Forgiveness

[sparklingphoenix]

As a Christian I held a grudge my entire life against a family member who had behaved badly.

 

When I became an atheist I figured out that my family member had changed and I figured out a way to patch things up.

 

We are good now and our relationship is healthy and useful.  I would call that real forgiveness.

 

However it wouldn't have happened if the bad behavior had continued.

From what I keep reading from everyone here, it sounds like forgiveness is a two way street. The wrong doer first has to make amends in some way and make a change, then the hurt person can let go and move on. The burden of forgiveness is placed on the hurt person in Christianity, but I'm seeing that this is wrong. Forgiveness seems more like a natural (maybe slow) response to the wrong doer repenting and changing. Over the years I get snippets of info on my dad and I can tell that he's no different, so I continue my no contact strategy.

[mymistake]

 

From what I keep reading from everyone here, it sounds like forgiveness is a two way street. The wrong doer first has to make amends in some way and make a change, then the hurt person can let go and move on. 

 

 

I'm glad you brought this up.  I guess I worded my last post wrong.  I was trying to illustrate a restored relationship.  However the way I see forgiveness is something the hurt person can do

 

without any participation from the offending party.  In life the vast majority of abusers will never care, never change and never offer closure.  Forgiving someone who is still abusive should

 

not restore the relationship.  You don't want to trust someone like that.  Don't put yourself in harm's way.  Forgiveness only benefits the person doing the forgiving.  The forgiven party doesn't

 

even need to be informed.  

 

 

 

I also have an in-law who is an all around jerk.  I have cut him out of my life because I want to protect my kids from the steady flow of train wrecks coming from this in-law of mine.  I have also

 

forgiven him.  I would never tell him that I have forgiven him.  It is none of his business.  He has not changed.  I've watched his behavior and it is consistently bad.  I'm not going to restore a

 

relationship with him.  When I say I have forgiven him that means I acknowledge the crap he put me through, I recognize that it was bad but I'm not going to relive it or let that bother me today.

[wyson]

 

Well, you always will be alone to a certain extent. No one will look out for your interests ahead of theirs. That is a given. Its upto you to defend your rights and stick up for yourself and set boundaries about what you do and don't find acceptable.

I had trouble with this when I deconverted and expected too much from others. That kind of Christian dependence, expecting someone to be able to predict and cater for your every emotion, need and whim like Jesus wasn't mentally healthy and should never be done.

What I have found is that some people are able to accommodate in certain ways, and others, well in other ways. So I have had to extend my circles, so various interests and parts of myself can get expressed.

I'm sorry about your childhood. Everyone needs a sense of belonging, and there are no easy answers for this. But you have to be reasonable and be able to put your personal needs aside to a certain extent and see people what are offering in a relationship. Relationships are always about exhange and give and take. The other side also have needs that have to be met.

If that woman wanted her kids to be looked after, but she was also there for you (of course I'm just saying... she really could have been exploitative) and gave you something in return, would that be a bad thing? It sounds from your thread you are expecting some sort of altruistic giving and sacrifice. That never happens. Not even in the best families. There are always expectations that need to be met in return for any sort of giving that requires real effort. Tis' human nature.

It sounds like your family was most definitely subpar, but also that you are seeing too much in what a good family is all about? What you are after sounds a bit imaginary. Sometimes I think we all feel like this. But then you also have to be realistic and see what is on offer, what you can develop. It needs effort and you will almost always have to settle.

Hmm. This could be possible. I don't really know what a healthy family looks like so my ideas are based off of what I see in other families and how I wish things would be in my own.

 

I think with my family I definitely do have to settle because that's just the way they are, but I had hopes that in the future I could actually find people who wouldn't disappear or back away when I'm in a difficult situation. I'm coming to terms with the fact that I can really only rely on myself and trust myself to take care of me, while I also still have that desire to have family that I can trust. Maybe TV and movies are lying to me about friends and family, I really don't know, but I find it hard to accept that me is all I've got.

I haven't see a single Hollywood movie or TV show that has a realistic depiction of family.

 

And also, people generally don't air their dirty laundry in public, and you can never see what a relationship is like from the outside.

 

From what I have seen disfunction in families is the norm. I could just list reams and reams of disfunction I have personally witnessed / heard / been embroiled in.

 

My extended family is solidly middle class, almost everyone went to an reputable university, have professional jobs etc.

