Further Examining The Problem Of Hell

[NoOne]

Christians believe that you must accept Jesus as your lord and savior before you die or else you will go to hell, which is eternal suffering basically. Very few Christians have a problem with this selfish, sadistic line of thinking.

 

PROBLEM 1: Not all Christians deserve eternal paradise, and not all non-Christians deserve eternal suffering.

Contrary to some people's beliefs, Hitler was a Christian. In his book (Mein Kempf? Is that correct lol?), he said something about how it was God's will for Jews to endure pain and torture. Along with that, the KKK was also Christian. There have been pro-lifers who have bombed abortion clinics and killed people in the name of the Christian god. Because they were Christian and accepted Jesus, according to most Christians' logic, they are in heaven. However, Anne Frank, who was well-known for her diary and having been forced to hide because she was a Jew during the time of the Holocaust, is in hell. She didn't do anything wrong, in fact, she was more of a brave victim than anything else...but she wasn't a Christian. There was a Hindu man who got killed because someone thought he was a Muslim (this happened right after 9/11). I remember reading an article in English about his friend who was an Egyptian activist. She actually mentioned him and talked about what a good person he was. He interviewer knew him too and also said he was a good person. So despite being described as a good person and supposedly doing nothing wrong, he still became a victim of a senseless hate crime. Because he was Hindu, God did not have mercy to him and sent him to hell.

Does that sound fair? Should bad Christians be rewarded and good and decent non-Christians be punished? All for a religion?

 

PROBLEM 2: Eternal suffering is an unfair "punishment" or afterlife considering the ways some people have died or will die.

I don't know why I did this in May, but earlier I watched a video about 9/11 jumpers. They were the victims who were in the higher floors of the towers and chose to jump (obviously resulting in death) instead of burning up or suffocating due to the fires and smoke. Although all the deaths on 9/11 were ruled as homocides (with the exception of the terrorists obviously), these jumpers technically did commit suicide. Suicide is a ticket to hell according to Christianity, as you didn't value the life God gave you. So, these victims who just thought that day would be a normal day and were essentially screwed over in one of the worst ways possible, are in hell because they chose a quick, painless death over a long, grueling one? There was no way they were going to survive, it was either jump or burn. Hell is not a just afterlife, if there are afterlifes (I do believe there are, not heaven or hell though), for these people because they had no good choices and they were victims of a mass tragedy. Or maybe let's think about cancer patients who committed suicide either through their own methods or with the aid of a doctor. Is it so wrong that they didn't "treasure" the life God gave them, you know, one riddled with an incurable and terminal disease? They should have suffered instead of ending their own lives on their own terms? Is hell still okay now?

 

PROBLEM 3: Hell disproves the idea of a loving and just God.

If God loves all his children, why does he feel the need to send a good 67% of them to hell? He still loves you, but you're going to bake in a eternal flame forever? That's how someone shows their love? I'm not a mother as I am only a freshman, but if one of my kids ticked me off, I would never punish them by setting them on fire and then actually say "oh I'm only doing this as an example of my love". That's pure bullshit. (But I guess God and me have different standards lol!!) If someone gives you the ultimatum to believe in them or go a place where you will be tortured for all of eternity, then that's manipulative and abusive because you will naturally be struck with fear and you will want to choose the "less painful" option even if it doesn't make any sense at all. If God was really loving, he wouldn't force that upon his own children and wouldn't have created a place like hell. But he did...what does that say about him?

 

These are the 3 key points within the problem of hell theory that really convinced me the most. I'm always parroting these, but now that I analyzed and really broke them down, more people will see where I'm coming from. I doubt any Christians here will actually try to understand but all I can do is try, right

[mymistake]

Nice work.  Hell is a scary story designed to control people.

[sdelsolray]

Three good points.

[duderonomy]

It's Mein Kampf, TC. Everything you wrote about Hell is spot-on to a T IMHO. Very good stuff. 

 

My mom used to tell a joke (I imagine a lot of people have heard it) about a guy that was about to be hanged. They asked him if he had any last words, and he said, "Yes, this will certainly teach me a lesson!".

