feel the guilt and anguish of hurts that I caused others in the past and I know they haven't forgiven me...but I have to accept and live with that guilt, not attempt to throw it on them. All I can do is understand why I did what I did and attempt to never repeat those actions again.

 

The most difficult (for me) to deal with is when the person that caused you pain won't admit they did anything wrong. That, I find, is the most frustrating of all because there is never a resolution and even the opportunity to "forgive" is never truly presented.

 

 

The last part you said here about people not admitting that they hurt you is the worst. That's what I've been dealing with my family on the daily. They're always in such denial. Yay!  I really have no idea if the pain will ever go away. Maybe in time it won't be loud. We can always hope for that, right? ;~;

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Real forgiveness is deciding the past isn't going to bother you anymore.  It is moving forward.

 

Christian forgiveness is putting yourself right back into "total trust mode" so that a con artist or abuser can hurt you even more.

 

By the way I love that quote from GG's friend.  That was great and thanks for sharing.  We can't have a better past.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know if the past will ever stop bothering me or making me sad if I think about it, but maybe forgiveness will be complete when I can finally accept everything. Maybe forgiveness is never-ending. That's how I feel now, but hopefully later I'll feel differently!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Religious people need forgiveness because they see it as the lifting of a curse off of them. Its like being worried about a Gypsy hex being put on you.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's an interesting thought! It probably has something to do with the whole complicated salvation message and how we need god's forgiveness for being exactly what he created us to be. freak3.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forgiveness is doing nothing but fooling yourself into thinking otherwise.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forgiveness as a xtian is a weird concept to me to, indeed it's like some sort of spell to wash away "sin", another meaningless concept. And you are commanded to forgive others, because you have also been forgiven. I think it's very unhealthy to forgive because you feel obliged to do so.

 

Now, forgiveness just means letting go. Accepting that we all make mistakes (sometimes conscious, sometimes unconscious). Being able to talk about these mistakes with people, saying when someone crossed a line (or when you did it yourself) and finding each other again. Now that I am not xtian I have clearer boundaries; most mistakes I easily pardon, but some I do not accept and they do have consequences. However I always try to understand their perspective, just so I can make some sense of it and let go of the negative emotion towards them. But sometimes I also let go of them.

 

I also think it's fine if people treat me this way; I don't want people to fake that they don't care about what I do, I'd rather just be held accountable. And they can take their time to rebuild their trust. I think that's much more healthy for relationships. I'd rather have it that people are open to me and that they trust me based on my actions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally forgot about forgiveness.

 

It's weird alien concept, now there isn't a hateful / ever loving God sitting in judgement of everything.  There is life.  And you have to do what you have to do to get on with it.

 

Infact, forgiveness is often not desirable.

 

For instance, I will never forgive or forget the fundamentalist Christian theologies that brought me so much grief and pain.  It is a survival mechanism.  It would be an impossibility to "forgive" the damage it has done.  To forgive would be to given my assent to its worth.  I could never move on.  But anger / plotting revenge isn't a solution. Education into its absurdities is.  I'm not going to look back in old age and think, well Fundamentalist Christianity, that was a funny phase I went through, something benign like being into computer games.  It is shit and always will be shit!  

 

Also, you can forgive people some parts but not others.  I absolutely won't forgive my mom pushing me into fundamentalist theologies.  Does it get in the way?  Sure.  But I can also see she is just a person and try to appreciate other facets of her personality.   But again this is reasonable.  It sets clear boundaries in our relationship regarding what is and isn't acceptable. For instance, her admonishing me for leaving the Church is unacceptable.  But doing the same because I forgot her birthday, well that's fine and I feel bad when she does it.

 

Part of becoming an independent functioning adult is to understand what does and doesn't work for you, to set or push your own boundaries.  Forgive if you want.  Don't forgive if you don't want.  But get on with your life in the best way you can.

 

Remember, there isn't an all knowing God with a plan for you, who will sit in judgement with perfect justice at the end of days. It isn't healthy or even possible to forgive everything (At an extreme, would it be healthy to forgive Hitler?!  Oh he gassed 6 million Jews but we will forgive him because he is human and all.  No, the correct response is to see this as the embodiment of evil, never to be forgiven or forgotten so it never happens again).  But only you can decide what you find acceptable or not.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@sparklingphoenix.

 

I also had the same problem as you.  I tried to get my mom to apologise for indoctrinating me into Christianity.  It was a fruitless exercise in emotional pain for both parties.