 

A couple of things I have seen include:

 

An uncle, deciding to break off his marriage and shack up with a prostitute and introducing said prostitute to my cousins telling them all that she is his new life focus and that he would cut them free, basically disowning them. Upto that point, he funded college educations around the world and associated homes etc. All were pulled from under their feet.

 

Another uncle who punched out his daughter (my cousin) for disobedience. They have every material convenience you could ever want, a beautiful home, and my god the cars in that family. He funded college for them, looked after all their material needs etc. etc.

 

I could carry on and on but all these families look really successful, really happy, like they are living the dream. Really? I think you can imagine getting punched out or dumped for a prostitute would create a certain amount of antagonism.

 

With my close friends, when I delve into their family histories there are all sorts of horrors, all sorts of pain and disappointment. And no, you can't tell from the outside. So no you aren't alone. And no you can't believe the things you see on TV or in the movies.

 

For almost everyone I know, family presents very significant challenges.

 

Actually, celebrity gossip presents the most realistic depictions of family life. When I was young, I thought celebrities were super disfunctional. Nope. They are just people, like the rest of us trying to make their way through life. Its just their dirty laundry is discovered and aired for all to see.

[amateur]

Sparklingphoenix, here are some realities I've found over the years:

 

1.  Boundaries are good.  It sounds like you have a good grasp of the give-and-take of friendship and boundaries.

 

2.  There aren't any perfect families, whether it's parent/child, a marriage relationship, siblings, or extended family.  Everybody has some faults/quirks that butt against each other.  But basic respect, kindness, helpfulness, and caring the majority of the time should be expected from family.  Sometimes you have to turn a blind eye to a certain behavior or incident (I'm talking small things, not abuse).  But nobody should ever be the family scapegoat, and all adults should recognize their own responsibility in situations and not just consistently blame others.  The very best relationships still have irritations, anger, disagreements, and minor dysfunction, and great relationships are pretty rare.  

 

3.  It's okay to back away from toxic people and family members.  It's okay to keep a respectful distance and a polite relationship if that will keep you sane.  It's okay to get counseling to help sort out a bad childhood.  A bad childhood is the parent's fault, not the child's.

 

4.  When I had bad moments at my worst after the divorce and I was severely depressed, I could always count on the fact that when I desperately needed a friend to talk to that I could not reach anybody.  I'd make five phone calls and get five message boxes.  I'd go on-line and nobody was around to message.  At first, this was especially depressing, then after a while I realized it was kind of funny.  I had to learn to have a back-up plan for those times, where I relied only on myself.  Over time, I learned coping strategies to deal with those times.  

 

5.  I've had friends with horrible parents.  This caused a lot of confusion and anger and "why won't my mom/dad be nice to me?" and accepting blame for things that were never their fault through high school and college.  It's been 30+ years since I've been out of high school, and I have some connection to some of those people still, so we're all in our 50's.  The ones that have done best with their lives at some point accepted that their parents were flawed people who had tried the best they could and failed, and either cut off contact with the parents or maintain a polite distance with them.  The ones that are still struggling in their lives are STILL trying to be loved by their mom and/or dad and are STILL trying to be the perfect child so their parents will love them.  It will not happen and you do not want to be in your 50's with failed relationships, bad relationships with your own children, failed job situations because you end up projecting the same issues onto bosses that you had with your parents, AND still have your parents treat you at 53 the same as they did when you were 13.  I have seen this over the past 30 years.  Again, I stress, the bad parenting you received was NEVER your fault and you have no responsibility for your parents' actions during your childhood and adulthood.  You have full responsibility for your own actions as an adult.  

 

6.  And, by the way, in all the friends I mentioned in 5, NOT ONE of their parents ever apologized, changed, or acknowledged that how they raised their children was wrong.  NOT ONE.  Some of these parents are now in their 90's and are still miserable people still blaming everybody else for their problems, or are still people who ride roughshod over everybody in their lives and disregard other people's feelings.  Some of these parents have died, and the children that still wanted mom and/or dad to love them are STILL tortured by the ghosts of those parents.  Please don't let this happen to you!  

 

7.  Even in a good family, like I had, things are never perfect.  I had a wonderful, caring, loving, funny mother and we were very close.  But she died when I was 18.  She never saw me start college, never met either man I married, never met my kids, never even saw me move out of the house and become an independent young adult.  Life is never perfect for anybody.