 

Really, what would an eternity of Hellfire and Brimstone teach anybody? What good would it do? No one gets out, so it wouldn't matter if it changed anyone for the better. It's a doctrine of infinite suffering for a finite wrong.

People are subjected to it because "God" gets pissed and just can't say "I forgive you", even if they haven't done anything wrong beyond being born.

 

It's a sick concept and I'm ashamed I ever believed in it.  

[TheOutsider]

The sentiment I've been familiar with is that it's not about what we deserve, it's about grace. If we got only what we deserve, according to the christian beliefs, we would all be in hell because humans deserve nothing else at all. Period.

 

The only reason anyone gets into heaven according to christianity is because they are vouched for by Jesus. It doesn't matter what you have done or what you deserve, if your not with Jesus it's hell for you.

 

Of course I grew up in a particularly firebrand flavor of the southern baptist denomination, so there is that...

The joy and awe displayed at the most cruel and sadistic acts of their god, and how much they are celebrated as great things to be admired, is just disturbing to me at this point...

[qadeshet]

Any god who would sentence even one of his children to eternal punishment is a cruel and vengeful monster. I would jump into the fire rather than serve such a tyrant.

[Travi]

I try to explain this to people who continue to worry for my mortal soul since I'm an atheist. I feel like I'm a pretty good person for the most part, and try to do right in everything - yet, because I turned my back on this god, I'll be burning for all of eternity.

Sounds grand, where do I sign up?

[Guest Furball]

I would jump into the fire rather than serve such a tyrant.

 

He won't even let you jump in yourself.He has to 'cast' you into the lake of fire himself. He would never deprive himself of such a joyous event as picking us sinners up and "casting' us into hell himself.    

 

 

 

 

 

[NoOne]

Thanks everyone! I'm just really waiting for a Christian to come across this, if they haven't already, and get butthurt pulling out the "but you refused his love!" card.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Spending an eternity of compulsory worship toward a god who would have thrown me into hell for nothing more than exhibiting personal integrity and intellectual honesty, would, in itself, be hell for me.  If the outcome is essentially the same, I'd just as soon be true to myself.

[bornagainathiest]

Good work Creep.

 

But when (or if) one of our 'resident' Christians responds to you, they may well try and refute your arguments like this.

 

1.

Nobody deserves eternal paradise in heaven.  Neither the Christian nor the non-Christian can earn entry to heaven by their own goodness, good deeds and by living a good life.  That is known as salvation by works and is not a part of Biblical Christianity.  All people (Christian and non-Christian) are deserving of eternal torment in hell because all have sinned.  So the only way out of this impossible predicament is salvation by faith - faith in Jesus Christ. 

 

His sacrifice on the cross was the necessary payment for the sins of the whole world.  He took our guilt upon himself and paid the price so that whoever believes in him will not have to suffer the due punishment - which is eternal separation from God in the flames of hell.  Therefore, whoever believes in Jesus can freely enter heaven with their sins forgiven and washed away.

 

This is the standard Christian answer to the question of who deserves heaven and who doesn't.   Nobody does.  But the free gift of entry into heaven (via salvation by faith) is open to all.  So if anyone doesn't accept that gift then they are sending themselves to hell by their own free choice.

 

2.

What option does God have when it comes to the ultimate fate of those who refuse his free gift of eternal paradise?  The circumstances of their life, their suffering and their death (no matter how terrible or agonizing) cannot be used to mitigate the fact that they never chose to believe in Jesus.  So God is forced to respect their freely-made choice and send them to the place they chose to go to.  If they chose Jesus, they go to heaven.  If they didn't, they don't.  God's respect for their free choice overrides anything and everything else.

 

3.

Hell doesn't disprove the idea of a loving God.  That's because he loves everyone so much that he respects their freely-made choices.  Even if these choices deny them entry into heaven.  If he intervened in any way to influence their choices, then he wouldn't be acting in a loving way towards them.  He would love everyone to save themselves from hell by believing in Jesus - but he can't and won't make that decision for anyone.  Nor will he influence their decision.  They have to make it themselves.