 

These days, after making my position on Christianity absolutely clear, we don't get into it.  She thinks I am wrong and I think she is wrong.   We both know this and try our best not to step on each others toes.  Yes this does create distance, but no more than with other adults with whom you have a core fundamental disagreement with about the meaning of life.  Just because someone is family doesn't make them exempt.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do keep my distance from her and don't enjoy a free wheeling relationship based on laughter and jollies, but I wouldn't want to ex communicate her nor abandon her to her ignorance. 

 

A person isn't just their faith, as much as a career doesn't make a person etc.  It is just a facet.  At the end of the day, my mom clothed and fed me, and I have many happy memories with her, especially before she became a fundie.  To reduce her only to her faith would be a tragedy.

 

Maybe when the pain of your deconversion subsides, you will be able to overlook (not necessarily forgive) your parents faith and mistakes?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forgiveness as a xtian is a weird concept to me to, indeed it's like some sort of spell to wash away "sin", another meaningless concept. And you are commanded to forgive others, because you have also been forgiven. I think it's very unhealthy to forgive because you feel obliged to do so.

 

Now, forgiveness just means letting go. Accepting that we all make mistakes (sometimes conscious, sometimes unconscious). Being able to talk about these mistakes with people, saying when someone crossed a line (or when you did it yourself) and finding each other again. Now that I am not xtian I have clearer boundaries; most mistakes I easily pardon, but some I do not accept and they do have consequences. However I always try to understand their perspective, just so I can make some sense of it and let go of the negative emotion towards them. But sometimes I also let go of them.

 

I also think it's fine if people treat me this way; I don't want people to fake that they don't care about what I do, I'd rather just be held accountable. And they can take their time to rebuild their trust. I think that's much more healthy for relationships. I'd rather have it that people are open to me and that they trust me based on my actions.

 

I agree! Forgiveness really did always feel like an obligation to me, and that made it feel fake. I like the definition you have of it meaning letting the past go. That's what I've been trying to do. About boundaries, I don't think I was raised to have any boundaries with people. It really messed me up and so many people took advantage of me because of that :/ I've been able start making more healthy boundaries for myself after deconverting as well. I would also rather have people treat me the way you described. If I hurt someone I wouldn't want them to forgive me out of obligation. That would make things awkward and unnatural. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@sparklingphoenix.

 

I also had the same problem as you.  I tried to get my mom to apologise for indoctrinating me into Christianity.  It was a fruitless exercise in emotional pain for both parties.

 

These days, after making my position on Christianity absolutely clear, we don't get into it.  She thinks I am wrong and I think she is wrong.   We both know this and try our best not to step on each others toes.  Yes this does create distance, but no more than with other adults with whom you have a core fundamental disagreement with about the meaning of life.  Just because someone is family doesn't make them exempt.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do keep my distance from her and don't enjoy a free wheeling relationship based on laughter and jollies, but I wouldn't want to ex communicate her nor abandon her to her ignorance. 

 

A person isn't just their faith, as much as a career doesn't make a person etc.  It is just a facet.  At the end of the day, my mom clothed and fed me, and I have many happy memories with her, especially before she became a fundie.  To reduce her only to her faith would be a tragedy.

 

Maybe when the pain of your deconversion subsides, you will be able to overlook (not necessarily forgive) your parents faith and mistakes?

 

I'm glad you and your mom try to respect each other's boundaries more now. My mom has stopped trying to engage me on religious topics, but she still spouts off stuff and prays. It sounds like you and I are basically on the same page in that area! My issues with my parents involve a lot more than just religion, so that makes it more complicated. Aside from religion, both of my parents have really unhealthy tendencies in the way they interact with me, so I have to keep my distance because of that as well. My dad was so abusive that I can't have him in my life at all. I can at least feel that my mom loves me, how ever limited her ability to show it is, so I don't want to be totally estranged from her. She has good moments here and there. My mom did help to provide for me, where my dad did not, so I do feel some appreciation to my mom. I don't know if I will ever be able to forgive my dad, and sometimes when I feel like I have forgiven my mom, she does something that makes me feel so alone and unloved that I end up at square one all over again. I really don't think it's possible to have a normal relationship with them. My dad is already remarried and has his own life. He disowned me on my birthday last year so I am done with him. Maybe once I get more stable, I can be able to let go of my mom's mistakes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After I got divorced, I was really angry and bitter at my ex-husband (15 years of marriage and two kids) and devastated in a lot of ways.  I felt like he had emotionally abused me and left me financially unstable.