[wyson]

Sparklingphoenix, here are some realities I've found over the years:

 

1. Boundaries are good. It sounds like you have a good grasp of the give-and-take of friendship and boundaries.

 

2. There aren't any perfect families, whether it's parent/child, a marriage relationship, siblings, or extended family. Everybody has some faults/quirks that butt against each other. But basic respect, kindness, helpfulness, and caring the majority of the time should be expected from family. Sometimes you have to turn a blind eye to a certain behavior or incident (I'm talking small things, not abuse). But nobody should ever be the family scapegoat, and all adults should recognize their own responsibility in situations and not just consistently blame others. The very best relationships still have irritations, anger, disagreements, and minor dysfunction, and great relationships are pretty rare.

 

3. It's okay to back away from toxic people and family members. It's okay to keep a respectful distance and a polite relationship if that will keep you sane. It's okay to get counseling to help sort out a bad childhood. A bad childhood is the parent's fault, not the child's.

 

4. When I had bad moments at my worst after the divorce and I was severely depressed, I could always count on the fact that when I desperately needed a friend to talk to that I could not reach anybody. I'd make five phone calls and get five message boxes. I'd go on-line and nobody was around to message. At first, this was especially depressing, then after a while I realized it was kind of funny. I had to learn to have a back-up plan for those times, where I relied only on myself. Over time, I learned coping strategies to deal with those times.

 

5. I've had friends with horrible parents. This caused a lot of confusion and anger and "why won't my mom/dad be nice to me?" and accepting blame for things that were never their fault through high school and college. It's been 30+ years since I've been out of high school, and I have some connection to some of those people still, so we're all in our 50's. The ones that have done best with their lives at some point accepted that their parents were flawed people who had tried the best they could and failed, and either cut off contact with the parents or maintain a polite distance with them. The ones that are still struggling in their lives are STILL trying to be loved by their mom and/or dad and are STILL trying to be the perfect child so their parents will love them. It will not happen and you do not want to be in your 50's with failed relationships, bad relationships with your own children, failed job situations because you end up projecting the same issues onto bosses that you had with your parents, AND still have your parents treat you at 53 the same as they did when you were 13. I have seen this over the past 30 years. Again, I stress, the bad parenting you received was NEVER your fault and you have no responsibility for your parents' actions during your childhood and adulthood. You have full responsibility for your own actions as an adult.

 

6. And, by the way, in all the friends I mentioned in 5, NOT ONE of their parents ever apologized, changed, or acknowledged that how they raised their children was wrong. NOT ONE. Some of these parents are now in their 90's and are still miserable people still blaming everybody else for their problems, or are still people who ride roughshod over everybody in their lives and disregard other people's feelings. Some of these parents have died, and the children that still wanted mom and/or dad to love them are STILL tortured by the ghosts of those parents. Please don't let this happen to you!

 

7. Even in a good family, like I had, things are never perfect. I had a wonderful, caring, loving, funny mother and we were very close. But she died when I was 18. She never saw me start college, never met either man I married, never met my kids, never even saw me move out of the house and become an independent young adult. Life is never perfect for anybody.

This is a great post.

 

I would add, you can make your own family in the image that you want. Give your kids and husband what you couldn't have, but don't try to do the impossible by trying to change the family you have now. Accept they suck, deal with it in a way you find appropriate, even if it means letting them go.

[sparklingphoenix]

These are some really great responses, and so helpful and valuable to me. Amateur, the things you said resonate with me a lot and I have been trying to figure out what it is that makes people ruin the rest of their lives over their terrible childhoods so that I don't make the same mistake. I have to leave my computer for a while today, but I'll respond more when I get back to everyone!

[GraphicsGuy]

My ex was emotionally abusive, cheated, and basically had a second life that he had hidden from me.  He would act sorry and say he would change, but he never stopped his behavior.  How could I forgive him when he would just use that as acceptance of his behavior.  What he had done would never be right and I would never accept it.

Unfortunately, I was often this way when I was married, Thrive and I completely blame religion/church for the way I acted. I never realized that my true self was locked way deep down inside of me and was always struggling to get out, but the weight of religion and who I THOUGHT I was supposed to be kept my true self suppressed. The problem with suppression is that things leak out in bad ways.

 

Most of my bad habits/behaviors dropped away once I was honest with myself and others and left religion and started living the life I wanted.