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

[bornagainathiest]

Creep,

 

Please note that I was playing Devil's Advocate in my previous post.  These are not my beliefs.  But it's quite likely that these are the beliefs of some of the Christians in this forum.  Please also note that those three Christian arguments are deeply flawed and totally undermined by contradictions within the Bible itself.  A classic example (which exposes the falsity of the need to believe in only Jesus to enter heaven) can be read in Genesis 5 : 24 and Hebrews 11 : 5 & 6.

 

Genesis 5 : 24, NIV.

"Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."

 

Hebrews 11 : 5 & 6, NIV.

"By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death:  'He could not be found because God had taken him away.'  For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.  And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him."

 

See the problem, Creep?

Elsewhere in the Bible it says that salvation (and entry into heaven) is only possible by faith in Jesus.  His is the only name in heaven thru which salvation comes.  Nobody is saved by faith in God the Father.  Nor by faith in God the Holy Spirit.  This is because neither of those persons of the Trinity became the sin sacrifice that Jesus did.  The sin sacrifice that gives salvation.  So calling on the names of the Father or the Holy Spirit cannot bring salvation.  Nor can having faith in either of them.  Only faith in the salvation-bringing sacrifice of Jesus can give you the reward of heaven.

 

Therefore, in Genesis 5 : 24 we have the anti-salvational scenario of Enoch being taken up to heaven by an act of faith in a God who definitely wasn't Jesus  - thousands of years before Jesus Christ, the salvation-bringer, was born of the virgin Mary in Bethlehem!

.

.

.

For a Christian to claim that Enoch actually met Jesus in the book of Genesis is to add to scripture.  

 

For a Christian to claim that the OT God revealed the knowledge of Jesus to Enoch is to also add to scripture.  

 

For a Christian to claim that Enoch's faith enabled him to bypass the need for a savior (Jesus), is heresy.    

.

.

.

It's an unworkable mess that Christians usually resolve by faith, Creep.

 

Blind faith, that is.

.

.

.

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NoOne]

Hey BAA!

Thanks for writing. It's really odd...the Christian arguments obviously don't add up AT ALL in my opinion, but I'm still going to have to find the right words to use in a rebuttal. As someone who doesn't believe in the Christian god, the Biblical and theological stuff doesn't work on me and still sound so stupid, but I still have to think about this.

 

Just give me some time here...

[Travi]

Hey BAA!

Thanks for writing. It's really odd...the Christian arguments obviously don't add up AT ALL in my opinion, but I'm still going to have to find the right words to use in a rebuttal. As someone who doesn't believe in the Christian god, the Biblical and theological stuff doesn't work on me and still sound so stupid, but I still have to think about this.

 

Just give me some time here...a

The Christian arguments make no sense period, so they never will add up. Anytime someone can say with a straight face that you will be thrown into eternal torment and despair just because you don't believe in a god is beyond help unless they start thinking for themselves. Religion is the ultimate control in this world, as long as there is the threat of eternal pain - people will continue to regurgitate these arguments that BAA outlined.

 

It's really disheartening.

[readyforchange]

Good work Creep.

 

But when (or if) one of our 'resident' Christians responds to you, they may well try and refute your arguments like this.

 

1.

Nobody deserves eternal paradise in heaven.  Neither the Christian nor the non-Christian can earn entry to heaven by their own goodness, good deeds and by living a good life.  That is known as salvation by works and is not a part of Biblical Christianity.  All people (Christian and non-Christian) are deserving of eternal torment in hell because all have sinned.  So the only way out of this impossible predicament is salvation by faith - faith in Jesus Christ. 

 

His sacrifice on the cross was the necessary payment for the sins of the whole world.  He took our guilt upon himself and paid the price so that whoever believes in him will not have to suffer the due punishment - which is eternal separation from God in the flames of hell.  Therefore, whoever believes in Jesus can freely enter heaven with their sins forgiven and washed away.

 

This is the standard Christian answer to the question of who deserves heaven and who doesn't.   Nobody does.  But the free gift of entry into heaven (via salvation by faith) is open to all.  So if anyone doesn't accept that gift then they are sending themselves to hell by their own free choice.

 

2.

What option does God have when it comes to the ultimate fate of those who refuse his free gift of eternal paradise?  The circumstances of their life, their suffering and their death (no matter how terrible or agonizing) cannot be used to mitigate the fact that they never chose to believe in Jesus.  So God is forced to respect their freely-made choice and send them to the place they chose to go to.  If they chose Jesus, they go to heaven.  If they didn't, they don't.  God's respect for their free choice overrides anything and everything else.