 

After the divorce was finalized, he sat with me and FINALLY told me why he had acted the way he had when we were married, said it was all his fault, said I had done nothing that would have made him divorce me, and explained what had gone on in his own psyche.  He didn't go on and on about it, he didn't actually apologize, but what was better was that he told me the TRUTH and I realized, especially as time went on, that he had told me the whole, honest truth, and I really was very grateful.  It really took a lot of courage for him to tell me what he did (I won't discuss the details out of respect for him).  So many people who are divorced never really know the "why's" of the divorce and can spend a lot of years in bitterness and questioning, and bouncing between being mad at their ex and blaming themselves.  

Knowing the truth took away a lot of the anger, and after some more years it has completely taken away my anger and bitterness and I have completely forgiven him, and accept that he has his flaws like everybody, and even have sympathy for what he had to hide for those 15 years.  I absolutely admire his courage in telling me the truth.  We are much better friends than we were spouses, and we have been able to finish raising our kids together and be friends BECAUSE he was so honest with me.

 

I do not think I could have ever forgiven him if he hadn't told me what he did.  I'm not sure it would have been healthy to forgive him if he hadn't explained.  I could have learned to ignore him and move on with my life, but there would have been no reason to actually forgive.

 

But my ex-husband and I are peers, the same age, and we interacted only as two grown adults from the time we met.

 

As a parent, I absolutely believe that parents are held to a higher standard.  Parents influence your life from day one, influence you through your most formative years, give you your ideas of what is "normal" and "acceptable" in a family setting, and they are totally responsible for their own actions towards their babies and young children in that time.  If you need to keep a distance from your parents for your own sanity, then that is best for you.  If when you do need to interact, you keep things formal and as brief as possible, but not let them into your personal life, then that is prudent.

 

I don't think the concept of forgiveness enters into a parent/child relationship when the parent refuses to admit s/he was wrong, refuses to change, and keeps exhibiting the same behavior towards the child.  A parent's behavior over their child's entire childhood is ONLY the parent's responsibility, never the child's.  The parent is supposed to be the mature, reasonable, adult in those years, and if they have not been, it is not up to the child to assume the parental role, even after the child is an adult.

 

A lot of people with sub-standard parents or family simply create a new "family" from their friends, and that can work well for them.  My dad, for instance, was abandoned by his own dad way back in 1936, and was raised by his single mom (in a time when single-parent households were very much not the norm).  When he was in high school, he began working at the corner gas station and he became friends with the older owner of the station, "Buddy."  He said Buddy became the father he never had, taught him how to repair engines and become a mechanic, and was there for him during the end of his high school years, and for some years after.  Perhaps you can find your own "Buddy" in your life?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ amateur,

 

I can see how your ex being honest with you helps you to move on. Even though it's not a formal apology, at least it helps give you some closure. In a way, since he admitted that it was his fault and not yours also kind of works in the place of an apology. I would appreciate hearing that from my parents. My mom just blames my dad, and my dad blames me and everyone else. I'm really glad you guys were able to get past everything, even thought it hurt at first. I think this could be a big reason why I can't get over my dad and the things he did. He still blames me to this day for our broken relationship. I am so tired of my family members insinuating that the blame for problems in the family is due to me. My mom makes me feel like I am just making problems for her all the time and my grandparents always discreetly admonish me and tell me to forgive. 

 

I absolutely agree about the parents being held to a higher standard and that they are responsible for the relationship with their child. My dad always made maintaining our relationship MY responsibility, and he expected me to love him no matter how badly he treated me. He would get so mad that I was afraid of him and that I didn't want to be around him and then he would just yell at me and make it worse. My mom made me into a mini adult by relying on me like I was her mother. I wrote both of them letters a long time ago telling them my feelings about all this. My dad said 'hope you get through your problems' and my mom was apologetic, but she never makes much change in her life. She still puts herself first and isn't there for me emotionally. She just shuts me out when I'm in need. -____- I don't know how I'll ever have a good relationship with any of them. 

 

I am so over family. I love them, but they make me feel so unhappy because they are all in denial and they never admit their faults. No one wants to accept any blame for anything and I end up being the scapegoat. I can't even talk to my brother because he still always expresses so many negative judgements on me. I have friends, and in the past I have treated them like they were my family. The problem I've run into there is that my friends all have their own family and do not want to take me on as part of theirs. My friends are willing to be there for me to an extent, but they still want to go home to their separate lives and not deal with me when I'm desperate. I really don't know where to turn for family. It's the thing I need most, but I just can't find it anywhere.  