 

I know it's a little off topic, but it really hit close to home for me. I just feel that your ex probably was genuinely sorry for the way he was acting because he probably is warring with himself on the inside and until he is honest with himself (and with everyone else) he will never be happy.

 

2. There aren't any perfect families, whether it's parent/child, a marriage relationship, siblings, or extended family. Everybody has some faults/quirks that butt against each other. But basic respect, kindness, helpfulness, and caring the majority of the time should be expected from family. Sometimes you have to turn a blind eye to a certain behavior or incident (I'm talking small things, not abuse). But nobody should ever be the family scapegoat, and all adults should recognize their own responsibility in situations and not just consistently blame others. The very best relationships still have irritations, anger, disagreements, and minor dysfunction, and great relationships are pretty rare.......

Really great post, amateur.

 

I will never say that my parents weren't good parents, but perhaps they weren't GREAT parents. We were all stuck in our own little worlds and it wasn't until I left religion that I could see how much my parents struggled to understand their own place in the world and their emotions, etc.

 

I have a great relationship with them now because I can be brutally honest with them about my feelings and I expect them to be honest with me. We don't sugarcoat things and we admit that life is difficult.

 

I feel that's the only way to have good relationships. Surface-level, airy-fairy cliches just don't allow for anything real to develop.

[EyesOpened]

To me forgiveness is a leash created by religion.

 

If someone wrongs me in a really bad way, who or what says i even need to forgive them? What would that accomplish? I agree with what MM was saying about not putting yourself in harms way.

 

This is only my opinion but i think following your instinct and staying clear of the abusive person is a better alternative than forgiveness.

 

When i was a Xtian, i would go out of my way to do something good for a person who wronged me, so i would "use love to beat evil". This sounds really crazy to me now when i look back at it. I was such a fool to think that would ever work.

 

I have learned to not forgive certain people in my life and not feel guilty about it. It is a very liberating feeling.

[milesaway]

The xtian take on forgiveness is bullshit. What they did was they hijacked a universal concept and they appropriated it as a tool in their arsenal to blame the victim and chastise them for their perfectly legitimate feelings. 

 

I think it's best to define forgiveness for yourself, and create your own criteria for it. If there are times when forgiveness never happens, then so be it. You don't owe someone who's screwed you over a damn thing. 

[bruisermel]

So glad you started this threat, SP, both for you and for me There is some great food for thought and feedback here.

 

Having been raised in a toxic environment as well this concept of "forgiveness" has probably been the biggest stumbling block in my "recovery."

 

Logically I agree with what so many posters here have said. I think quick forgiveness (i.e wipe the slate clean, dive right back in head first to a relationship and if you don't YOU are in the wrong for holding a GRUDGE) is a christian and possibly cultural concept that is almost seen as virtuous--the quicker and bigger you forgive (i.e the victims who make the headlines forgiving the person in prison who shot them) the holier or better you are. It's to be admired. I think that's garbage.

 

Yet I don't live that way! My dad was TOXIC growing up...I'd love to have nothing to do with him. I feel nothing for him...yet I haven't cut him off and I act fake around him b/c I still can't wrap my head around being "the bad guy." Logically I know I'm not the "bad guy" but in my uber christian familys' eyes I am (tsk tsk she just can't forgive and forget like jesus--shame on her) and for some reason that still matters to me...grrrrr

 

Anyway, I hope you find a lot of helpful info here. I suggest a website called Outofthefog.net. It can be so helpful in coming to terms with the toxic upbringing, getting insight into how it effected you and ways to make yourself mentally healthier/stronger (it has helped me quite a bit).  You may want to look up C-PTSD as well. 

[slave2six]

I dunno. To me, obligatory forgiveness is a strange idea.

 

The closest that I can get to it is, "OK, that person did X. He/she apologized and seemed to be sincere. I'll accept the apology and i won't keep bringing up the past. If they behave well in the future, great. If not, I am not obligated to keep them as a friend (or maintain a relationship just because we're related)."

 

If you know someone is an asshole and they have no intention of changing, cut them off. Life is too short for that nonsense. But if they make an effort to be at peace with you, that's often best.

 

Still, you don't owe anyone anything. If you don't want to forgive them, whatever. Your choice. 

 

However, if the issue is eating you up inside, then i recommend either trying to come to a peaceful resolution or cut them off completely. In the end, it is your mental health that matters most.