 

3.

Hell doesn't disprove the idea of a loving God.  That's because he loves everyone so much that he respects their freely-made choices.  Even if these choices deny them entry into heaven.  If he intervened in any way to influence their choices, then he wouldn't be acting in a loving way towards them.  He would love everyone to save themselves from hell by believing in Jesus - but he can't and won't make that decision for anyone.  Nor will he influence their decision.  They have to make it themselves.

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

 

Hi BAA!  I agree, these are the Christian arguments/rebuttals when it comes to the question of why do "good" people still go to hell.  I recently posted this in the thread titled "Why Didn't God Kill Satan?" here in the Lion's Den, and I think it would apply here as well.  This would be my response on the concept of free will.  I have never discussed this in detail with anyone, but I would be interested in anyone's thoughts - from a Christian perspective, what could be the response?

 

 

This is my take on the free will question, which I'll explain in as a Q/A:  In order to get into heaven, are ALL humans required to make a free-will choice to believe that Jesus died for their sins?  My answer would be no - there are human souls who never made a free-will choice to believe that Jesus died for their sins who are in heaven, and these souls enter heaven on a constant basis.  This is taking into consideration the position that human life begins at the point of conception, and that there is an "age of accountability" to be reached by a human in order to fully comprehend and understand God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.  Personally, I think it is sad and a tragedy if a woman has a miscarriage, or if an infant or young child dies.  At the same time, the souls of those fetuses, infants, or young children, by most Christian perspectives, go to heaven.  I know there are some denominations (I think Calvinists are one) that believe babies must be baptized in order to be saved, but by and large, I think from the vast majority of Christian perspectives, infants and young children (who do not reach an age of accountability) will go to heaven when they die.  To me, if Christianity were true and if God requires humans to make a free-will choice to believe that Jesus died for their sins to in order to enter heaven, then from the time of conception until the age of accountability (let's say the age of 10, for example), it should be impossible for any human to die.  Once God "creates" a human, that human should not die until he or she reaches the age of 10 (or whatever the age of accountability would be)...IF free will is a mandatory requirement for entry into heaven.

 

Then, there are humans who do reach an accountable age or adulthood but who may have been born with mental deficiencies, and this can prevent him/her from understanding or comprehending the who/what/why of religions in general, and Jesus in particular.  When these humans die, I think by most Christians perspectives, their souls will go to heaven.  But as with the young, these humans are not self-aware to the point of making a free-will choice to believe Jesus died for their sins.  Also, you have instances out there still today of people living in more remote or isolated parts of the world who have never heard of Jesus - if they die before ever hearing or learning about Jesus before they die, then I think by most Christian perspectives, their souls will go to heaven. 

 

Bottom line to me:  If God is essentially allowing, on a constant basis, SOME human souls to enter heaven without the need to make a free-will choice about Jesus...why not just allow this for ALL?  If heaven is already populated with perhaps billions of souls, why would God not just create ALL souls directly in heaven in the first place?  If earth is supposedly this fallen, corrupt world after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, then why not just bypass earth and our existence in human bodies altogether?  Especially when God is essentially sending some human souls directly to heaven by default, anyway - without those souls ever being self-aware as humans? 

[bornagainathiest]

 

Good work Creep.

 

But when (or if) one of our 'resident' Christians responds to you, they may well try and refute your arguments like this.

 

1.

Nobody deserves eternal paradise in heaven.  Neither the Christian nor the non-Christian can earn entry to heaven by their own goodness, good deeds and by living a good life.  That is known as salvation by works and is not a part of Biblical Christianity.  All people (Christian and non-Christian) are deserving of eternal torment in hell because all have sinned.  So the only way out of this impossible predicament is salvation by faith - faith in Jesus Christ. 

 

His sacrifice on the cross was the necessary payment for the sins of the whole world.  He took our guilt upon himself and paid the price so that whoever believes in him will not have to suffer the due punishment - which is eternal separation from God in the flames of hell.  Therefore, whoever believes in Jesus can freely enter heaven with their sins forgiven and washed away.