 

This site is nice, but it doesn't really replace the absence I feel. I thought I had found family in my ex, but he still put his family first and made me do all the sacrificing so he wouldn't have to disrupt anything in his life. Ugh... If I could find a "Buddy," that would be so helpful. I've had some older people in my life who have helped me along the way, but I had to let one go due to her taking advantage of me through making me responsible for her kids. The other person also had many other responsibilities and is also very religious. I'm kind of scared to try to create new family with other people because I've been let down so many times by other people not being there for me like a real family. Sometimes I feel like I'll always be alone and have no one to trust or rely on. Hate it. :/ 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The concept of Christian forgiveness was one of the final straws that led to my deconversion.  While going through my divorce I was hounded by everyone that I had to forgive him or I would become a bitter lonely woman who would never find another man.  My ex was emotionally abusive, cheated, and basically had a second life that he had hidden from me.  He would act sorry and say he would change, but he never stopped his behavior.  How could I forgive him when he would just use that as acceptance of his behavior.  What he had done would never be right and I would never accept it.

 

My head was in a really bad place during this, and I searched the bible for anything on how to forgive.  I didn't want to live with that hatred.  I found Luke 17:3 "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them"  I felt so justified!  Repentance isn't just saying sorry, it is honestly trying to change and he hadn't done that.  So even the bible says I don't have to forgive him.....  It was when I realized the mental gymnastics that I was going through to rationalize a natural feeling that I realized how wrong the whole concept is.

 

I am lucky that I don't have to deal with him often, but on the occasions that he remembers we had a child together I try to be civil.  I have found that I no longer strive for forgiveness, instead my goal is indifference.  What he did is in the past, it cannot be undone. That doesn't mean I have to let it affect my future.  And letting go of that anger does not mean I accept or condone what he did.  I have moved on and go most days without any thought of him crossing my mind. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

This site is nice, but it doesn't really replace the absence I feel. I thought I had found family in my ex, but he still put his family first and made me do all the sacrificing so he wouldn't have to disrupt anything in his life. Ugh... If I could find a "Buddy," that would be so helpful. I've had some older people in my life who have helped me along the way, but I had to let one go due to her taking advantage of me through making me responsible for her kids. The other person also had many other responsibilities and is also very religious. I'm kind of scared to try to create new family with other people because I've been let down so many times by other people not being there for me like a real family. Sometimes I feel like I'll always be alone and have no one to trust or rely on. Hate it. :/

Well, you always will be alone to a certain extent. No one will look out for your interests ahead of theirs. That is a given. Its upto you to defend your rights and stick up for yourself and set boundaries about what you do and don't find acceptable.

 

I had trouble with this when I deconverted and expected too much from others. That kind of Christian dependence, expecting someone to be able to predict and cater for your every emotion, need and whim like Jesus wasn't mentally healthy and should never be done.

 

What I have found is that some people are able to accommodate in certain ways, and others, well in other ways. So I have had to extend my circles, so various interests and parts of myself can get expressed.

 

I'm sorry about your childhood. Everyone needs a sense of belonging, and there are no easy answers for this. But you have to be reasonable and be able to put your personal needs aside to a certain extent and see people what are offering in a relationship. Relationships are always about exhange and give and take. The other side also have needs that have to be met.

 

If that woman wanted her kids to be looked after, but she was also there for you (of course I'm just saying... she really could have been exploitative) and gave you something in return, would that be a bad thing? It sounds from your thread you are expecting some sort of altruistic giving and sacrifice. That never happens. Not even in the best families. There are always expectations that need to be met in return for any sort of giving that requires real effort. Tis' human nature.

 

It sounds like your family was most definitely subpar, but also that you are seeing too much in what a good family is all about? What you are after sounds a bit imaginary. Sometimes I think we all feel like this. But then you also have to be realistic and see what is on offer, what you can develop. It needs effort and you will almost always have to settle.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The concept of Christian forgiveness was one of the final straws that led to my deconversion.  While going through my divorce I was hounded by everyone that I had to forgive him or I would become a bitter lonely woman who would never find another man.  My ex was emotionally abusive, cheated, and basically had a second life that he had hidden from me.  He would act sorry and say he would change, but he never stopped his behavior.  How could I forgive him when he would just use that as acceptance of his behavior.  What he had done would never be right and I would never accept it.