 

This is the standard Christian answer to the question of who deserves heaven and who doesn't.   Nobody does.  But the free gift of entry into heaven (via salvation by faith) is open to all.  So if anyone doesn't accept that gift then they are sending themselves to hell by their own free choice.

 

2.

What option does God have when it comes to the ultimate fate of those who refuse his free gift of eternal paradise?  The circumstances of their life, their suffering and their death (no matter how terrible or agonizing) cannot be used to mitigate the fact that they never chose to believe in Jesus.  So God is forced to respect their freely-made choice and send them to the place they chose to go to.  If they chose Jesus, they go to heaven.  If they didn't, they don't.  God's respect for their free choice overrides anything and everything else.

 

3.

Hell doesn't disprove the idea of a loving God.  That's because he loves everyone so much that he respects their freely-made choices.  Even if these choices deny them entry into heaven.  If he intervened in any way to influence their choices, then he wouldn't be acting in a loving way towards them.  He would love everyone to save themselves from hell by believing in Jesus - but he can't and won't make that decision for anyone.  Nor will he influence their decision.  They have to make it themselves.

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

 

Hi BAA!  I agree, these are the Christian arguments/rebuttals when it comes to the question of why do "good" people still go to hell.  I recently posted this in the thread titled "Why Didn't God Kill Satan?" here in the Lion's Den, and I think it would apply here as well.  This would be my response on the concept of free will.  I have never discussed this in detail with anyone, but I would be interested in anyone's thoughts - from a Christian perspective, what could be the response?

 

 

This is my take on the free will question, which I'll explain in as a Q/A:  In order to get into heaven, are ALL humans required to make a free-will choice to believe that Jesus died for their sins?  My answer would be no - there are human souls who never made a free-will choice to believe that Jesus died for their sins who are in heaven, and these souls enter heaven on a constant basis.  This is taking into consideration the position that human life begins at the point of conception, and that there is an "age of accountability" to be reached by a human in order to fully comprehend and understand God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.  Personally, I think it is sad and a tragedy if a woman has a miscarriage, or if an infant or young child dies.  At the same time, the souls of those fetuses, infants, or young children, by most Christian perspectives, go to heaven.  I know there are some denominations (I think Calvinists are one) that believe babies must be baptized in order to be saved, but by and large, I think from the vast majority of Christian perspectives, infants and young children (who do not reach an age of accountability) will go to heaven when they die.  To me, if Christianity were true and if God requires humans to make a free-will choice to believe that Jesus died for their sins to in order to enter heaven, then from the time of conception until the age of accountability (let's say the age of 10, for example), it should be impossible for any human to die.  Once God "creates" a human, that human should not die until he or she reaches the age of 10 (or whatever the age of accountability would be)...IF free will is a mandatory requirement for entry into heaven.

 

Then, there are humans who do reach an accountable age or adulthood but who may have been born with mental deficiencies, and this can prevent him/her from understanding or comprehending the who/what/why of religions in general, and Jesus in particular.  When these humans die, I think by most Christians perspectives, their souls will go to heaven.  But as with the young, these humans are not self-aware to the point of making a free-will choice to believe Jesus died for their sins.  Also, you have instances out there still today of people living in more remote or isolated parts of the world who have never heard of Jesus - if they die before ever hearing or learning about Jesus before they die, then I think by most Christian perspectives, their souls will go to heaven. 

 

Bottom line to me:  If God is essentially allowing, on a constant basis, SOME human souls to enter heaven without the need to make a free-will choice about Jesus...why not just allow this for ALL?  If heaven is already populated with perhaps billions of souls, why would God not just create ALL souls directly in heaven in the first place?  If earth is supposedly this fallen, corrupt world after Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, then why not just bypass earth and our existence in human bodies altogether?  Especially when God is essentially sending some human souls directly to heaven by default, anyway - without those souls ever being self-aware as humans? 

 

 

Why not go further than that, Ready?

 

Before he created anything - everything existed only as uncreated thoughts in God's mind.  

So He already knew the ultimate fates of everyone he planned to create, saved or unsaved. 

In scriptural terms, the Book of Life already existed, fully completed within God's mind.  

 

So why didn't He only create those people He foreknew would be saved?

 

The others can't have their free will violated - because they never existed.

 

The perfect solution!

 

Nobody suffers and everyone's happy.  

[readyforchange]

 

Why not go further than that, Ready?

 

Before he created anything - everything existed only as uncreated thoughts in God's mind.  

So He already knew the ultimate fates of everyone he planned to create, saved or unsaved. 

In scriptural terms, the Book of Life already existed, fully completed within God's mind.  

 

So why didn't He only create those people He foreknew would be saved?

 

The others can't have their free will violated - because they never existed.

 

The perfect solution!

 

Nobody suffers and everyone's happy.  

 

 

Right, great points.  It would seem that a god that is all-everything and is in complete control is the creator of all the rules, and that god could have only created those people/souls who the god already knows will be saved.  Or the god could just create all souls directly in heaven.  If a god cannot create souls directly in heaven and can ONLY create souls that exist first as humans, then the god cannot, by definition, be all-powerful. 

 

In going back to the Adam and Eve account in Genesis (second creation story), I sometimes wonder what would have occurred if Adam and Eve did NOT get decieved and did NOT eat the fruit from the tree?  Then what?  (These are just rhetorical questions)

 

So, playing out that scenario, Adam and Eve would at some point reproduce and have offspring, to start populating the human race.  Even if Adam and Eve did not eat the forbidden fruit, exactly how long would have been before someone ESLE ate fruit from the tree, anyway, thus still causing the fall of mankind from God?  Cain, Abel, or Seth could have been tempted, and one of them could have eaten the fruit.  Or was the command from God to not eat the fruit for Adam and Eve only?  Then, to expand further, as the human population expands to move beyond the immediate area where the Garden of Eden was, what would have occurred then?  Would there have been additional "gardens of eden" created all around the earth, so that all humans everyone could still have the chance to be "tempted" to eat the fruit from multiple trees?  I believe the human human population on earth today is between 7 - 8 billion.  So...if, by chance, no one ever ate the fruit from the tree through all these generations, then how would we all be living today?  Everyone would be naked (no one wearing any clothes)?  All the men in the world would be working in gardens all day?  And would the entire earth's climate mirror that of ancient Mesopotamia, where it has to be warm enough for humans to survive living without any clothing (no polar regions, no extreme cold or weather conditions)?  I just have a hard time visualizing this. 

[mwc]

Creep,

 

Please note that I was playing Devil's Advocate in my previous post.  These are not my beliefs.  But it's quite likely that these are the beliefs of some of the Christians in this forum.  Please also note that those three Christian arguments are deeply flawed and totally undermined by contradictions within the Bible itself.  A classic example (which exposes the falsity of the need to believe in only Jesus to enter heaven) can be read in Genesis 5 : 24 and Hebrews 11 : 5 & 6.

 

Genesis 5 : 24, NIV.

"Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."

 

Hebrews 11 : 5 & 6, NIV.

"By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death:  'He could not be found because God had taken him away.'  For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.  And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him."

 

See the problem, Creep?

Elsewhere in the Bible it says that salvation (and entry into heaven) is only possible by faith in Jesus.  His is the only name in heaven thru which salvation comes.  Nobody is saved by faith in God the Father.  Nor by faith in God the Holy Spirit.  This is because neither of those persons of the Trinity became the sin sacrifice that Jesus did.  The sin sacrifice that gives salvation.  So calling on the names of the Father or the Holy Spirit cannot bring salvation.  Nor can having faith in either of them.  Only faith in the salvation-bringing sacrifice of Jesus can give you the reward of heaven.

 

Therefore, in Genesis 5 : 24 we have the anti-salvational scenario of Enoch being taken up to heaven by an act of faith in a God who definitely wasn't Jesus  - thousands of years before Jesus Christ, the salvation-bringer, was born of the virgin Mary in Bethlehem!

.

.

.

For a Christian to claim that Enoch actually met Jesus in the book of Genesis is to add to scripture.  

 

For a Christian to claim that the OT God revealed the knowledge of Jesus to Enoch is to also add to scripture.  

 

For a Christian to claim that Enoch's faith enabled him to bypass the need for a savior (Jesus), is heresy.    