 

My head was in a really bad place during this, and I searched the bible for anything on how to forgive.  I didn't want to live with that hatred.  I found Luke 17:3 "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them"  I felt so justified!  Repentance isn't just saying sorry, it is honestly trying to change and he hadn't done that.  So even the bible says I don't have to forgive him.....  It was when I realized the mental gymnastics that I was going through to rationalize a natural feeling that I realized how wrong the whole concept is.

 

I am lucky that I don't have to deal with him often, but on the occasions that he remembers we had a child together I try to be civil.  I have found that I no longer strive for forgiveness, instead my goal is indifference.  What he did is in the past, it cannot be undone. That doesn't mean I have to let it affect my future.  And letting go of that anger does not mean I accept or condone what he did.  I have moved on and go most days without any thought of him crossing my mind.

 

I can relate a lot to what you're saying about the mental gymnastics you went through with your ex and how everyone responded to you after the divorce. That's similar to how everyone spoke to me when my parents divorced, and now every time I put more distance between myself and my family. It nice to know that I don't necessarily have to forgive. How interesting that you found a bible verse to support this! Thanks for sharing your experience!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a Christian I held a grudge my entire life against a family member who had behaved badly.

 

When I became an atheist I figured out that my family member had changed and I figured out a way to patch things up.

 

We are good now and our relationship is healthy and useful.  I would call that real forgiveness.

 

However it wouldn't have happened if the bad behavior had continued.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, you always will be alone to a certain extent. No one will look out for your interests ahead of theirs. That is a given. Its upto you to defend your rights and stick up for yourself and set boundaries about what you do and don't find acceptable.

I had trouble with this when I deconverted and expected too much from others. That kind of Christian dependence, expecting someone to be able to predict and cater for your every emotion, need and whim like Jesus wasn't mentally healthy and should never be done.

What I have found is that some people are able to accommodate in certain ways, and others, well in other ways. So I have had to extend my circles, so various interests and parts of myself can get expressed.

I'm sorry about your childhood. Everyone needs a sense of belonging, and there are no easy answers for this. But you have to be reasonable and be able to put your personal needs aside to a certain extent and see people what are offering in a relationship. Relationships are always about exhange and give and take. The other side also have needs that have to be met.

If that woman wanted her kids to be looked after, but she was also there for you (of course I'm just saying... she really could have been exploitative) and gave you something in return, would that be a bad thing? It sounds from your thread you are expecting some sort of altruistic giving and sacrifice. That never happens. Not even in the best families. There are always expectations that need to be met in return for any sort of giving that requires real effort. Tis' human nature.

It sounds like your family was most definitely subpar, but also that you are seeing too much in what a good family is all about? What you are after sounds a bit imaginary. Sometimes I think we all feel like this. But then you also have to be realistic and see what is on offer, what you can develop. It needs effort and you will almost always have to settle.

Hmm. This could be possible. I don't really know what a healthy family looks like so my ideas are based off of what I see in other families and how I wish things would be in my own. I know that I have expected more than my mom can give me, and I'm still trying to accept that literally all she can do is provide for me financially. I am thankful for that, but I wish I had a mom that I could talk to and ask advice from once in a while. Is that too much to ask from a mom? I guess for my mom it is...

 

I don't expect people to give me anything for free in life, I know that's not how it works. I'm always willing to give a lot to a fault and that has gotten me into situations where I'm easier to be taken advantage of in the past. Since quitting xtianity I've been working on boundaries and that's one reason I let go of the older friend with children. I was willing to help her out, and I did help her a lot with her kids, but it was more that I was able to take on at the time. I do appreciate her help also, but I think I was feeling drained by a lot of things then. It felt unbalanced.

 

I actually like being alone to a degree because I'm used to it and also introverted, and I'm aware that loneliness is part of the human condition. However, feeling like I have no support system has been difficult. I think with my family I definitely do have to settle because that's just the way they are, but I had hopes that in the future I could actually find people who wouldn't disappear or back away when I'm in a difficult situation. I'm coming to terms with the fact that I can really only rely on myself and trust myself to take care of me, while I also still have that desire to have family that I can trust. Maybe TV and movies are lying to me about friends and family, I really don't know, but I find it hard to accept that me is all I've got.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.