.

.

.

It's an unworkable mess that Christians usually resolve by faith, Creep.

 

Blind faith, that is.

.

.

.

Thanks,

 

BAA.

     Yeah, but that's Enoch and, well, we all know Enoch is special and got in on a free preview weekend.

 

     I recall people telling me that Enoch did not go to heaven (though I'm pretty sure there are accounts saying otherwise but I don't believe they are in the canon although I not going to bother to check) but was simply spared having to die in the flood by being killed off early and/or went to "paradise" which is not heaven but the nice part of hell (or wherever they place it...it seems to be in "Abraham's Bosom" from the Lazarus story but it seems up to the apologist).

 

     I remember this all being related to the question of what happened to Elijah.  Did the wind carry him off to be secretly buried somewhere or up to heaven or what?  As long as apologists can keep these questions open then they can shove their crappy answers into the holes they create even when the answers are pretty obvious.

 

          mwc

[bornagainathiest]

That's right, MWC.

 

These half-way houses are fabricated from hints and suggestions and ambiguities in scripture by the apologists to bypass any awkward contradictions between different parts of the Bible - mostly between the Old and the New Testaments.

 

OT says Enoch was taken into heaven by God Himself, without the help of Jesus.

 

NT says that God resides in unapproachable light and has never been seen by anyone (1 Tim 6 : 16)

 

Contradiction!

 

Solution!

Paul mentions THREE heavens in 2 Cor 12 : 2.  Therefore Enoch isn't in the heaven where God resides. 

.

.

.

Yep!

There's a whole industry devoted to churning out these half-assed solutions. 

[StarGazer]

This may be a shot in the dark, but some people seem to believe in Hell as some sort of revenge fantasy.

 

Take my friend, who believes in God and Hell. He's been given a lot of shit from people over the years, and whenever he speaks of them, he speaks about them "receiving their eternal suffering". The way he says it implies he's glad of this 'fact' and that he looks forward to it. Not saying this is the case for all Theists, but it's a possibility.

[yunea]

This may be a shot in the dark, but some people seem to believe in Hell as some sort of revenge fantasy.

 

Take my friend, who believes in God and Hell. He's been given a lot of shit from people over the years, and whenever he speaks of them, he speaks about them "receiving their eternal suffering". The way he says it implies he's glad of this 'fact' and that he looks forward to it. Not saying this is the case for all Theists, but it's a possibility.

Yes, there are certainly anecdotal cases of this kind of thinking at least.

 

One time I told a Xtian friend about a bad thing that someone else had done to me, and she promptly offered to pray with me that the person will end up in hell. 

[NoOne]

 

This may be a shot in the dark, but some people seem to believe in Hell as some sort of revenge fantasy.

 

Take my friend, who believes in God and Hell. He's been given a lot of shit from people over the years, and whenever he speaks of them, he speaks about them "receiving their eternal suffering". The way he says it implies he's glad of this 'fact' and that he looks forward to it. Not saying this is the case for all Theists, but it's a possibility.

 

Yes, there are certainly anecdotal cases of this kind of thinking at least.

 

One time I told a Xtian friend about a bad thing that someone else had done to me, and she promptly offered to pray with me that the person will end up in hell.

Seriously though, can they not fathom how sadistic and psychotic they sound when they say stuff like that? Can really they not turn the religious off and turn their thinking caps on for just two seconds? It's really sickening, wow...

[Guest Furball]

 

OT says Enoch was taken into heaven by God Himself, without the help of Jesus.

 

 

 

Let's not forget samson either. He slayed (murdered) a thousand men, burned down the philistines crops (destruction of another's goods), disobeyed the voice of his parents (dishonoring them) and married a woman of the philistines (god's enemies), slept with a harlot (adultery), ripped off the doors and two posts of a city (destruction of another's property), committed suicide (self murder) while killing (murdering) countless others at his death. 

 

No repentance-no jesus-committed horrible crimes (sins) and landed in god's 'faith' hall of fame. Saved and in heaven right now with no repentance or help from the christ-man.

 

 

 Then went Samson to Gaza, and saw there an harlot, and went in unto her. Judges 16:1